ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

[James Pike]

Star Trek VI treats the characters horribly.

-Kirk is suddenly turned into a racist Klingon-hater, totally at odds with the guy seen in TOS and as recently as STV. It's out of character. Remember hpw he treated Kruge and Maltz, so shortly after David's death? He offered his hand to the guy who ordered his son's death. He drank with Klingons in STV.

Kirk can still be mad at Klingons. He specifically states that he can never forgive them for the death of his son.

-Spock graphically mind rapes Valaris in the middle of the bridge, and everyone just watches. Nobody tries to stop him. I pretty much pretend this scene never happened, since the way they played it, Spock might as well have bent her over the helm and everyone else is an asshole for just sitting there and allowing it to happen. Out of character for Spock and everyone else.

I think this was a more the end justified the means situation.

-McCoy doesn't know Klingon anatomy. Klingons have been the Federation's #1 enemy for a century, yet the Enterprise doctor knows nothing? No way.

Why would he know it? He might have files on them, but he needs to know humans,vulcans and other species that serve on the ship. No need for him to know an enemy.

-Uhura doesn't speak Klingon? The communications officer of the Enterprise doesn't know the language of the Federation's #1 rival for the past century? Despite several dealings with them beforehand?
They've had dealings with them, but she's not going to fluent in Klingon.

-Spock(again) talks with Jim about them both being old and useless. Spock is half-Vulcan, and wasn't close to middle-age at the time.

Spock may have felt old since he had served in star fleet for as long as Kirk, and had seen a lot of action. Perhaps he wanted a change in life?


And FWIW, this film ignores "Yesterday's Enterprise", which had previously established that the event leading to peace with the Klingons was the heroic sacrifice of the Enterprise-C 20 years prior to The Next Generation. It prevented a war which the Federation would have lost. Compare with the Praxis explosion crippling the Empire, which had no choice but to sue for peace.

It's possible that after khitomer, something happened to reignite hostilities.


Instead of writing a story to fit the characters, they changed the characters to suit their story. A lot of Trek has done that over the years, but never so blatantly as in STVI.

I replied within your quote.
But mainly you have to understand that there is a lot of history to consider with Star Trek, and many different writers. To them their job is to create an entertaining story for a wide audience.

I really enjoyed STVI

 

[Sky]

You see his reaction in TSFS, referring to them as "Klingon bastards," instead of "bastards," which implies (strongly) using their species name as a pejorative (the way a white racist would say "n***** bastard" instead of the latter, which would have been enough for one without racist intent). Add his TOS behavior in "Errand of Mercy," "Friday's Child," and general tone in "A Private Little War," and he does not seem to be the biggest fan of Klingons, or even tries to imagine part of the race may not be like the military end he faced.

With David's murder, his undercurrent of hostility evolves into its full-on, racist form. His behavior in TFF was more about putting up with them until he could separate from them.

You and EliyahuQeoni have excellent points. I never understood why it would be inconceivable for Kirk to be prejudiced towards Klingons. He's not a perfect man, by any means. He's fought them his whole life and lost his own son to them. Of course it'd be great if he could see outside his own experience a bit sooner and lose his prejudice, but he's flawed, he's human. And I've always found humans more interesting than paragons.

(I also find Vulcans more interesting than paragons and thus would really have liked Saavik's story arch to end in TUC with her being the traitor. That would have had emotional impact.)

 

[Chrisisall]

[
(I also find Vulcans more interesting than paragons and thus would really have liked Saavik's story arch to end in TUC with her being the traitor. That would have had emotional impact.)

It would have, but I prefer the way they did it, because I *liked* Robin's Saavik. Call me simplistic.

 

[Marsden]

"Jim, I don't even know his anatomy."

Is that odd to anyone else?

How many times did Dr McCoy act like he didn't know Spock's anatomy? I know he always managed to get him through, but compare that line to his about Sarek in Journey to Babel.

 

[JamesRye]

"Jim, I don't even know his anatomy."

Is that odd to anyone else?



Not really, he was put on the spot and was shaky and scared. He probably didn't have experience operating on a Klingon and realised that Gorkon was beyond help. I expect that the guy knew the anatomy of numerous Federation species, but lacked a full grasp of Klingon anatomy.

http://ryesofthegeek.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/star-trek-vi-the-undiscovered-country-film-review/

 

[trevanian]

Going by McCoy's trial statements about being desperate to save him for the sake of peace, it is EASY for me to believe McCoy was genuinely panicked ... it seems out of character compared to how he was when treating the horta (and he SURE didn't understand that character's physiology to any detailed degree), but there wasn't quite as much at stake (well, preventing genocide is pretty big too, come to think of it ... )

The series-era McCoy was cooler under pressure (and for me, the most admirable character, because he stood with his friends in really bad circumstances even though he clearly did not have the resources to defend himself as they did -- something that they got seriously right in STAR TREK 5 when he faces down 'God' after seeing the punishments meted out to K & S.)

But the movie era McCoy, while not having an EMPATH moment or anything quite as good as his cell conversation with Spock in BREAD & CIRCUSES, is really deep. You have him talking to unconscious Spock in SFS and all the levels are peeled back there, indicating some serious level of life fatigue.

I wouldn't call McCoy's TUC character assassination ... not like it is for Kirk and (to some degree) Spock. I think Shatner's mannerism (cut by Meyer) during the 'let them die' speech would have helped preserve real Kirk to a degree, but the movie is more of an agenda with the characters bent and twisted a little to fit that agenda.

It works, but I kinda don't like that it works. Sort of how I feel about the Valeris forced meld, in fact.

 

[DonIago]

Well, there's also the fact that McCoy's older in TUC, and as noted, there's more at stake than usual. It's possible a TOS-aged McCoy would have handled it otherwise.

 

[Leto_II]

And FWIW, this film ignores "Yesterday's Enterprise", which had previously established that the event leading to peace with the Klingons was the heroic sacrifice of the Enterprise-C 20 years prior to The Next Generation. It prevented a war which the Federation would have lost. Compare with the Praxis explosion crippling the Empire, which had no choice but to sue for peace.

Not really, re: the film ignoring "Yesterday's Enterprise."

Remember that the episode never explicitly mentions that the Narendra III incident was ever "the only" significant event which led to peace with the Klingon Empire; it was merely the most recent such one by the timeframe of TNG.

Such a peace process would, by its very nature, have been a long, protracted one, drawn out across a number of decades before reaching the state of affairs we first witness in "Encounter at Farpoint," and wouldn't have occurred instantly overnight, regardless of how significant either events were in isolation from one another.

The Khitomer peace conference was a huge, unprecedented step in cementing that process, as was, ironically, Narendra III six decades later, but only both taken together could have brought about the political situation finally experienced by both powers in the era of the Enterprise-D.

some handwave explaination of Kirk's sudden racism (like, say, Peter's ship is ambushed and he's killed leaving Kirk with no family at all) etc.

It's been a long time since I've read it, but I think in the novel Chang's Bird of Prey had been attacking Federation or civilian outposts basically before the movie starts. Carol Marcus was on one them and Kirk goes and visits her in the hospital afterwards which sort of reopens the David wound. I think at the end of the novel he goes back to her and has a different outlook as she's making her recovery. I have no idea if any of that was ever intended to be part of the script or if it was an invention of the author.

It came from the author, J.M. Dillard, who more often than not came up with some very interesting offscreen backstory material for the films she was novelizing, including additional material on General Chang's Bird-of-Prey, its test-run operations prior to the Praxis explosion, and what happened with Carol Marcus on the UFP colony world selected as a weapons-test target by Chang and his group.

It certainly adds plausibility to the whole notion that Kirk would suddenly harbor virulent feelings towards the Klingon race, but there's also another TOS novel, In the Name of Honor by Dayton Ward (set not long after the events of The Final Frontier) which truly sets the stage for Kirk's abrupt change of political opinion in the sixth film.

Among other things, it depicts

Spoiler: In the Name of Honor

the Klingon massacre of a prison planet population, indirectly ordered by Chancellor Gorkon, as well as Kirk's horror and disgust over the incident,

and is simply a must-read in its own right.

 

[Commishsleer]

Isn't everyone being a bit tough on McCoy?

Aren't there like 100s of different species in the Federation?

I'd expect him to concentrate on knowing their anatomy before that of an enemy.

He's only human. I'd expect the EMH to know it and Bashir but Crusher and McCoy not to be an expert on everything. Crusher should know it because she's got a Klingon as crew.

Even your local vet would not be able to say fix an elephant without consulting an expert or looking up some books. Its not something he or she is ever likely to encounter in a general practice.
Its ridiculous that McCoy doesn't know much about Vulcan physiology though but thats probably got a lot to do with Vulcan's being so secretive about things.

I'm a computer programmer but it would be like sending me a job and telling me to fix a computer that I had no experience in. I can't know every computer system and language in the world. Thats why I laugh to myself when Spock or Scott or Geordi come across alien technology and are experts in it straight away

 

[Melakon]

. . .Thats why I laugh to myself when Spock or Scott or Geordi come across alien technology and are experts in it straight away

Yeah, it's never anything where they come across a strange alien ship or alien control system and...

LaForge: This looks like the primary interphase modulator here.

*click*

Computer Voice: Self-destruct activated. Detonation in 5 seconds.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I've never had any problem with Chang's explanation: Age combined with drink.

He was three months away from retirement suddenly and very unexpectedly thrown into a very high stakes mission for which he was not properly prepared, and after a night of heavy drinking finds himself trying to save a man's life without knowing exactly what is necessary to save him in the first place (again, as has been stated, there's no particular reason to believe anyone in the entire Federation would have the necessary knowledge to save Gorkon's life).

I also don't see much canon issue with Kirk seriously mistrusting Klingons (really, I find the 'racist' label somewhat overstated even within the story of TUC), or with Spock being willing to force someone to answer questions.

I understand why some would've liked the Valeris character to have actually been Saavik (I always thought this was simply because the actress wasn't available, or is that not the case?), but I don't see any reason to call Spock's reaction to her out of character. Just because we never saw Valeris before doesn't mean Spock couldn't have a very signicant relationship with her.

 

[ChowdaHead]

I'm watching The Undiscovered Country again and it just strikes me as out of character for McCoy after Klingon Chancellor Gorkon is shot and McCoy is working on him and says:

"Jim, I don't even know his anatomy."

To me, that's not like McCoy at all. I would have thought Bones would have been able to pull a rabbit out of his hat as usual and for him not to be ready for alien visitors and be ready to treat anything from a scraped knee (do Klingons have knees?) to an allergic reaction to the food is just strange. Did Starfleet send them out unprepared? Was McCoy slacking as he got towards retirement? Was McCoy bigoted? Or was McCoy not prepared for Kirk to even ask the Klingons to dinner and never expected to have to treat one?

Is that odd to anyone else?

not odd to me at all. wouldnt you be in some sort of a shock after realizing youre being set up. your ship just fired on the klingons that you just had over for dinner, and you have no proof at all that you arent the culprit. in fact, everything points to you. he beams aboard the Kronos 1, sees death EVERYWHERE, and the chancellor is on the verge of passing away! so, after offering to help the poor guy, he realizes his anatomy is not what he is used to opperating on. he works for Starfleet. his job is to repair the human body, and any other species on board his ship. anything else is secondary. also, its not like he has had much practice time with the klingon anatomy. they are after all, up to that time, well known enemies.

 

[Chrisisall]

^^^ These two posts!
Well said, guys.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Chrisisall...is that..is that you?

 

[Chrisisall]

Chrisisall...is that..is that you?

Holy crap! You're here too?
With all that Eagle build stuff I never realized you were a Trek fan!

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Chrisisall...is that..is that you?

Holy crap! You're here too?
With all that Eagle build stuff I never realized you were a Trek fan!

Oh yeah! For lack of a better term, it's a first love!

I'm new as of about a week ago!

 

[Chrisisall]

Oh yeah! For lack of a better term, it's a first love!

Well, TUC is a Love of mine- I love all the original cast Trek movies (some more than others), but TUC just floors me every time. What a way to go out.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Well, TUC is a Love of mine- I love all the original cast Trek movies (some more than others), but TUC just floors me every time. What a way to go out.

To be honest, I only think I saw it once! I know..I should be flogged for that!

I definitely need to check it out again.

 

[Chrisisall]

I definitely need to check it out again.

Just go to the fridge or the bathroom during the Klingon translation scene,. Rien?

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

The series-era McCoy was cooler under pressure (and for me, the most admirable character, because he stood with his friends in really bad circumstances even though he clearly did not have the resources to defend himself as they did -- something that they got seriously right in STAR TREK 5 when he faces down 'God' after seeing the punishments meted out to K & S.)

Truer words were never spoken!

Even in Space Seed, with McCoy standing up to Khan (with a knife at his throat, no less!), "Well, either choke me or cut my throat, make up your mind!" , and "It would be most effective if you cut the carotid artery, just under the left ear." He had to be the bravest of the cast in many ways.

If skinny little me is ever confronted with such danger, I hope to be able to channel McCoy!