ST Into Darkness I wondered this.

[Gingerbread Demon]

Something I have wondered the last week or two having watched this movie again. Thomas Harewood's child was sick but we don't really have much more background information on that and I wondered if she was made sick so that Khan could then offer his cure for her to get Thomas to blow up the Section 31 building..

 

[Khan 2.0]

Interesting, it does seem convenient so possible Marcus was behind it.

Other ID stuff I wondered:

-Why didn't Marcus grab a phaser and kill khan when khan was giving Kirk a beatdown instead of attempting to flee from the bridge (none of the bridge crew packing? no emergency phaser compartment on the bridge? ..he couldn't he find one of the 3 dropped in time?..) .. if he had he could've taken down khan again (either stunned if one of the dropped phasers or killed if hed got a Vengeance phaser) and then I guess would've beamed him, Kirk & Scotty back to enterprise and destroyed it

-What happened to the Vengeance crew ? (maybe khan beamed them into open space to join the big guy Scotty expelled)

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Interesting, it does seem convenient so possible Marcus was behind it.

Other ID stuff I wondered:

-Why didn't Marcus grab a phaser and kill khan when khan was giving Kirk a beatdown instead of attempting to flee from the bridge (none of the bridge crew packing? no emergency phaser compartment on the bridge? ..he couldn't he find one of the 3 dropped in time?..) .. if he had he could've taken down khan again (either stunned if one of the dropped phasers or killed if hed got a Vengeance phaser) and then I guess would've beamed him, Kirk & Scotty back to enterprise and destroyed it

-What happened to the Vengeance crew ? (maybe khan beamed them into open space to join the big guy Scotty expelled)

Actually I had thought maybe not Marcus but Khan made the child sick, but if it was Marcus that also makes for an interesting thought or two.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Actually I had thought maybe not Marcus but Khan made the child sick, but if it was Marcus that also makes for an interesting thought or two.

Oh yeah by that time khan was rogue so it'd be him if so

 

[Timo]

Well, the movie has rogue and "rogue". Part of Marcus' plan to ignite a war with the Klingons would no doubt have involved "Agent Harrison" doing nasty things and then escaping to the Klingon homeworld - perhaps so that Marcus could vector a hothead patsy like Kirk to hit him hard and thus ignite the war, perhaps to cater for some other sort of violent action (but the Kirk option readily presented itself, so there we go).

So everything Khan did until that point could have been on Marcus' direct behest, up to and including strafing the Starfleet top brass Godfather III style and mowing down all of Marcus' opponents while not harming a hair in the Admiral's head. And raiding S31 and then waving at the CCTV camera with the supertransporter bag prominently in his hand would thus have been in Khan's Marcus-dictated itinerary as well: otherwise, how could anybody know that "Harrison" was on the Klingon homeworld?

It would then follow that Marcus also wanted Khan to bomb S31. But it could have been up to Khan to select the method, and he might have done things to the Harewood kid, or then merely found out about her and exploited the situation. The latter is more likely, given the timeline: there would be too little time to create an illness that the parents would accept as incurable.

In what scenario would Marcus not have wanted Khan to bomb S31? How could "Harrison" be exploited to ignite the war if he wasn't seen doing something awfully bad? Sending a "clean" agent to do so, or firing at Klingons for no legal reason, would apparently not be valid methods for Marcus to launch the war.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Well, the movie has rogue and "rogue". Part of Marcus' plan to ignite a war with the Klingons would no doubt have involved "Agent Harrison" doing nasty things and then escaping to the Klingon homeworld - perhaps so that Marcus could vector a hothead patsy like Kirk to hit him hard and thus ignite the war, perhaps to cater for some other sort of violent action (but the Kirk option readily presented itself, so there we go).

So everything Khan did until that point could have been on Marcus' direct behest, up to and including strafing the Starfleet top brass Godfather III style and mowing down all of Marcus' opponents while not harming a hair in the Admiral's head. And raiding S31 and then waving at the CCTV camera with the supertransporter bag prominently in his hand would thus have been in Khan's Marcus-dictated itinerary as well: otherwise, how could anybody know that "Harrison" was on the Klingon homeworld?

It would then follow that Marcus also wanted Khan to bomb S31. But it could have been up to Khan to select the method, and he might have done things to the Harewood kid, or then merely found out about her and exploited the situation. The latter is more likely, given the timeline: there would be too little time to create an illness that the parents would accept as incurable.

In what scenario would Marcus not have wanted Khan to bomb S31? How could "Harrison" be exploited to ignite the war if he wasn't seen doing something awfully bad? Sending a "clean" agent to do so, or firing at Klingons for no legal reason, would apparently not be valid methods for Marcus to launch the war.

Timo Saloniemi

Oh see that's interesting...... It fits with the movie too.

 

[The Wormhole]

Thomas Harewood's child was sick but we don't really have much more background information on that and I wondered if she was made sick so that Khan could then offer his cure for her to get Thomas to blow up the Section 31 building..

I doubt it. Not everything has to be part of a cunning masterplan. It's far more likely that Khan reviewed the information available on the personnel assigned to the Kelvin Archives looking for a weakness to exploit. When reading about Thomas Harewood and the fact his daughter had an incurable and presumably terminal ailment, one that Augment blood could cure, Khan saw his weak link to exploit.

 

[Timo]

The movie has two different takes on this. As written, it included a scene where it is shown that Marcus is surprised by Harewood's decision to suicide-bomb the facility (the man phones the Admiral just before dropping the ring in the glass of water). This could establish that Marcus didn't expect Khan to destroy the facility; or it could establish that Marcus was surprised by Khan's method for fulfilling the Admiral's orders.

As presented, with that scene shot but then completely cut, the movie gives no hint that Marcus would be surprised by any of the actions of "Agent Harrison", including the bombing, the strafing of the Starfleet bigwigs, or the escape to Qo'noS. It's only after Khan's true identity is revealed to the audience that he appears to go truly rogue, moving from helping out Marcus under duress (or pretending to), to openly trying to defeat him (and succeeding).

"Cunning masterplan" is what the movie was all about. It had not just one cunning master criminal but two, both enamored with their own intellect and plotting against each other. Khan's plot had to be byzantine, to pass under Marcus' radar; Marcus' plot was megalomaniac but had to be clandestine to a degree because megalomaniac just wouldn't do even for the Boss of Bosses of all Starfleet. So wheels within wheels automatically followed; whether the audience could follow, too, was less automatic...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

-What happened to the Vengeance crew ? (maybe khan beamed them into open space to join the big guy Scotty expelled)

The Vengeance was designed to operate with a minimum of crew. (IIRC, it could even function with NO crew other than a captain.) So for all we know, the only crew it had were the ones we saw.

In any case, those who weren't killed on impact were probably taken into custody. Although, being the slimy Section 31 types they were, some of them could have gotten away amidst the chaos.

 

[Timo]

The heroes appeared confident that nobody could have survived the crash. That is, unless one was Khan.

But that's a bit academic. It would also seem likely that when Kirk, Scotty and Khan were fighting their way to the bridge, the first two tried to punch their opponents into submission or fire on them on stun, while Khan would have made sure to kill everybody he came in contact with. And since Khan basically took care of all the assailants of Kirk and Scotty, too, the trio in all likelihood left a trail of dead bodies behind them. The only ones alive would have been the ones stunned by Kirk and Scotty on the bridge, and Khan would not have allowed them to live much beyond that point.

Since Khan was all about inflicting remote death after gaining control of the Vengeance, he would probably also have taken the further step of sterilizing the ship somehow, with a proper command to the compliant computer. He certainly wouldn't want an authorized crew member taking back control by sweet-talking said computer!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

And Khan was pretty brutal smashing Marcus skull like that and breaking Carol's leg.

Mind you I would have loved the twist had they had Khan be a good guy in the end but they were stupid and basically copied TWOK

 

[Tosk]

I doubt it. Not everything has to be part of a cunning masterplan. It's far more likely that Khan reviewed the information available on the personnel assigned to the Kelvin Archives looking for a weakness to exploit. When reading about Thomas Harewood and the fact his daughter had an incurable and presumably terminal ailment, one that Augment blood could cure, Khan saw his weak link to exploit.

And if there had been no exploitable weaknesses? I have no doubt that Khan would engineer a problem that he alone could solve. Personally, I think it makes more sense that he caused the illness, not less. He would also have chosen the parent most likely to react the way he wanted them to. (Not everyone would kill so many people just for the promise of a cure for their child. And of those who would, only a percentage would still go through with it after the cure had been supplied.)

 

[fireproof78]

Mind you I would have loved the twist had they had Khan be a good guy in the end but they were stupid and basically copied TWOK

How in the world would that work? People were already complaining that Khan wasn't accurate to the character from TOS. Having him be some kind of benevolent ally would have so many outcries, and that's saying something for Into Darkness...

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

How in the world would that work? People were already complaining that Khan wasn't accurate to the character from TOS. Having him be some kind of benevolent ally would have so many outcries, and that's saying something for Into Darkness...

It would work however the writers wanted it to work

I like the movie as it is though. Didn't care much for Trek 2009 but like Into Darkness and Beyond

 

[fireproof78]

It would work however the writers wanted it to work

I like the movie as it is though. Didn't care much for Trek 2009 but like Into Darkness and Beyond

Given how Khan was criticized despite the writers efforts I'm going to go with no...it wouldn't have worked.

And, also, how would it be consistent with Khan in the past? He was a megalomaniac!

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Given how Khan was criticized despite the writers efforts I'm going to go with no...it wouldn't have worked.

And, also, how would it be consistent with Khan in the past? He was a megalomaniac!

Well hey different universe and all that....... I was just thinking what it might have been if they had done a 180 with Khan part way through the movie.

 

[fireproof78]

Well hey different universe and all that....... I was just thinking what it might have been if they had done a 180 with Khan part way through the movie.

I'm not saying it wouldn't have been fun but also fairly unbelivable.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I'm not saying it wouldn't have been fun but also fairly unbelivable.

I quite agree.

I still wonder how much Marcus and Khan new about what the other was doing.

 

[Timo]

I'd say Khan was as benevolent as he could get in that movie. He was forming alliances of convenience, and in doing so, he was actually saving redshirt lives left and right even when he might just as well have killed. That is, he got on Kirk's better side by actively protecting Uhura and Spock and other random scum against the Klingons; by never killing an Enterprise guard even though he could have; and even by helping Kirk survive the flotsam field on the way to the Vengeance. None of that was actually necessary for him, as he could have gotten aboard Kirk's ship even with Uhura and Spock slain; would have been consulted even if he displayed displeasure with his escort, killed seven armed redshirts and then yawned; and would have taken control of Marcus' ship even without Kirk's "help".

The bits about him supposedly wanting to kill the inferior were but hollow propaganda, not corroborated by events or other Trek appearances. Khan always was about controlling the inferior and having them worship his superior muscles and wit. And micromanaging the plot for/against Marcus, by carefully targeting Harewood in some needlessly byzantine scheme, might appeal to him, too: it would be a form of control involving superior intellect.

But as said, making the Harewoods think the illness was incurable would take time. A random charlatan making suggestions on the hospital balcony would probably only be taken seriously after years, not mere months, of desperation. (And never mind that Trek technology can put diseases on hold basically indefinitely, by freezing the patient - although not literally, since that technology was declared ancient and bizarre by McCoy - so the desperation would really need time to set in before snake oil started to sound appealing.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Hey by the time McCoy rolls around they have a pill that can grow a new kidney. That's some high tech medicine if you ask me, and does it in seconds ST IV