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ST:DISC's greatest failing...yes this is TOS related

Dale Sams

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
I'm watching Mudd's Women again...and man do i love those early eps. Serious frontier episodes. Lots of Sci-fi. All kinds of wonky details. Women growing up on automated planets only with their families. Miners who can buy entire planets.....things like that. The galaxy *feels* empty.

So they set DISCO before TOS and the most disappointing thing is they didn't jump feet first into that kind of setting.

Not slamming DISCO, just saying its a missed opportunity.
 
I like DSC as much as TOS (something I never said about any of the Berman series, so this is pretty high praise coming from me), but I'm still glad they've jumped DSC 1,000 years into The Future. DSC's premise was the least dependent on it being a prequel.
 
I like DSC as much as TOS (something I never said about any of the Berman series, so this is pretty high praise coming from me), but I'm still glad they've jumped DSC 1,000 years into The Future. DSC's premise was the least dependent on it being a prequel.

Agreed about the premise not needing to be a prequel. Not only that but they were unwilling to put in the work (at least in S1) to convince the viewer to the slightest degree that this was set before TOS.
 
OTOH, how is the galaxy not "empty" in DSC? More a topic for that forum, but the pilot shows the Klingons as a truly unknown menace, the frontier as a lonely place, and even the Vulcans as more mysterious and surprising than ever. And then we get spores, water bears and gormaganders, oh my, and nary a fellow starship in sight to assist our (admittedly deliberately reclusive) heroes.

That there is little reference to TOS is a key element in once again creating the "empty" impression: the universe is not small and Kirk isn't lurking behind every corner.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Agreed about the premise not needing to be a prequel. Not only that but they were unwilling to put in the work (at least in S1) to convince the viewer to the slightest degree that this was set before TOS.
When the series was first going into production, I heard rumors (which turned out not to be true) that it would take place after TUC. It wasn't a deal-breaker for me but that would've been my first choice, personally. Not 10 years before TOS. But it's a moot point and water under the bridge given when the series will take place from now on.

If they wanted to avoid the TNG Era, having it after Star Trek VI would've been a good compromise. It would've been set closer to TOS but still take place after it. If you watch TUC, then watch DSC and pretend it takes place 25 years after that movie, it works. I know because I tried it once.
 
OTOH, how is the galaxy not "empty" in DSC? More a topic for that forum, but the pilot shows the Klingons as a truly unknown menace, the frontier as a lonely place, and even the Vulcans as more mysterious and surprising than ever. And then we get spores, water bears and gormaganders, oh my, and nary a fellow starship in sight to assist our (admittedly deliberately reclusive) heroes.

That there is little reference to TOS is a key element in once again creating the "empty" impression: the universe is not small and Kirk isn't lurking behind every corner.

Timo Saloniemi

Well except for the pilot when some 50 (?) ships show up....

Not that i have a problem with that....the Klingon border, like the Romulan should be close to the heart of the Federation.

Edit: I DID like the wackiness of the failed sister ship of DISC.
 
I've always wondered why these new shows have to be set before TOS (look at Enterprise too) setting the show in a future time is the only way forward with any Trek series! Why put your show in a slot where you have to tick boxes left over from the original? Set your show after TNG and you can do what you like with it!!! New troubles with the Klingons, Romulan aggression in their new spacial borders, new enemies, old friends become enemies! Space propulsion theories don't have to tally with what went before in this new age! Maybe the Federation doesn't exist anymore and Starfleet isn't the total force for good it was anymore? Plus who of us fans could moan? I know we would but we wouldn't condemn the show from day one because it contradicts the premise of the first series or replaces beloved characters and actors without a word of explanation!!! But they think they know so, so much better than us and it's that arrogance that bites into our bones as it were! :brickwall:
JB
 
Origin stories are all the fad, because people don't really like new. And because people really like things to be explained to satisfaction.

It thus doesn't pay, literally, to go forward. And we should probably count our blessings here, what with having an extensive and expansive franchise that can afford to insert some forward motion every now and then, against financial wisdom.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'm watching Mudd's Women again...and man do i love those early eps. Serious frontier episodes. Lots of Sci-fi. All kinds of wonky details. Women growing up on automated planets only with their families. Miners who can buy entire planets.....things like that. The galaxy *feels* empty.

So they set DISCO before TOS and the most disappointing thing is they didn't jump feet first into that kind of setting.

Not slamming DISCO, just saying its a missed opportunity.

See, here's the thing...While this might be "TOS related" this is clearly a discussion of DSC. Your post is a critique of DSC, not TOS, so it really shouldn't be in this forum.

If there's some organic way to steer it to a TOS topic, I'll give you a chance, otherwise I'll move or close it.

Thanks
 
See, here's the thing...While this might be "TOS related" this is clearly a discussion of DSC. Your post is a critique of DSC, not TOS, so it really shouldn't be in this forum.

If there's some organic way to steer it to a TOS topic, I'll give you a chance, otherwise I'll move or close it.

Thanks

I'm surprised people feel that way...since the bulk of the post was about Mudds Women with a few details about other early eps. But you can move it if you want. I have no antipathy towards DISCO

Edit: Yeah, ok i reread it, and see that the "theme" is about DISCO. I was hoping there would be more compare and contrast with early TOS though and maybe some back and forth on "Mudds Women"...Hell, Kirk has about 30 minutes before the Enterprise goes careening into the atmosphere, and he's running placebo experiments.
 
Westerns simply aren’t as popular now. Discovery doesn’t really reflect TOS, as use its assets to tell the type of stories that are popular now.

Smart business decision, but has left me underwhelmed.
 
I'm surprised people feel that way...since the bulk of the post was about Mudds Women with a few details about other early eps. But you can move it if you want. I have no antipathy towards DISCO

Edit: Yeah, ok i reread it, and see that the "theme" is about DISCO. I was hoping there would be more compare and contrast with early TOS though and maybe some back and forth on "Mudds Women"...Hell, Kirk has about 30 minutes before the Enterprise goes careening into the atmosphere, and he's running placebo experiments.

It's not a big deal. I'll leave it here for now. Just so you understand the thinking here going forward.

Thanks
 
DISCO was an unnecessary prequel. Let me be clear that I'm not saying DISCO is without merit. I like the series though I wish it hadn't made the unforced errors it did right out the starting gate, and a lot of that came from making the series a prequel. I agree with those who feel that DISCO's premise didn't necessitate for the series to be a prequel. If it had been set after Nemesis, I think it might have been better received overall, even from a number of it's detractors right now.

ENT honored the prequel concept better, especially in DISCO's first season. I get the strong attraction of nostalgia, but that's the issue with a lot of these reboots, sidequels, or what have you. Its like they want the glow of nostalgia but then don't want to fully embrace that nostalgia. And I get it, they want and need space to create and add their own touch to things and not feel burdened by trying to cross every 't' and dot every 'i' to make their series fit with TOS or whatever established franchise. Also, it's less risk averse to do a prequel and the Abrams-Lin films proved there was still some interest in the TOS era.

All that being said, from a creative standpoint, of having a Trek series truly for this era, I wish they had set DISCO after Nemesis. Almost nothing major in the series would've even needed to be changed. The main sticking point would be Burnham being Sarek's daughter and Spock's sister. Though depending on when you set the series, Michael could've still been in his adopted daughter, it would've just been the older Sarek. Or she could've been Tuvok's adopted daughter.

Making DISCO a prequel was the easy route. They decided to swaddled themselves in nostalgia, yet make so many changes that it failed to deliver enough on the promised nostalgia.

In some ways Picard is better at being a Trek for today, though for me the writing, story, and tonal changes are too jarring. So even there, I wish they had just made DISCO the series after Nemesis, and perhaps Jean-Luc could've been the special guest star in their season 2 instead of Pike and Spock. Heck, Burnham could've been Sisko and Kassidy's daughter, and that would've more naturally tied her to an established Star Trek hero without it feeling as shoehorned in. In many ways DISCO feels more like a successor to DS9 than a prequel to TOS anyway.
 
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Basically, DSC is just a show that happens at a specific point of the fictional timeline. We get to see Pike and Spock, but otherwise there's not much "pre" going on. I don't see why this specific fictional era should have been out of bounds, or required to introduce specific story elements; the universe is big enough for us to skip the Kirks and the Garths and the Things That Led To Sherman's Planet Being Contested.

Are DSC and TOS different animals here? TOS isn't dependent on what came before, of course - but DSC doesn't owe much to what came before, be it before the 2010s airing or the 2250s setting. Both tell stories that only have consequences if some future writer decides to examine those consequences. And we don't yet know whether DSC will get such, but that's not enough to set it apart from TOS, not yet.

I don't see nostalgia as much of an element, except as a brief experiment in S2. It has now been outsourced to the Pike show, which no doubt will actually strive to make something out of it. Prequels need not involve nostalgia, though. They're just one element in franchising, where hanging on to sameness is not limited to nostalgia at all. I expect the S31 show, if ever made, to also be its own thing, even if falling within a timeline slot.

I'd have no objection to a show dealing with the 2240s next, as long as it were sufficiently jarring (say, about space cops, or galactic lowlife, or the problems of colonizing a hellhole, or whatnot). The timeline slot isn't all that relevant when we really shouldn't expect to hear about connectivity, not in a franchise that started out with TOS, the one where arch-enemies suddenly popped into existence without apology, and moved on to TNG; where ongoing wars went unmentioned until mentioned.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Does the idea of a family isolated on an automated farming planet or a group of miners isolated on a distant planet work for today's Star Trek? Is that a quaint holdover from the 60s when Trek was more closely modeled off the Western genre with it's isolated pioneer settlements?

A single family setting out to colonize the North American frontier in the 18th to 19th centuries makes sense when you look at the scale involved. A single family only a few hundred miles away from civilization and support. Now contrast that to settling a distant planet several hundred light years away. The cost ratio of such an endeavor is several times what the cost ratio would be for a pioneer settling the American west. Any colony settlement would more likely be a small community and not an isolated family.

At least, that is how it feels. TOS Trek kept the feel of the western. Modern Trek has abandoned that feel.
 
DISCO was an unnecessary prequel. Let me be clear that I'm not saying DISCO is without merit. I like the series though I wish it hadn't made the unforced errors it did right out the starting gate, and a lot of that came from making the series a prequel. I agree with those who feel that DISCO's premise didn't necessitate for the series to be a prequel. If it had been set after Nemesis, I think it might have been better received overall, even from a number of it's detractors right now.

Definitions may vary but what does a prequel do? (I think they fill in gaps, expand on potentially interesting characters, and answer questions introduced by the progenitor series preceding them despite taking place in the timeline's future.)

DSC could have worked from the get-go. If there were fewer sci-fi ideas being used, it would have fit in more easily for sure. I agree in that its biggest flaw is that it felt a need to be a prequel, but it's not really doing anything in the previous era that amounts to worldbuilding. It's using what later series did build, often inconsistently if not clumsily. Doesn't mean they're bad (of what I'd seen, the mirror Lorca isn't half bad and the mirror Killy Tilly is kinda cool... heck, having DSC been between TOS and TNG would alone have been better than being before TOS... But others, like Mudd, are another story and not in the good pile. )

ENT honored the prequel concept better,

It is filling gaps, though not all needed to be there. I put ENT and DSC on the same level, they don't do anything that TOS onward already explained with enough tone and content. YMMV, however.

especially in DISCO's first season. I get the strong attraction of nostalgia, but that's the issue with a lot of these reboots, sidequels, or what have you. Its like they want the glow of nostalgia but then don't want to fully embrace that nostalgia.

Only when convenient? In the Trek universe, things looked and acted in a certain way. DS9 had one episode that went to the 1701 ship and didn't take anything out of proportion. But that was season 4 DS9, set 30 years after TOS and back when Trek as a whole was more in the cultural zeitgeist. It's over 30 years since the 1990s, over 50 since TOS, and the gulf is so wide that some aesthetics are just impossible to blend in. But throwing in a ship with multiple rotating discs in its saucer.... it's like throwing a Core i7 processor into an 80286 socket. Doesn't work. DSC's corridors and bridge work fine and well, but the rotating bits just look like a future innovation. Unless the show is in its own separate timeline or realm. May as well take Freddy Krueger and tell kids he's Barney the big thick purple Dinosaur's new co-host. Now there's some genre mixing...

And I get it, they want and need space to create and add their own touch to things and not feel burdened by trying to cross every 't' and dot every 'i' to make their series fit with TOS or whatever established franchise. Also, it's less risk averse to do a prequel and the Abrams-Lin films proved there was still some interest in the TOS era.

Yeah, the corridors and bridge were just fine. At least for me, YMMV. "Black alert" is probably for solely section 31 ships and pawning all of DSC as being section 31 can adequately cover most issues, but waiting forever to reveal that just isn't going to work. It's an interesting attempt but waiting all that time. Maybe the audience just had to accept it at face value and later get told the trick. Is that the best way to do narrative storytelling, as a prequel in a franchise with a lot of lore (of which a lot trying to answer questions via prequels and such would only make more problems - VOY tried this with the Borg in spots and it failed there too, even in retconning itself.)

All that being said, from a creative standpoint, of having a Trek series truly for this era, I wish they had set DISCO after Nemesis. Almost nothing major in the series would've even needed to be changed. The main sticking point would be Burnham being Sarek's daughter and Spock's sister. Though depending on when you set the series, Michael could've still been in his adopted daughter, it would've just been the older Sarek. Or she could've been Tuvok's adopted daughter.

Sarek's adopted daughter is just fine. Sybok being Spock's half-brother also came out nowhere. But what would make the shoehorning in of Sybok comparatively successful? (STV was not a prequel, and Sybok isn't a human that bests every lasts Vulcan in their version of the SAT in some incredibly naff dialogue as faux means to generate interest... Despite how Michael being the reverse of the same trope Sybok is, which is actually an inspired one - since Sybok was a Vulcan who wanted to be more human-like so here's Michael, a human who wants to be Vulcan... which is not a bad idea by any means. But how many more siblings are there, and are they named Jan, Marcia, Cindy, Bobby, Greg, Oliver, and/or Peter? The overkill is the big issue.)

Making DISCO a prequel was the easy route. They decided to swaddled themselves in nostalgia, yet make so many changes that it failed to deliver enough on the promised nostalgia.

Trying to bring in new audiences and established ones is never easy. Nostalgia is just one small piece. Even for the most popular shows.

In some ways Picard is better at being a Trek for today, though for me the writing, story, and tonal changes are too jarring.

The story is dictionary-standard "small universe syndrome" but not bad. The tonal changes are inevitable - TMP and TWOK - TUC (save for TFF) definitely show a new tone, but they were not disagreeable so there's more to it. Noting TSFS also toned down some of TWOK's more adult themed visuals and gore was telling enough that some critics felt it all wasn't needed, or were too much, for Trek (Trek in of itself mixes genres but rarely leans so much on horror...) At the time, TFF trying to feel like "TOS Meets Blazing Saddles" had audiences balking as well.

More on tonal changes, they are a tad much with the contrived and contemporary slang (which was also crap in those early season 1 TNG attempts, such as when they tried to use "Jean" instead of "Jean-Luc"... but "Jean" was attempted for one or two episodes and not the full season of "Hangin' with JL with the XB's". Never mind turnover and writer's strike and all... But I digress: Why not have everyone say they're also "real sophis" (Since "really sophisticated" has too many syllables for them to handle, I'd guess? Now get them to sit through one paragraph of Dickens' works or, better yet, one of Shakespeare's, and really watch 'em squirm...) The makers during TNG season 1 were tweaking as they went along. Which has its own pros and cons... And imagine TOS if everyone was informal and saying "groovy" and other slang in all 79 episodes. It wouldn't have had the Trimbles trembling... (contemporary fashion and hair are inevitable due to cost but at least with verbal linguistics they can make an attempt to sound like humans of a possible future and not contemporary era people chucked into the future, this isn't "The Orville" or any other parody for that matter. The most effective way to do that is surprisingly also the cheapest and easiest: Use more formality in language construct. Kirk's era did it and little 1960sisms seeped through. TNG's overdid it, probably to compensate for too much 20th centuryisms being in scripts.)

So even there, I wish they had just made DISCO the series after Nemesis, and perhaps Jean-Luc could've been the special guest star in their season 2 instead of Pike and Spock. Heck, Burnham could've been Sisko and Kassidy's daughter, and that would've more naturally tied her to an established Star Trek hero without it feeling as shoehorned in. In many ways DISCO feels more like a successor to DS9 than a prequel to TOS anyway.

At the time, I think they wanted DSC to be as a prequel but wanted to do everything of every sort all at once. It's just impossible to do. The fact they had x number of producers and showrunners doing turnover so fast also shows more turmoil than what even TNG had.
 
Really with Enterprise (at least seasons 1-3) and Discovery seemed to be acting more as prequels to TNG/DS9/Voyager rather than TOS/TAS. I don’t know whether it’s because of the lower production quality in the 60’s, but I’ve found that they’ve tried to connect both series with the later series rather than TOS. Enterprise Season 4 tried to rectify that.
 
There always seemed to be biased against TOS I think in the early 2000s in a way that I perceived similar to how Batman in the sixties was compared to the films of the recent times! Even the cowboy diplomacy lines in Unification came off more as a dig rather than a comparison of how we do things now in the twenty fourth century to Spock's old archaic times on the Enterprise! :vulcan:
JB
 
I'm watching Mudd's Women again...and man do i love those early eps. Serious frontier episodes. Lots of Sci-fi. All kinds of wonky details. Women growing up on automated planets only with their families. Miners who can buy entire planets.....things like that. The galaxy *feels* empty.

So they set DISCO before TOS and the most disappointing thing is they didn't jump feet first into that kind of setting.

Not slamming DISCO, just saying its a missed opportunity.


I agree with you about those earlier TOS episodes (among my favorite of all Trek ). "Space, the final frontier..."
 
Agreed about the premise not needing to be a prequel. Not only that but they were unwilling to put in the work (at least in S1) to convince the viewer to the slightest degree that this was set before TOS.

Agreed--it was about trying to rewrite the ST universe in a way that would never paint the picture that TOS was the future of said universe.

In the Trek universe, things looked and acted in a certain way. DS9 had one episode that went to the 1701 ship and didn't take anything out of proportion. But that was season 4 DS9, set 30 years after TOS and back when Trek as a whole was more in the cultural zeitgeist. It's over 30 years since the 1990s, over 50 since TOS, and the gulf is so wide that some aesthetics are just impossible to blend in.

But no one complained--because the TOS design always begat everything that followed--TAS, TOS movies, Berman ST. One could easily see how that universe, or even just Starfleet appeared to have a believable, evolutionary flow from one series / era to another. Its the reason ENT's best episodes--the two part "In a Mirror, Darkly"--was such a fan favorite, where next to no one questioned a TOS-era ship / costumes / devices working as advanced tech to the ENT crew.

Sarek's adopted daughter is just fine. Sybok being Spock's half-brother also came out nowhere. But what would make the shoehorning in of Sybok comparatively successful? (STV was not a prequel, and Sybok isn't a human that bests every lasts Vulcan in their version of the SAT in some incredibly naff dialogue as faux means to generate interest... Despite how Michael being the reverse of the same trope Sybok is, which is actually an inspired one - since Sybok was a Vulcan who wanted to be more human-like so here's Michael, a human who wants to be Vulcan... which is not a bad idea by any means. But how many more siblings are there, and are they named Jan, Marcia, Cindy, Bobby, Greg, Oliver, and/or Peter? The overkill is the big issue.)

...all because the "creators" of DSC could not generate a solid character of their own without grafting it to a classic character (and the development built around him), as if that association was going to make MB palatable. Whoops.


There always seemed to be biased against TOS I think in the early 2000s in a way that I perceived similar to how Batman in the sixties was compared to the films of the recent times! Even the cowboy diplomacy lines in Unification came off more as a dig rather than a comparison of how we do things now in the twenty fourth century to Spock's old archaic times on the Enterprise! :vulcan:
JB

Probably, but that's the ignorance / resistance of some of the Berman-era staff, that they took that one line in the title sequence ("...the final frontier") literally, when TOS is less the Roddenberry-attributed "Wagon Train to the stars" and more Cold War. That's the reality TOS' creators lived in / dealt with, and its all over the kind of dialogue and stories told in that series. Yes, early on, there was the feeling of the 1701 being in remote areas, but that was not the defining tone or type of story. I've always viewed TOS as having its feet / ideology firmly planted in Cold War politics more often than not.
 
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