Spree Killers Committing Suicide.

[TedShatner10]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

What? Southern cops and Germans killing people needlessly?

Surely not!*

*What me stereotype groups? Surely not!

 

[Locutus of Bored]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

So these nutjobs go around shooting innocent people, and what you're concerned about is some baseless conspiracy theory about the police taking them out after they allegedly surrendered?

If you live, you have to suffer the consequences of your actions. They don't want consequences, they don't want to reflect on their actions, they want to go out in a blaze of glory and be infamous. They want the easy way out, which is why suicide is so common in these cases.

What about the numerous people who kill themselves before the police arrive or in areas where the police have no access to them? What's your theory on those, or did the cops film those on the same soundstage where the Moon landings were shot?

 

[John Picard]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

Yes.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

This isn't the movies. Ifn the cops are threatened they will shoot you. tough shit.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

No.

That said, are autopsies and investigations not carried out on cause of death in these cases anyway?

 

[Franklin]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

No.

That said, are autopsies and investigations not carried out on cause of death in these cases anyway?

This line from Captain Renault seemed appropriate: I am making out the report now. We haven't quite decided yet whether he committed suicide or died trying to escape.

There may be a certain visceral satisfaction to be taken from "cowboy justice," but it's disturbing nonetheless.

 

[Mr. B]

I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest.

Even if it were true I wouldn't care... precludes them from even more media attention and it saves the taxpayer a shitload of money.

 

[TedShatner10]

I think it is a necessary evil for the police to bring down dangerous gunman with lethal force who can't be restrained. And while the shooters can commit suicide by their own hands, to avoid capture, they can also suicide by cop.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I think it is a necessary evil for the police to bring down dangerous gunman with lethal force who can't be restrained. And while the shooters can commit suicide by their own hands, to avoid capture, they can also suicide by cop.

"Suicide by cop" requires the gunman to do something which draws fire from the police, therefore being justified (in most cases).

So, what's your point? That police are covering up perfectly legitimate shoots in order to not have to deal with the subsequent investigation?

Just think about the logistics of maintaining that lie for a moment and it should become apparent why it doesn't make any sense to do so in the case of a legit police shooting.

It's just another conspiracy theory that falls apart when you apply the least bit of logic to it. Is it possible it's happened before? Sure. Is it commonplace practice and the numbers of actual suicides of mass murderers are greatly padded? No.

 

[Plecostomus]

Actually I dissagree with the "inability" of police to maintain a cover "lie." The police are a quasi-military band of like-minded individuals who are willing to take enormous risks to protect each other.

Look at the response to the State Trooper killings in NY. Man killed two cops, the ST went apeshit and spared no efforts to bring that man to justice... far more effort than they spend on any given day to protect the masses.

It's not a stretch at all to think they would be willing to lie and cover for each other. In fact they do all the time. You accuse a cop of wrong-doing even with proof, more cops come out of the woodwork to support the accused. Its happening here in Rochester, we have a cop on trial for reckless driving under the influence of drugs and alcohol and the cop-side of the story is "he shouldn't be on trial at all for this."


Not saying all are bad, in fact I've delt with many good officers over the years, even when I've done something to warrant a visit. Problem is like any other large org or group-mind orginization corruption can and will set in, coverups do and will happen.

As for the spree-killer thing... I have no problem if the police wack the killer while trying to respond to a spree in progress... saves us the aggravation of a trial. Someone that far gone that they kill 10-15 people without thought... they are beyond the ability of the "system" to help.

 

[auntiehill]

Most people prone to these types of mass killings have already planned to commit suicide, so that they don't have to face the "indignity" of prison. They don't want to face any consequences for their actions, and that's usually pretty clear from the way they lived their lives. Most leave notes or some type of message to be read after they've died their "glorious" (as they see it) death.

To be perfectly honest, I really don't care how these people are killed-- though most do kill themselves, however, one way or another.

I only wish that they'd killed themselves FIRST, instead of being heartless bastards that insist on taking countless others with them.

 

[JuanBolio]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

This isn't the movies. Ifn the cops are threatened they will shoot you. tough shit.

Yet if you're threatened by a cop and attempt to defend yourself you're a criminal. Stupid-ass world.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Actually I dissagree with the "inability" of police to maintain a cover "lie." The police are a quasi-military band of like-minded individuals who are willing to take enormous risks to protect each other.

Look at the response to the State Trooper killings in NY. Man killed two cops, the ST went apeshit and spared no efforts to bring that man to justice... far more effort than they spend on any given day to protect the masses.

It's not a stretch at all to think they would be willing to lie and cover for each other. In fact they do all the time. You accuse a cop of wrong-doing even with proof, more cops come out of the woodwork to support the accused.

It's not a matter of whether or not police can successfully cover-up a (singular) crime, it's the logistics required to cover-up the "true" circumstances behind the endings of dozens, if not hundreds of these mass killings as suggested by the OP, and the need or motivation to do so.

These crimes draw in tons of media attention, and news helicopters are often circling overhead. Sometimes, given the longer term nature of these crimes, they're still ongoing as the media arrives. So you have numerous cameras documenting the scene, or at least the threat of being caught on camera even if someone doesn't actually get the shot.

Then you have the very nature of our surveillance heavy society to deal with. There are cameras everywhere in civilian and public buildings alike. Not including a camera in nearly every cell phone now, in the hands of kids and adults.

Then you have the fact that the perpetrators themselves occasionally even film their actions. The chances of them filming up to their death are rare, but it has happened.

So, after having to deal with the chances of your cover-up being caught on film (and again, it doesn't actually have to be for you to believe that the possibility exists), then you have to deal with the human factor. More police get called to these crimes than most. Are they all willing to keep the secret that they killed the suspect in most of these situations? Would they want to when the public would at best reward their actions and at worst look the other way or give them a slap on the wrist for killing a mass murderer?

Is every one of the numerous survivors and eyewitnesses which are inevitably on the scene due to it being a "mass" murder - necessitating lots of targets - also motivated to keep the secret forever? Do all their stories match up under questioning? If dozens of people are telling a lie there are bound to be numerous discrepancies.

How do you successfully fake the forensic evidence in all these cases? Do the killer and cops always use the same ammunition? Can you not tell if the shot came from someone putting a gun to their own head or from being shot from a distance in an entirely different direction? Are the officer's guns not confiscated after a shooting to see who fired what?

And, once you deal with all of those problems which render the likelihood of these conspiracies being frequent (or even infrequent) incredibly implausible, you have to deal with the psychology of the killers themselves which requires a suicide in most cases not only to avoid the consequences of their actions but so that people can't see the type of person they really are. They want to be remembered as someone to be feared, not some punk in an orange jumpsuit and shackles with no power; something to be looked down on or even pitied in some cases.

 

[J.T.B.]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

I think your premise is wrong. First of all, police do sometimes kill "active shooters," the Salt Lake City mall shootings in 2007 for example. Second, a police officer close enough to shoot the suspect will be involved as a witness in any investigation anyway, it wouldn't save them much time or hassle. Third, shooting an armed assailant who has already used deadly force is pretty much an open-and-shut case of a justified homicide, while making false statements, falsifying reports, hampering an investigation, conspiracy &c. would be much riskier, legal-wise and career-wise, so why take the chance? Fourth, it would be a lot more difficult to get the fellow officers and police supervisors and the medical examiner's office and the prosecutor's office to go along with a coverup than it would be for them to support a case of self-defense, so why take the path of greater resistance?

This isn't the movies. Ifn the cops are threatened they will shoot you. tough shit.

Yet if you're threatened by a cop and attempt to defend yourself you're a criminal. Stupid-ass world.

Yes, you've expressed in another thread your opinion that law enforcement officers should have less of a right to self-defense than "private citizens." But most people understand that if the elimination of laws like resisting arrest, failing to comply with a peace officer, assaulting a peace officer and so on, would be a great advantage to criminals and not much benefit to the average person.

--Justin

 

[Praetor]

I think it would have been more convenient had the murderers turned the guns on themselves before killing all those innocent people.

 

[pookha]

With these recent shootins in Alabama and Germany the media, like clockwork, always claim the shooter allegedly turns the gun on himself. Do you think this is too common and convenient? And you only hear the proof of police shooting at them if the killers survive their wounds and/or captured alive (like with Martin Bryant). The recent German shooting has a pretty muddy climax where the police claimed they wounded Tim Kretschmer but then he is miraculously dead at his own hands. I get the nagging feeling the police claiming their targets committed suicide is a way to absolve them of a prolonged inquest. Am I alone with this opinion?

No.

That said, are autopsies and investigations not carried out on cause of death in these cases anyway?

yeah it would show up pretty damn fast if the cops killed them.

i suspect it is somethning in these people make up is why they take themselves out.
some form of ultimate control over their own destiny.
we often see the same thing in domestic violence situations were the spouse it killed and then the murderer turns the gun on themselve.

it seems that once the murderer is made ineffective after being wounded they decide that since they cant inflict any more damage they will decide their own fate rather then let society judge them any more.

 

[TedShatner10]

I'm sorry about my borderline wild assumptions about police shooting mass murderers and then bending the rules by claiming the said mass murderers committed suicide, since I really dislike the thought of the bastards killing themselves more out of spite than grief after their rampage (family destroyers have a similar pattern).