Spock's parents/Vulcan-human relations

[Timo]

If Pon farr is about finding a mate then why do Vulcans go through it every seven years? If they already have a spouse, what's the point?

Just like I said, there's no evidence they would go through it if they already have a spouse.

apparently Vulcans like all living things with male and female body parts can have sex anytime they want and reproduce offspring.

Well, they'd have to: Spock was going to have the traditional wedding, but his wife-to-be evidently was not in any sort of pon farr or its putative female equivalent. (Instead, it appears she had been courting with another male who appeared to be in synch with Spock on the pon farr matter; did she have sex with him, and if so, wouldn't that prove t can be had before the actual onset of that cycle's pon farr?)

If the seven-year cycle were the only chance of breeding, and both males and females had it, the logistics of arranging for synched pairs would be immense. And would it be exactly seven years (or 7.231 years or whatever) for each individual, or would married couples soon drift apart?

It makes Pon Farr an utterly meaningless concept.

It's simply commentary on forced marriages, from another angle - instead of "cold business agreement between families, with love and perhaps lust to follow if the pair gets lucky", it's "uncontrollable lust, arranged for by the families and their trusted telepathic bonder". Alien enough and exotic enough, but recognizable enough, too.

In the greater context, it makes all sorts of sense (say, desert dwellers having to devise a mechanism to stop inbreeding and force the boys to seek out the girls from another village beyond the desert). But that was hardly a concern for the original writers. Very little in Trek is; author intent is pretty much irrelevant in episodic television where there are too many authors to count... It's the unintended result, the sum total, that matters.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Malaika]

I think pon farr might be the remaining of how vulcans used to be in their natural state pre-Surak. But above all, I think it might be a reproduction insurance, so to speak, making it sure that at least every seven years they mate and possibly procreate.. even if they can do that all the time.

I wonder if perhaps pon farr isn't the result of them trying to control their real nature so much and thus their nature coming out once in a while to remind them of their fears and weaknesses.

 

[hux]

Just like I said, there's no evidence they would go through it if they already have a spouse.

Um, except Tuvok goes through it despite being married

So you get married and Pon Farr goes away (unless you're far away from your wife that is, then bizarrely it comes back)

What?

It's simply commentary on forced marriages, from another angle - instead of "cold business agreement between families, with love and perhaps lust to follow if the pair gets lucky", it's "uncontrollable lust, arranged for by the families and their trusted telepathic bonder". Alien enough and exotic enough, but recognizable enough, too.

In the greater context, it makes all sorts of sense (say, desert dwellers having to devise a mechanism to stop inbreeding and force the boys to seek out the girls from another village beyond the desert). But that was hardly a concern for the original writers. Very little in Trek is; author intent is pretty much irrelevant in episodic television where there are too many authors to count... It's the unintended result, the sum total, that matters.

There is no benefit to a species being horny all the time but also being a little bit extra horny once every seven years. If they're horny independent of Pon Farr then Pon Farr is a nonsense. Not just as a cultural concept but also as an evolutionarily biological means of procreation

 

[Dales]

And as everyone knows, girls are silly and smell

What? are you trolling. girls and silly and they smell?

I just think it was a mistake to do that to them

It makes Pon Farr an utterly meaningless concept. Star Trek has an unfortunate tendency to "humanise" pretty much every species that comes along (sooner or later). They start out being very "alien" and usually have a cultural point of uniqueness that brings them into conflict with humans but eventually the show makes them all embrace Human characteristics. Human sexuality (Vulcans) human pacifism (Klingons) human material values (Ferenghi) human rationality (the Borg) etc etc

No it was not a mistake because Vulcans are more emotional than humans in the first place and we all know sex can be very much tied to emotion. especially when you having sex with someone you love. your emotion goes overboard.

 

[Timo]

Um, except Tuvok goes through it despite being married

So you get married and Pon Farr goes away (unless you're far away from your wife that is, then bizarrely it comes back)

What?

Yup, distance would be the thing. Spock is in trouble in "Amok Time" because there's a telepathic bond between him and his fiance. Things are all right if he does go to said fiance, though (except when plot complications arise); had the two gotten properly hitched, it might well be there would be no further trouble. But Vulcan interstellar telepathy, while evident in "Amok Time" and "Immunity Syndrome", ought to have some maximum range...

There is no benefit to a species being horny all the time but also being a little bit extra horny once every seven years.

Sure there is. Constant heat, such as with humans, is good for flexible growing of offspring for a species that can provide a safe environment for breeding all year round (being smart and social and so forth). But a telepathically enforced ritual to "select a mate" (i.e. take the mate selected for you), unrelated to breeding as such, reduces the risks of inbreeding and is socially advantageous in the long term.

It need not be biology, even, as telepathy might be a "cultural" invention. Spock tries to say that mate-selecting on Vulcans is a passionate affair devoid of logic, but he's obviously confused: what we witness is a logical affair devoid of passion, something the Surakists would love to devise when given the chance. It's just that all the logic results in inhibition of the natural Vulcan passion, which apparently drives the male crazy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[hux]

Yup, distance would be the thing. Spock is in trouble in "Amok Time" because there's a telepathic bond between him and his fiance. Things are all right if he does go to said fiance, though (except when plot complications arise); had the two gotten properly hitched, it might well be there would be no further trouble. But Vulcan interstellar telepathy, while evident in "Amok Time" and "Immunity Syndrome", ought to have some maximum range...

Then surely interstellar travel is highly illogical

Sure there is. Constant heat, such as with humans, is good for flexible growing of offspring for a species that can provide a safe environment for breeding all year round (being smart and social and so forth). But a telepathically enforced ritual to "select a mate" (i.e. take the mate selected for you), unrelated to breeding as such, reduces the risks of inbreeding and is socially advantageous in the long term.

But all of that is contradicted if Vulcans are screwing like rabbits all year round. Who's to say they aren't inbreeding between each Pon Farr. That's the point. However you rationalise the biological benefits of Pon Farr, those benefits are instantly undermined if Vulcans are being sexual promiscuous throughout the seven years between each Pon Farr

 

[shapeshifter]

<snip>

Star Trek has an unfortunate tendency to "humanise" pretty much every species that comes along (sooner or later). They start out being very "alien" and usually have a cultural point of uniqueness that brings them into conflict with humans but eventually the show makes them all embrace Human characteristics. Human sexuality (Vulcans) human pacifism (Klingons) human material values (Ferenghi) human rationality (the Borg) etc etc

<snip>

Perhaps this is what Star Trek really is 'about'

We are HUMANS. We will add our biological and technological distinctness to your own. Resistance is futile.

 

[M'Sharak]

Making Vulcans sexual and romantic was done purely to have more romances take place in the show to please girls

And as everyone knows, girls are silly and smell

What? are you trolling. girls and silly and they smell?

If one doesn't omit the preceding sentence (as you did, and which I have here restored) it reads like the conclusion to a stereotypical schoolboy's argument: "because girls have cooties," only with different words. It was a joke, in other words, and not really anything to get defensive about.

Also: Don't do in-thread call-outs; that's not your job. If you think there's a problem with something in a post, use the Notify Moderator button and let staff take care of it.

 

[Iamnotspock]

"

There are clues suggesting that they mate and reproduce pretty much like humans do, with telepathy being a 'plus'.

Vulcans and humans mate "in quite similar fashion", according to Sarek here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What's the "point" of pon farr? It's probably the price that Vulcans pay for all that emotional control. They have to let it out, every so often. It's the same reason why Landru ordered the 'Red Hour' on Beta III...all of those colonists had to have an emotional release. Maybe it's the same for the Vulcans.

 

[shapeshifter]

^But if Vulcan's can simply jump in the sack for some good ole fashioned stress reducing sex at the drop of the hat then the logic for an occasional pon farr fever to achieve the same goal is lost.

 

[-Brett-]

And correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Vulcans physical with eachother through mind melds? Or can they be intimate like humans? Very confused.

Mind melds meld minds, not DNA. Since the whole species hasn't died of old age, we can probably assume that they fuck.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I've always thought Pon Farr was about reproduction. They simply built a ritual around it. Vulcans can have all the sex they want, but can only conceive during the Pon Farr.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I've always thought Pon Farr was about reproduction. They simply built a ritual around it. Vulcans can have all the sex they want, but can only conceive during the Pon Farr.

Yeah T-Pol sure had relations a lot in Enterprise.

 

[M'Sharak]

I've always thought Pon Farr was about reproduction. They simply built a ritual around it. Vulcans can have all the sex they want, but can only conceive during the Pon Farr.

Yeah T-Pol sure boinked a lot in Enterprise.

Charming.

Be sure you clean that up.

 

[Timo]

But all of that is contradicted if Vulcans are screwing like rabbits all year round. Who's to say they aren't inbreeding between each Pon Farr.

The people who ponfarred them to each other in the first place...

Spock is a freak for getting his first pon farr in his thirties. The second time around (ST3:TSfS), he looks like a teen when first getting it. Supposedly (as per "Amok Time" and without explicit contradictions elsewhere), Vulcan kids are bonded in early childhood - and if that bonding is done to avoid inbreeding, then the very first (or one of the first, at any rate) copulation will be with a suitable partner from the next village over.

If the established Vulcan pair then opts for infidelity, finding their first cousins more attractive, well... But apart from that, the system should work in producing at least some healthy offspring.

As said, commentary on arranged marriages, only with a twist.

Vulcans can have all the sex they want, but can only conceive during the Pon Farr.

We know for sure that conception can take place during a pon farr. From VOY "Alice":

Paris: "All right, all right, hold on. If you were married in 2304 and your daughter was conceived in your eleventh pon farr, that would make you a hundred and sixty two years old."
Tuvok: "Incorrect."

Sure, Paris is "incorrect" overall. But the pieces of the puzzle he is trying to solve are apparently correct anyway, and the pieces in evidence here are his date of marriage and the fact about the conception.

This doesn't mean children couldn't be conceived at other times as well, though. It's too bad we have no idea about the ages of Tuvok's children, or of Sybok!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jedi_Master]

I've always thought Pon Farr was about reproduction. They simply built a ritual around it. Vulcans can have all the sex they want, but can only conceive during the Pon Farr.

That makes sense to me. Considering the fact that 60's era television morality made it important that couple be married before having any children, it would make sense to tie reproductive activities to a special ceremony.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Tuvok's son Sek and his mate conceived a child during Pon farr, as well, as mentioned in VOY - Hunters.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Oh the mating rituals of aliens. Being human is so much easier.

 

[eyeresist]

There's no evidence that Vulcans would have less sexual activity than humans, really. What would be the logic of not fucking like rabbits all the time?

Indeed, Vulcans are supposed to be much more passionate than humans - that's what almost terminated their existence in those past wars.

You've answered your own question. Sexuality is suppressed for the good of civilisation.

As far as I know, pregnancy cannot be achieved through melding, nor fwiw, finger-stroking. Both probably are, imo, forms of foreplay.

I prefer to think the finger-stroking is a way of suppressing sexual desire.