Spock DID Get Emotional in this Show!!!

[T'Arwen]

To get back to topic, here's some thoughts on how much Spock displayed emotion. It wasn't originally about that but somehow went on that tagent.

http://www.thedelphicexpanse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=4144&p=97149&hilit=spock+emotion#p97149

 

[Zonker]

NUSpock seems to be emotional in every single film, there is no real inner struggle to NOT show emotion,

Yes there is.

there is no embarrassment when he does,

Yes there is.

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Spock tries to internalize his grief and hide his emotions up until the point where he's pushed over the edge. He only loses control because someone does everything they can in order to get him to lose that control after his mother has been killed and his planet destroyed. Even the initial loss wasn't enough for him to lose his cool, someone had to intentionally use his grief against him for the express purpose of making him show emotion.

After he is baited into losing control he obviously extremely embarrassed about what happened to him and he resigns his command in a state of disgrace. This isn't someone who shows emotion and brushes it off like it's no big deal. Spock tries his hardest not to show emotion or let his grief affect him and then when he fails he feels humiliated.

 

[Kelso]

If you watch "The Cage" (2254) and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (2265) you'll find that the level of emotional control nuSpock displays in the films (2258-2263) fits right in line with that of Spock Prime at the same age... and that's without even taking into consideration the vastly different life events he has experienced. Spock Prime was unable to allow himself to love Leila Kalomi during that period of his own life- but we don't know much about the specifics of their relationship. After seeing the destruction of Vulcan and the death of his mother, nuSpock was told by his father that's it's okay to love and told by a future version of himself to do what feels right. It isn't a stretch at all for nuSpock to allow himself an ongoing relationship with Uhura, despite his Prime counterpart not allowing himself to do so. In fact, Spock Prime's last line in "This Side if Paradise" indicated a regret that may well have been on his mind when he had the opportunity to give the aforementioned piece of advice to his younger self.

Also, the argument that Spock couldn't or shouldn't carry on a relationship with an Earth woman because he is a Vulcan is a non-starter, as Sarek did exactly that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock "losing control" is at the heart of almost every Spock-centric episode. There's a reason the writers went to that well so often and why the writers of the latest films went there too. Spock's internal conflict is at the core of his character. Spock showing hints of emotion was also a go to bit for the writers. Be it a raised eyebrow, a look of shock and exasperation or they occasional rationalization to cover his slip.

 

[Commishsleer]

Bringing up The Cage is kind of nonsense. It was the very first pilot. Nimoy was doing a character that had never been done before. Watch Encounter at Farpoint and see how awkward and out of character people are. It usually takes a show or two to get things into gear, although Nimoy had it down by The Corbomite Maneuver.

In The Naked Time, Spock was emotional because he was literally under the influence of a behavior changing virus, and the beautiful emotional roller coaster ride he went through gave us all huge insight into the character.
Remember him struggling and repeating" I am in CONTROL of my emotions" ?
THAT IS SPOCK.
Apparently Nimoy's fan mail doubled after that episode.

When Spock tried to beat up Kirk in TOS he was under the influences of a spore that messed up his mind. In the movie, Spock beat up Kirk because he was simply pissed off at him. Then he booted him off the ship! (obviously so Kirk could land on Delta Vega and conveniently meet Old Spock and Scotty)

BIG difference.

NUSpock seems to be emotional in every single film, there is no real inner struggle to NOT show emotion, there is no embarrassment when he does, there is no consistently looking down his nose at humanity in order to deny his own humanity. There is no constantly making genuinely funny sarcastic comments at humanity's expense. There is no reminding humanity how they have messed up throughout history.

When you watch Nimoy he is completely stone faced with an undercurrent of suppressed emotion, that peeks out occasionally. When you look at Quinto he appears to be in a constant state of brooding, and seems completely emotional as if he could crack a smile or get angry at any moment (and he does)

There is also no sense that he is a lonely outsider. He even gets to have a super hot girlfriend! That loneliness was a huge part of the character's popularity as many people could identify with being an awkward outsider, to one degree or another.

A lot of the wonderful qualities and subtle nuances of the character created by Roddenberry, Nimoy and all of the writers are mostly lost here. These are the qualities that made the character a Science Fiction legend.

So far, NuSpock generally bounces back and forth from these states:
-very angry
-slightly pissy
-mildly humorous.

That is it.

A very large part of the charm and pathos of all of these characters is that they are all alone. They have given up everything, family, stability, and romance in order to serve in Starfleet. They only have each other. They hold Starfleet in such high regard that they are willing to have nothing in order to be a part of it. Whereas NUKirk doesn't take Starfleet seriously at all, McCoy constantly complains about it, and Scotty was banished by Starfleet to Delta Vega.

One frustration is that I think all of the actors have the potential to do wonderful work but unfortunately the Hollywood Reboot Cookie Cutter has to dumb things down in order to make a "popcorn flick" which in their estimation, will make the most money. They dare not offend us knuckle draggers with interesting concepts, 3 dimensional characters, or philosophical notions.

It's a business, I get it.

The sad truth is that they DON'T have to.
Lord of the Rings made a ton of money and was beautifully written.

At the end of the day I'm very happy that they are making Star Trek movies and keeping it relevant.
I just think they can do a lot better when it comes to the writing.

So, let the finger pointing and "hater labeling" begin!

Spockboy

Agreed. Well stated.
Not to say there's nothing to recommend Quinto Spock. Just that he'll never be as brilliantly admired, written and played as TOS Spock was by Nimoy.
And a lot of its was Nimoys acting and interpretation of the character.
Didn't Nimoy invent to neck-pinch st stop Spock being a ruffian thug (sorry can't think of a better way of saying it).

Spoiler: Beyond Spoiler

In Star Trek Beyond Spock laughs out loud for goodness sake and screams in agony. TOS Spock only laughed when he was on the good drugs and it would take more torture than a Klingon Mind Sifter to get a scream out of Nimoy.
I just think by making Spock more "relate-able" to modern audiences they've cut out a lot of the magic.
In Beyond, Spock seemed to be just strong nerdy human guy who couldn't handle a "relationship".

I even like nuSpock I just don't think he's a patch on the original. But then who could be?

Spock "losing control" is at the heart of almost every Spock-centric episode. There's a reason the writers went to that well so often and why the writers of the latest films went there too. Spock's internal conflict is at the core of his character. Spock showing hints of emotion was also a go to bit for the writers. Be it a raised eyebrow, a look of shock and exasperation or they occasional rationalization to cover his slip.

I agree TOS Spock would show a hint of emotion here and there and be quick to cover it up. This helped show he was not an automaton and that it was difficult to live as a Vulcan when you did care about your crew and your Captain.
But it was just hints, not full-scale crying and laughter and relationship-drama.
Maybe its justified for some of the movies but if you do it all the time he loses his uniqueness.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But it was just hints, not full-scale crying and laughter and relationship-drama.
Maybe its justified for some of the movies but if you do it all the time he loses his uniqueness.

As I said, it was quite common in TOS. They went to that well often. The writers loved to put Spock through the wringer and came up with a some
dodgey reasons to do so at times. This goes all the way back to The Naked Time, early in the first season and continued through the third and All Our Yesterdays. Nimoy probably looked forward to those scripts because it allowed him to stretch beyond being Mister Exposition in less Spock oriented episodes. TMP shows us Spock crying and being overwhelmed by his encounter with V'Ger. TWOK has his death scene that is fraught with emotion. The Spock in 09 and STID is following the tradition of putting Spock through the wringer established in TOS and touched upon in the earlier films.

 

[T'Arwen]

but in all honesty I think some people are seeing what they want to see, not what is actually happening.

Look. In. The. Mirror. Then read Zonker's post.

Yes there is.

Yes there is.

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Spock tries to internalize his grief and hide his emotions up until the point where he's pushed over the edge. He only loses control because someone does everything they can in order to get him to lose that control after his mother has been killed and his planet destroyed. Even the initial loss wasn't enough for him to lose his cool, someone had to intentionally use his grief against him for the express purpose of making him show emotion.

After he is baited into losing control he obviously extremely embarrassed about what happened to him and he resigns his command in a state of disgrace. This isn't someone who shows emotion and brushes it off like it's no big deal. Spock tries his hardest not to show emotion or let his grief affect him and then when he fails he feels humiliated.

Thank you for remembering this. I don't get why some fans have such a black-and-white view of Vulcan emotional control (or lack thereof). It's a nicely done rebuttal without one unnecessary word.

 

[Mytran]

If you watch "The Cage" (2254) and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (2265) you'll find that the level of emotional control nuSpock displays in the films (2258-2263) fits right in line with that of Spock Prime at the same age... and that's without even taking into consideration the vastly different life events he has experienced.

Spock was famously emotional during events of The Cage (smiling at a plant, shouting etc) and 13 years later he was on trial during The Menagerie. But 14 years later he experienced his first Pon Farr, which he says he thought he would be spared.
14=2x7: coincidence?
My musings lead me to wonder if Spock had in fact experienced a partial Pon Farr during the Talos IV mission - not enough to trigger the mating drive, but enough to inflict some emotional control issues?

 

[UnknownSample]

As I said, it was quite common in TOS. They went to that well often. The writers loved to put Spock through the wringer and came up with a some
dodgey reasons to do so at times. This goes all the way back to The Naked Time, early in the first season and continued through the third and All Our Yesterdays. Nimoy probably looked forward to those scripts because it allowed him to stretch beyond being Mister Exposition in less Spock oriented episodes. TMP shows us Spock crying and being overwhelmed by his encounter with V'Ger. TWOK has his death scene that is fraught with emotion. The Spock in 09 and STID is following the tradition of putting Spock through the wringer established in TOS and touched upon in the earlier films.

The VERY few moments of emotion from Spock in TOS had impact specifically because they went so much against his nature. They were a result of things happening that ripped away all the emotional control that was normally present in him. This is always carefully and clearly explained onscreen. The scenes in question are meaningless without this context.
--------------------
In TMP, his new ideas about emotion were so significant specifically because this was a major reversal of his entire attitude up until then.
------------------------
Not till this year did I ever encounter all this unwillingness to accept this most basic idea of what a Vulcan is. It's a way of being that's just TOO alien to accept in a hero, I suppose.

 

[BillJ]

Not till this year did I ever encounter all this unwillingness to accept this most basic idea of what a Vulcan is. It's a way of being that's just TOO alien to accept in a hero, I suppose.

Just the realities of have three two hour movies vs. seventy-nine, 51 minute episodes. They have a good actor in Quinto and they want him to act, not be a monotonous exposition tool. In universe, this Spock is still relatively young. We're in 2263, where we see smiling Spock in "Where No Man..." in the Prime timeline.

 

[Marsden]

I don't understand the mental gymnastics involved by so many people here: it's two different characters.
It's based on the same template with the same name, but they are two different characters. There is no need to say character 1 did this so character 2 can do this because they are two different characters from two different eras portrayed by different actors.

 

[BillJ]

I don't understand the mental gymnastics involved by so many people here: it's two different characters.
It's based on the same template with the same name, but they are two different characters. There is no need to say character 1 did this so character 2 can do this because they are two different characters from two different eras portrayed by different actors.

I can't speak for anyone else, but to me Quinto is Spock. He has done a fantastic job capturing the character. Everyone's mileage may vary.

 

[Marsden]

I can't speak for anyone else, but to me Quinto is Spock. He has done a fantastic job capturing the character. Everyone's mileage may vary.

Sure thing, BillJ. I know you like him, and I don't think he, Quinto, is doing a bad job of it. I just don't like the scripts he's had to work with. I also don't like the new take on how a Vulcan is and isn't supposed to be, but I agree 100% with what you said about the movie people not wanting to have Quinto be an emotionless character, either.

I think Nimoy just pulled off something unique that really can't be duplicated. That's why it's so iconic, it really is something special to a lot of people. I think he's irreplaceable, but that's completely IMO.

Plus, I don't own the IP, and those owners want their money out of that IP no matter what they need to do to it to try to make that money.

Let me make an example of what I was trying to say last post. Sean Connery and Daniel Craig have both played James Bond. Saying Quinto isn't Spock is like saying Craig isn't Bond. No one is trying to say those Bonds are exactly the same person or character, but two interpretations of the same character, same thing for Spock and Sherlock Holmes and any other characters that are adapted. Look at the differences between Reeves's Superman and Cavill's, but they are both Superman.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The VERY few moments of emotion from Spock in TOS had impact specifically because they went so much against his nature. They were a result of things happening that ripped away all the emotional control that was normally present in him. This is always carefully and clearly explained onscreen. The scenes in question are meaningless without this context.

I get the context. But, you're missing the point. These moments are the core of who Spock is. His internal conflict brought to the surface. That's why the majority of Spock focused episodes have his control stripped away, so we can see that conflict. Spock would be less interesting and memorable without these episodes. The movies have done the same thing. The only difference is they come out ever few years rather than weekly.

Not till this year did I ever encounter all this unwillingness to accept this most basic idea of what a Vulcan is. It's a way of being that's just TOO alien to accept in a hero, I suppose.

This is about what Spock is, not what a Vulcan is. The conflict. The duality. The choice between cold logic and hot emotion. The Vulcan way vs the human way. And usually, its the human that comes out on top. Though Spock is hesitant to admit it. The Galileo Seven perfectly illustrates that.

I can see the appeal the "Vulcan way" has for some people. Turning off emotions and using logic to make decisions and solve problems might make life less messy. But Star Trek has never presented that as the idea. Humanity with all it's faults, emotions and gut feelings are usually what wins the day.

 

[Tallguy]

Discounting The Cage and Even Where No Man Has Gone Before as well as the extraordinary circumstances of The Naked Time, This Side of Paradise, etc. Spock was almost always at a low simmer. Early episodes such as Corbomite Maneuver show this as well as later ones like Doomsday Machine and Bread and Circuses. To say nothing of Journey to Babel.

He's certainly not histrionic and expressive. But it's there. Maybe it's a difference between "unemotional" and "non-emotional".

 

[Nerys Myk]

Discounting The Cage and Even Where No Man Has Gone Before as well as the extraordinary circumstances of The Naked Time, This Side of Paradise, etc. Spock was almost always at a low simmer. Early episodes such as Corbomite Maneuver show this as well as later ones like Doomsday Machine and Bread and Circuses. To say nothing of Journey to Babel.

He's certainly not histrionic and expressive. But it's there. Maybe it's a difference between "unemotional" and "non-emotional".

True, there was always something below the surface. All it took was something turning up the heat.

 

[johnnybear]

Of course Spock and all Vulcans have emotions, they just know how to control them that's all!
JB

 

[Noname Given]

Of course Spock and all Vulcans have emotions, they just know how to control them that's all!
JB

Well, they often CLAIM to always be in control. Look at how Sarek - Spock's father and 100% Vulcan, although he DID marry a Human - behaved during the episode "Journey to Babel". He was unable to hid his utter annoyance for the Tellerite delegation; was clearly arrogant towards kirk in many scenes, and was both angry at, and proud of his son, Spock.
^^^
Yeah, Vulcans claiming they're able to be 99.99% emotionless all the time, is like the Humans in Star Fleet (even in the TOS era) always claiming man has progressed and rarely resorts to violence any longer.

To both claims, my response:

 

[johnnybear]

I thought Sarek did okay with The Tellerites who were obviously baiting him! With Spock he tried to ignore him in the first few scenes and was no different to any other Father who was disappointed by his son's choices in life who wasn't a Vulcan anyway! can't say he was very arrogant towards Kirk here, maybe in ST3 but not here!
JB

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

I must say that he was sometimes sarcastic about his view of humanity at the end of every episode when he and Captain Kirk some up the moral of the story, what they learned, and/or what to take from the experience.

Spock in TOS showed emotions at times but always returned to center. T'Pol was all over the place. I think this may, at least partly, have something to do with Nimoy being a better and more experienced actor than Blalock.

No disrespect to Nimoy, he did the BEST job ever, but T'Pol in my opinion, was a less interesting character because she was so emotional and arrogant sometimes. She was my least favorite character on Star Trek: Enterprise. However, that was part of her character. She couldn't be, because the Vulcans were influenced by the Romulans before reforming of their philosophy during the early years of the Federation.