Spock as Science Officer and First Officer
- Thread starter CuttingEdge100
- Start date
Yeah and how do you man the science console and sit in the captains chair when Kirk's down on the planet's surface beating the crap out of some alien at the same time?
You do what they always do... bring the next person in line to man the station in his place. Bridge officers have several backups. That is why a Constellation class starship has a crew of 430.
Military organizations have been doing that for centuries.
Mr. Spook7,
My question was largely rhetorical and phrased as a joke...
My question was largely rhetorical and phrased as a joke...
Peeps,
Well, when I was a kid, I assumed that the setup was the same for all Starfleet ships, first officer/science officer, but then I remembered how Pike's first officer was at the navigation station. So it appears that 23rd century first officers often pull double duty of various kinds.
Another thing that comes to mind: I understand naval parlance calls for many of the officers to just be called "mister," rather than by their ranks. But what I found interesting is that to my knowledge, Kirk never called Spock Commander. On a couple of occasions, he does refer to him as Lt. Cmdr. Spock in the first season, but most of the time, he just calls him first officer or science officer. Spock himself usually referred to himself by his position and not his rank, and in The Tholian Web, he just introduces himself as "Spock. Commanding the Federation starship Enterprise." Only two people as I recall refer to Spock solely by his rank: Commodore Wesley in The Ultimate Computer, and Bele in Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.
I have to say I prefer the TNG-onward setup. It seems that first officer in the 24th century is direct training to become a commanding officer, and the first officer also seems to handle administrative duties formerly handled by 23rd century c.o.'s. Part of Riker's job is to handle those chores, take charge of away teams, protect the captain, and offer alternative choices to the captain.
Now, any of you swabbos on this board correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some larger ships in the modern-day navy like aircraft carriers have captains as c.o. and x.o., as well as other O-6s as, say, pilots? Same rank, but only one is obviously the captain of the ship. Imagine how confusing that would be if they tried to duplicate that in the ST series.
Red Ranger
Well, when I was a kid, I assumed that the setup was the same for all Starfleet ships, first officer/science officer, but then I remembered how Pike's first officer was at the navigation station. So it appears that 23rd century first officers often pull double duty of various kinds.
Another thing that comes to mind: I understand naval parlance calls for many of the officers to just be called "mister," rather than by their ranks. But what I found interesting is that to my knowledge, Kirk never called Spock Commander. On a couple of occasions, he does refer to him as Lt. Cmdr. Spock in the first season, but most of the time, he just calls him first officer or science officer. Spock himself usually referred to himself by his position and not his rank, and in The Tholian Web, he just introduces himself as "Spock. Commanding the Federation starship Enterprise." Only two people as I recall refer to Spock solely by his rank: Commodore Wesley in The Ultimate Computer, and Bele in Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.
I have to say I prefer the TNG-onward setup. It seems that first officer in the 24th century is direct training to become a commanding officer, and the first officer also seems to handle administrative duties formerly handled by 23rd century c.o.'s. Part of Riker's job is to handle those chores, take charge of away teams, protect the captain, and offer alternative choices to the captain.
Now, any of you swabbos on this board correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some larger ships in the modern-day navy like aircraft carriers have captains as c.o. and x.o., as well as other O-6s as, say, pilots? Same rank, but only one is obviously the captain of the ship. Imagine how confusing that would be if they tried to duplicate that in the ST series.
Red Ranger
To be sure, both Pike and Kirk had suffered casualties before their XOs appeared in double duty - Pike in the backstory, Kirk in the pilot episode. So both instances could be exceptional, a brief artifact of the need to reshuffle.
The "mister" thing is old Royal Navy tradition, and probably not completely appropriate for today's navies. But in this system, seniors can address juniors that way, from Ensign rank to Lieutenant (and including possible warrant officers and cadets - and yes, it would be gender-blind, the females being Misters, too). Said juniors can address each other that way, too, including e.g. an Ensign addressing a Lieutenant. People from LtCmdr up should not be addressed as Mister even by their superiors, as this is an insult (even if sometimes a good-natured one) associating them with junior officers.
So "Mr. Spock" wouldn't really be appropriate for our high-ranking XO/SO, unless it is one of those good-natured insults.
One would expect a degree of informality or at least token familiarity between Kirk and his officers, versus situations where strangers address Kirk's officers. Thus, if "Mister" is appropriate for Spock, and Scotty, in addition to Sulu, Chekov etc., it probably would be the preferred form aboard the ship.
I just wonder why Kirk insisted on "Lieutenant Uhura" while always going "Mr. Sulu" and "Mr. Chekov". The "Mr. Saavik" thing was fun; why wasn't it done with Uhura, in a further step of promoting gender equality in this fictional future?
Do the final TOS movies count?
Timo Saloniemi
But why science officer? The science officer should be the best scientist. I can see any bridge office being the first office (say, a commander who is the chief tactical officer) but why only the science officer? That's pretty stupid.
Just as stupid, in the episode where Data was assumed dead and Warf was moved to the science officer position. That's lame. It assumes that the sci officer is always the next in rank when it should be whatever officer on the bridge who is the next highest rank. In some cases the chief science officer on the bridge might be a Lieutenant.
~String
What do you mean? How can you claim the XO can be "only" the CSO when Kirk's ship doesn't need more than one XO and when there aren't any other ships or XOs for us to judge? You have an example of just one to go by, so of course it's going to be "only".
To be accurate, Data was never the Science Officer. Nor did Worf become one when Picard and later Riker went missing, in "Gambit". Data's usual position was Operations Officer, which appears to be a coordinator job, basically being XO to the XO.
I can't fathom what you mean. The E-D never had a prominent science officer on the bridge, just junior blueshirts. The SO on DS9 was the lowly Lieutenant Dax, admittedly as part of an overall mixture of low ranks. The (surviving) SO on Voyager apparently was Ensign Wildman, with half a dozen bridge officers of higher rank always available.
Of course, it is natural to assume that the Chief Science Officer would carry relatively high rank. After all, science is one of the most important starship missions and functions, and a skilled department head would no doubt hold rank indicative of his or her experience. Also, the Captain's science advisor is often one of the most important people when it comes to making tactical decisions, so it makes sense for him or her to have line officer qualifications and not just be staff - and thus for him or her to be part of the succession of command.
Timo Saloniemi
Yes, well that would be "the Roddenberry era" as opposed (presumably) to "the Berman era."
Timo:
Hey, you correctly pointed out that in the ST movies, we did end up with several characters at captain rank on the Enterprise, with of course, Kirk being the commanding officer -- Spock and Scotty. I would've liked to see McCoy get a captain's insignia, too, although at some point after he must've, since he goes on to become an admiral.
Also, the only other times in TOS that we even heard of another science officer mentioned was in The Doomsday Machine, when Decker refers to his science officer. Of course, we have no way of knowing if that person was also the first officer.
I would also imagine that the first officer would have to have a bridge station to be effective, so you probably wouldn't have the chief medical officer, or even the chief engineer as first officer. So I can see how not only, as we've seen, the science officer and navigator doing dual duty, but the helm officer or communications officer, if of high enough rank, serving as first officer.
Allow me to bollix things ups even more, in citing another potential double duty candidate. We don't know whether Sonak from TMP was both science officer and first officer, as I posed the question in a thread awhile back. My own guess is (a) he was, like Spock, serving in that dual role, which we later see Decker assume briefly, or (b) there was an unnamed and unseen first officer who was unavailable to serve out his/her assignment, or was the other officer who died with Sonak in the transporter accident. I don't think it's canon who the other person beaming up with Sonak was -- in the novel, it's supposed to be Kirk's former lover, Admiral Ciani -- but it's possible that person was the first officer.
Red Ranger
Hey, you correctly pointed out that in the ST movies, we did end up with several characters at captain rank on the Enterprise, with of course, Kirk being the commanding officer -- Spock and Scotty. I would've liked to see McCoy get a captain's insignia, too, although at some point after he must've, since he goes on to become an admiral.
Also, the only other times in TOS that we even heard of another science officer mentioned was in The Doomsday Machine, when Decker refers to his science officer. Of course, we have no way of knowing if that person was also the first officer.
I would also imagine that the first officer would have to have a bridge station to be effective, so you probably wouldn't have the chief medical officer, or even the chief engineer as first officer. So I can see how not only, as we've seen, the science officer and navigator doing dual duty, but the helm officer or communications officer, if of high enough rank, serving as first officer.
Allow me to bollix things ups even more, in citing another potential double duty candidate. We don't know whether Sonak from TMP was both science officer and first officer, as I posed the question in a thread awhile back. My own guess is (a) he was, like Spock, serving in that dual role, which we later see Decker assume briefly, or (b) there was an unnamed and unseen first officer who was unavailable to serve out his/her assignment, or was the other officer who died with Sonak in the transporter accident. I don't think it's canon who the other person beaming up with Sonak was -- in the novel, it's supposed to be Kirk's former lover, Admiral Ciani -- but it's possible that person was the first officer.
Red Ranger
Just for completeness' sake, Kirk in "Where No Man" has this line:
It's uncertain whether Kirk is chiding science officer Dehner for her ettempt to hide key information on Gary Mitchell, or perhaps defending science officer Spock for his bringing this information forth. But Kirk's ship at that time seems to have plenty of folks considered "science officers", including Sulu who heads Astrophysics.
But in the movie, Kirk first tells Sonak that he's to be the SO, then tells Decker that he's to be the new XO. This before Sonak dies and the SO job moves to Decker. So there doesn't seem to be any ambiguity about that: SO and XO were intended to be separate, until casualties forced the temporary joining, which was then undone when Spock became the SO but not the XO.
Perhaps Decker had an XO in mind, but Kirk would naturally have told that person that his or her services were not needed before leaving Starfleet HQ, boarding the ship, and moving Decker to the XO slot.
Note that plenty of key personnel were still planetside when the emergency orders came in. The SO was down in San Francisco. Probably there was no CMO aboard until Kirk summoned McCoy; that is, we never get confirmation that Chapel would have been the originally intended CMO. And even the Chief Engineer, who had more justification for being aboard while the ship was in dock than the CMO or the XO did, was temporarily off the ship, on that space station where he received Kirk. It would only be natural, then, that the original XO received a simple comm call in his or her home or office, telling him or her not to bother with the upcoming emergency orders.
Timo Saloniemi
Damn you and your logic, Timo! Just kidding. I always enjoy reading your speculations and justifications, as well as your penchant for filling in the blanks. I'll buy your explanation about the unknown intended first officer for Decker -- "Sorry, Mr. So-and-so, you won't be xo of Enterprise for now." Then, once Spock came on board, and the ship went (presumably) on another five-year mission, his/her services were no longer needed, and he/she was reassigned. Makes total sense. -- RR
It could be possible that the ship's dedicated F/O was killed requiring the next senior guy to takeover... But don't you think if that was so, they would have gotten a dedicated F/O over to the Enterprise? I mean Spock was the F/O for three years...
CuttingEdge100
CuttingEdge100
Oh don't blame that one on the Great Bird of the Galaxy. That was a dumb concept idea that GR tried out as an experiment on a certain moron's suggestion and which he regretted as soon as he saw the writing go south.
I wonder if we shouldn't actually believe in some sort of trouble with getting replacement officers. After all, there was no crew rotation worth mentioning during TOS: while some people like Chekov "premiered" during the second or third season, and perhaps hadn't been aboard during the earlier seasons, their presence didn't exactly displace the previous holders of the job - because those had been lineless and sometimes nameless extras who would keep on appearing till the end of the show. It may be that skippers on five-year exploration missions indeed had to largely do with a given pool of officers whom they could reshuffle but not refresh.
Why that would be is more difficult to explain. Perhaps there's a special sort of "deep space training" that takes time, and the general pool of "deep space qualified" personnel is relatively small as a consquence? Perhaps psychologists carefully select each crew for compatibility, and don't allow for major changes late in the mission?
Certainly we can't excuse the failure to rotate by saying that Kirk stayed too far from friendly ports. We actually have reason to believe that he went all the way back to Earth at least twice: in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Assignment: Earth", he was there in spatial terms despite all the time-traveling, and it would make sense for him to be in contact with 23rd century Earth in both cases.
I guess we could also say that Spock simply demonstrated sufficient competency during the initial months to convince Starfleet that he should be allowed to continue. After all, Spock was something of a coup for the Fleet: the son of a prominent Vulcan dignitary, a fascinating biological freak, possibly the only (part-)Vulcan who agreed to serve in a mixed crew at the time. Offering him novel career possibilities would be in the interests of the Fleet, or at least certain factions of it. And he was superhumanly competent for a job (two jobs!) apparently originally sized for a human.
Timo Saloniemi
That Mr Spock is so clever!
I don't think the unnamed Number One or Spock were unique in their dual duties. I like to think that in the TOS era and prior it part of the way the rank structure was set up that you had say 9 department heads and out of those the two with the most rank were also first officer and second officer(since Scotty took over when Spock was absent.) With smaller crews, it would have initially been desireable for personnel to pull double duty. As bigger starships were built by the TNG era, more administrative duties had to be delegated from the Captain down to the XO, and as a result this was created as a separate position, with Ops Manager created to support that position as well.
By contrast, the Defiant (a nightmare of a rank scenario to decipher to start with) seemed to retain dual-duty for its personnel. When everyone was aboard, First Officer Kira worked at one of the many tactical stations and Jadzia (who I would presume to be second officer when everyone was aboard pre-Worf) worked at the helm.
I would agree though that Spock was uniquely overqualified.
By contrast, the Defiant (a nightmare of a rank scenario to decipher to start with) seemed to retain dual-duty for its personnel. When everyone was aboard, First Officer Kira worked at one of the many tactical stations and Jadzia (who I would presume to be second officer when everyone was aboard pre-Worf) worked at the helm.
I would agree though that Spock was uniquely overqualified.
