Spock and Kolinahr

[c0rnedfr0g]

Kolinahr is the 'rite of passage' thing where Vulcans become completely logical and emotionless.

Spock started the Kolinahr and nearly finished before he had to go play with V'GER. My question: did he ever go back and complete it? Or, after his death, did he embrace more of his human side and no longer wanted to achieve it? Was it even possible for Vulcans to go back and attain Kolinahr if they stopped partway through (is it like a 1 time only deal)?? I seem to remember Tuvok stating his Kolinahr was interrupted, but don't recall if he ever said he finished it or what.

Maybe something in the literature that can shed some light on this even?

 

[JoeZhang]

Kolinahr always seemed a bit odd to me as did many of the bits of Vulcan society. Seemed a bit odd that a logical scientific culture had all those fucking priests and monks hanging around.

 

[Haytil]

I think based on his discussions with Valeris and other moments, where he seemed to embrace the validity of emotions and non-logical viewpoints as being equally as useful as logical perspectives, we can assume that he never saw a need or felt a desire to finish Kolinahr.

 

[voyagerfan]

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kolinahr

But vulcans can be more emotional apparently?

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kolinahr

But vulcans can be more emotional apparently?

Vulcans were as savage and emotionally unstable as early humans, and still are by nature, but have devoted themselves to suppressing emotions through logic and the teachings of Surak after the planet nearly destroyed itself with war.

 

[Anticitizen]

Spock 'learned his lesson' within TMP. His attempt at attaining Kolinahr was in contrast to V'ger's quest for meaning and purpose. After mind-melding with V'ger he realized the barren emptiness that V'ger experienced without the simplest of emotions and its inability to find a meaning in its existence. I think that was the true end of Kolinahr for Spock.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Spock 'learned his lesson' within TMP. His attempt at attaining Kolinahr was in contrast to V'ger's quest for meaning and purpose. After mind-melding with V'ger he realized the barren emptiness that V'ger experienced without the simplest of emotions and its inability to find a meaning in its existence. I think that was the true end of Kolinahr for Spock.

ah, good call. that sounds spot on

 

[ryan123450]

Kolinahr always seemed a bit odd to me as did many of the bits of Vulcan society. Seemed a bit odd that a logical scientific culture had all those fucking priests and monks hanging around.

The 98% of humanity who believe in some 'something' in the world that goes beyond what science can tell us would say that it is logical.

 

[JoeZhang]

Kolinahr always seemed a bit odd to me as did many of the bits of Vulcan society. Seemed a bit odd that a logical scientific culture had all those fucking priests and monks hanging around.

The 98% of humanity who believe in some 'something' in the world that goes beyond what science can tell us would say that it is logical.

That's great but those aren't human - a meaningless ritual that says "you no longer have emotions" makes absolutely no sense at all in this context. I don't think we see any evidence of belief in the human sense of "something" greater - all of the rituals are related to the internal not the external.

 

[Timo]

Why would the kolinahr thing be "meaningless ritual"? It appears more like a strict regimen of mental exercises that in the end leave the practitioner conditioned to emotionless thinking. All Vulcans apparently do that to greater or lesser degree - some just take it further, probably out of sheer personal interest, just like some humans try to become more fit physically than is required for their survival.

Idle curiosity is the one emotion that Vulcans still would want to embrace if they were to truly devote themselves to logic and reason. And idle curiosity would be good enough a reason to go and see how far this emotion-suppression thing could be taken.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mike Farley]

From TMP:

SCOTTY: We can have you back on Vulcan in four days, Mister Spock.

SPOCK: Unnecessary, Mister Scott. My task on Vulcan is completed.

 

[JoeZhang]

Why would the kolinahr thing be "meaningless ritual"? It appears more like a strict regimen of mental exercises that in the end leave the practitioner conditioned to emotionless thinking. All Vulcans apparently do that to greater or lesser degree - some just take it further, probably out of sheer personal interest, just like some humans try to become more fit physically than is required for their survival.

Idle curiosity is the one emotion that Vulcans still would want to embrace if they were to truly devote themselves to logic and reason. And idle curiosity would be good enough a reason to go and see how far this emotion-suppression thing could be taken.

Timo Saloniemi

But how can you attain a single state forever, you either manage it or you don't and taking a ritual on a certain day to say "I've done it!" seems odd. You'd do the exercises and then say "I have concluded my regime of exercises here and will now take my leave" and leave...

 

[Timo]

I don't understand the problem here, or the difference between your two quote-marked phrases. Spock is not "taking a ritual", he is submitting his brain for the jury to be judged after supposedly conducting years and years of exercises. The jury is probably quite capable of judging the sum total of progress made so far, through the judicious use of a mindmeld, while Spock himself naturally is not. And that meld reveals emotional outbursts in Spock's current state of mind (supposedly, at least partially brought to the surface by telepathic contact with V'Ger's probing supermind), which is a clear indication of failure.

If Spock can't contain himself on this important day of judging, he sure can't do it on an average day full of emotional temptations, which is why he doesn't get that medal: if he didn't learn the necessary things by now, it's clear he never will. Moreover, the judge is likely to have lots of experience with people trying to attain kolinahr for wrong reasons or without sufficient motivation, and quickly identifies Spock as one of those, helpfully telling him that this thing just plain won't work.

Eminently logical, even if the part about dropping the diploma-necklace to the sand is a bit theatrical. Although that is logical, too: Spock is already kneeling, so that's the easiest way to get him to carry out the garbage.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't understand the problem here, or the difference between your two quote-marked phrases. Spock is not "taking a ritual", he is submitting his brain for the jury to be judged after supposedly conducting years and years of exercises. The jury is probably quite capable of judging the sum total of progress made so far, through the judicious use of a mindmeld. And that meld reveals emotional outbursts in Spock's current state of mind (supposedly, at least partially brought to the surface by telepathic contact with V'Ger's probing supermind), which is a clear indication of failure.

If Spock can't contain himself on this important day of judging, he sure can't do it on an average day full of emotional temptations, which is why he doesn't get that medal: if he didn't learn the necessary things by now, it's clear he never will. Moreover, the judge is likely to have lots of experience with people trying to attain kolinahr for wrong reasons or without sufficient motivation, and quickly identifies Spock as one of those, helpfully telling him that this thing just plain won't work.

Eminently logical, even if the part about dropping the diploma-necklace to the sand is a bit theatrical. Although that is logical, too: Spock is already kneeling, so that's the easiest way to get him to carry out the garbage.

Timo Saloniemi

It's a ritual - what's with the necklace and stuff, the dress-up clothes - why aren't they do it in an office? What do you need a "high priest" for besides ritual? why not a vulcan psychiatrist instead (leaving aside the fact that looks pretty boring on film)?

 

[Timo]

Huh? Why should these judges be naked (except for ratings)? Why should they need a roof and walls in that climate? Why is "High Psychiatrist" better than "High Priest" (a title never uttered in the movie)?

Illogical.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sheliak]

 

[BillJ]

The novel Crucible: Spock - The Fire and the Rose has Spock again attempting the Kolinahr after Kirk's death in Generations.

 

[Mike Farley]

Eminently logical, even if the part about dropping the diploma-necklace to the sand is a bit theatrical. Although that is logical, too: Spock is already kneeling, so that's the easiest way to get him to carry out the garbage. Timo Saloniemi

Or to pick up the necklace, put it on, and show up at his parents house. "Father I am a Kohlinar Master. I believe you are not, correct?"