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Spin-offs and poor treatment of TNG?

JesterFace

Fleet Captain
Commodore
This thread is about something that some TNG fans might agree with and DS9 and VGR fans disagree with (or the orher way around) but I just want to say it.

As I'm a huge fan of TNG and not so much of the spin-offs that take place roughly the same time, I'm not completely happy with how they treat TNG.

I'm not saying that what those other shows affect the quality of TNG but some storylines are weird. When watching TNG you might think of something that happens later in DS9 or VGR, even if you don't want to. Somehow that kind of spoils some (perhaps small) things in TNG.

Few examples. These are my opinions, not facts. :)

I don't like the fact that Worf joined the crew of DS9. I don't think he was the Worf we knew on the Enterprise. Sure, different surrounding, different people around him but his behaviour changed and he felt like a different character and I don't think Worf character needed that, he was the safety officer on Enterprise and that's it. He should have stayed there.

Kurn. Worf's brother was now a suicidal wreck after being an awesome character in TNG.

Voyager and the Borg. Voyager was a brand new ship with new weapons and all that. Still, sometimes it felt that Voyager was a bit too strong when fighting the Borg. Enterprise-D got few shots in before the Borg adapted. After that no matter how much the Enterprise fired, it worked only once when Commander Shelby had an idea with the phasers.

And the Hansen story. TNG made the first contact with the Borg. Until VGR robbed that. Hansens knew of cube shaped ships and few things about the Borg before meeting the Borg. If there was some knowledge about the Borg during season 2 of TNG one might imagine that Starfleet had told something about the Borg to the flagship. But no.

Writers shouldn't borrow too much. Don't ruin TNG ”legacy”.

While I type this I realize that some of the things I find annoying might feel the exact opposite to others. But hey, opinios can't be wrong, right? At least opinions about television series. :)

Even if you don't agree with any of the things I mentioned, try not to hate me. :)
 
I would disagree. I think the spinoffs help complete the picture. TNG showed life on a long range exploration/diplomatic ship, and it did that very well, but times change and people move on. DS9 was very much the side of the galaxy was wasn't as polished, and to some degree, how people from a much better situation would react to it. Sisko is the perfect character for that. The fallout from the actions of TNG already have nearly ruined his and his son's life. They have to pick up the pieces, and do so of all places at the front lines of the Cardassian/UFP cold war.

Worf got to be a more compelling character (to say nothing of O'Brien and Keiko) than on TNG. On TNG he was mostly a prop to give suggestions that the wise Picard could immediately shoot down.

As far as the Hansens and prior Borg contact, Starfleet had heard rumors but did not believe the Borg existed. It's a big galaxy and 3rd hand rumors have to be extensive. The Hansens never got to report back the proof of what they found, so Starfleet still did not know. There was no legacy ruined. It just is a broader canvas.
 
Now look at TNG as a "spin-off" of TOS, and apply the same standards. If a person sticks to those standards of adherence to exactly how things were presented on TOS, there are lots of reasons for TOS fans to be just as put-off by TNG, but we all find a way forward in the name of entertainment.

The premise here of "poor treatment" is an odd one to me, because I feel like TNG has only come under more critical scrutiny in the last couple years. Prior to that, it seemed to be largely regarded as the gold standard for what Trek should be (in the eyes of the majority), almost untouchable for deep scrutinizing.

Extending/expanding the on-screen lifespans of characters is always risky, because it can greatly enhance their depth, or make them overfamiliar, or take them down a road we don't like as fans. And those are all things we'll debate here for years to come, but I would agree with XCV330's comment on those particulars.
 
Now look at TNG as a "spin-off" of TOS, and apply the same standards.

Obviously TOS and TNG are from very different times in two ways.
TOS and TNG are decades apart when looking at when they are made and even more apart in their own timelines.

TNG and it's followers are much closer in both ways, when they are made and in their timelines.
From that perspective TNG has a little more freedom to do what it wants.
 
If anything, I think it actually helped the majority of the characters become more beloved. After seeing the relatively poor performance of Sisko and Janeway (and the actors that portrayed those characters), Picard seems to be that much better. Nostalgia.
I know when I watched Voyager, I kept thinking about how annoying Kate Mulgrew was as the captain and compared her unfavorably to Patrick Stewart.
 
I know when I watched Voyager, I kept thinking about how annoying Kate Mulgrew was as the captain and compared her unfavorably to Patrick Stewart.
I didn't so much judge the actor, as the character. It's like they were deliberately trying to have a captain who didn't behave like Picard, & that basically meant... a terrible captain, who when left unopposed, constantly made poor choices, as a default

However, as to the OP. Honestly, I don't really have this problem, because in hindsight, I have very much compartmentalized all the shows at this point. Sure, they're all part of the same lore, but I almost never compare them to one another, & that has been a good philosophy as they now continue to add more content

TNG is what it was. DS9 is something different, just as TOS, VOY, ENT, DSC etc... are. The way I feel about each is its own entity, & can't spoil or be spoiled due to the others. I even think of it that way when considering TOS & their movies. The show & the movies aren't the same entity, and while I was very irked at the time the TNG movies came out, now that I've gotten some separation, I've begun to see the TNG movies as being equally unrelatable to that show, just like I do with the TOS films,

That happened right around the time the Abrams reboots happened. I just said F### it. There's no way to relate all this to one another. Accept each iteration as its own thing. Do it now, before this new Picard show shatters you yet again... because it is without a doubt going to
 
I have very much compartmentalized all the shows at this point.

TNG is what it was. DS9 is something different, just as TOS, VOY, ENT, DSC etc... are. The way I feel about each is its own entity, & can't spoil or be spoiled due to the others.

That is good advice.
 
That is good advice.
It's also kept me a healthy relationship with the franchise. For years I never watched a Voyager episode, because it just didn't land right with me, so soon after TNG

But now? I haven't seen them all, but since they're on Netflix, there's odd occasions when I'll surf through, read the descriptions & pick one to watch just because hey... It's Star Trek & I haven't seen it. I'll probably do that with Enterprise as well.

I imagine I'll do that the rest of my life in general, parse out whatever content is out there, & take some in now & then... On its own terms, not beholden to any of the rest

Basically, I'm not a fanatic anymore, so to speak. I'm a casual fan/viewer, with some that I really love, & some I can take or leave.

The only downside is that I'm not fully versed in all the canon anymore, & the only time that matters is when I'm discussing a topic extensively... here. It's a fair trade IMHO lol
 
It's also kept me a healthy relationship with the franchise. For years I never watched a Voyager episode, because it just didn't land right with me, so soon after TNG

But now? I haven't seen them all, but since they're on Netflix, there's odd occasions when I'll surf through, read the descriptions & pick one to watch just because hey... It's Star Trek & I haven't seen it. I'll probably do that with Enterprise as well.

I'm a TNG fanatic and did watch DS9 years ago but these days DS9 is not my thing. Right now that is, it may change?

With 'Voyager' I'm in the same situation as you are, I haven't watched and learned it inside out, recently I have been going through the early episodes.

ENT, that is a fun show, I haven't watched it in a while but it's worth watching, especially the arc of season 3.

With TOS it's been a while too, I need to watch it again sometime.
 
The Hansens learned about the Borg from this guy-
He gets around
EzuVzcj.png
 
Tbh the Hansens knowing about the Borg has never bothered me, for the simple reason of cosmic retcon: First Contact (a TNG movie) established them pre-Federation, with Lily getting first-hand experience with them, and ENT likewise shows Borg drones in Archer's time. Generations (the movie) shows El-Aurians, apparently in exodus from the Borg, near Earth's solar system in the TOS era. Even in TNG season one, before the Borg are actually officially introduced, there are the attacks on the neutral zone colonies, later explicitly said to have been the Borg, and that's on the border of Federation space. The only oddity becomes then, Q Who not suggesting any previous knowledge. All we need to assume about the Hansens is that the Borg's sporadic presence in Federation territory has become a thing of myth, not unlike Bigfoot, with the Hansens seeking to find this long rumoured, but seldom seen, cybernetic species. Q Who, therefore, can be retconned as simply being the first time the Federation actually encounters them, confirming their existence, a situation similar to Starfleet having known about, and even had space battles with, the Ferengi before ever 'officially' meeting them face-to-face in The Last Outpost....
 
It was made made clear that the Hansens were chasing an urban legend. In a log, Papa Hansen referred to the Borg possibly being no more than “senior ghost and rumour” or some such.

it was established in GEN that the Federation took in El Aurian refugees 70 years before the D encountered the Borg at J25. I do rather think it may have occurred to somebody in the Federation to ask what, exactly, they were refugees of. The outcome of that might’ve been filed away somewhere as a minimal concern given the distance and the concept that it’s not particularly remarkable that there are Bad Guys in portions of the galaxy the Federation had not yet reached. Then, curious xenobiologists like the Hansens might’ve heard about the Borg from an El-Aurian, and gone on what was clearly considered at the time the 24th century equivalent of a Loch Ness Monster.

So maybe we can cross that one off your list?
 
This thread is about something that some TNG fans might agree with and DS9 and VGR fans disagree with (or the orher way around) but I just want to say it.

The wonderfulness of Trek Democracy (Treknocracy?) :D

As I'm a huge fan of TNG and not so much of the spin-offs that take place roughly the same time, I'm not completely happy with how they treat TNG.

I'm not saying that what those other shows affect the quality of TNG but some storylines are weird. When watching TNG you might think of something that happens later in DS9 or VGR, even if you don't want to. Somehow that kind of spoils some (perhaps small) things in TNG.

Like what amounts to continuity? TBH, in any long running series, at some point, it is increasingly probable that continuity gets altered or forgotten - often to or in attempt to tell something new of interest, to keep the show alive and not dragged down. Which is both good and bad, at the time and in the future as one looks back.

Few examples. These are my opinions, not facts. :)

I don't like the fact that Worf joined the crew of DS9. I don't think he was the Worf we knew on the Enterprise. Sure, different surrounding, different people around him but his behaviour changed and he felt like a different character and I don't think Worf character needed that, he was the safety officer on Enterprise and that's it. He should have stayed there.

I can agree and disagree simultaneously. In DS9, Worf is still doing his Klingon stories - but they didn't feel as bland and preachy as they ultimately became in TNG. They did a retread of the "Worf is torn between Statfleet and the Klingon Empire", which was good but not quite as strong as the original, despite the mess "Redemption II" became. I also suspect Worf might have risen up against Sisko in "For the Uniform" when he orders trilithium torpedos to be launched into enemy territory, though he did at least get taken aback by the unusual request - and as Sisko had hounded Worf for disobedience in the past, I had no real issue. But Worf, from recollection, did stand up against "the bad admiral trope" on cue to defend Picard. And, of course, ditching Troi for a comparatively sensible Dax, who also acts a lot like Troi to keep him grounded. But Troi's pairing felt forced and cheap (but to me, most "shipping" tends to come across as being bawdy and tacky to begin with, generally to get ratings and it rarely works anyway.)

Ugh, ambivalence. I hate it, at least when I don't like it...

Kurn. Worf's brother was now a suicidal wreck after being an awesome character in TNG.

"Sons of Mogh", for me, was an extremely compelling story. The inclusion of Worf and all of the subplots orbiting him allowed some development, of the likes one would not expect from most dramas. DS9 allowed new ideas to take place, based on existing ones.

Voyager and the Borg. Voyager was a brand new ship with new weapons and all that. Still, sometimes it felt that Voyager was a bit too strong when fighting the Borg. Enterprise-D got few shots in before the Borg adapted. After that no matter how much the Enterprise fired, it worked only once when Commander Shelby had an idea with the phasers.

TNG mucked up the Borg - twice - even before VOY got there. I've never particularly liked how "I Borg" changes characters to suit the one-dimensional preached narrative. The Borg Queen upends what was told (more than once) about the Collective. Prior to that, "Descent" implies the entire Collective has gone schizo. Fan canon, fanon, can allow some juggling and say that a Queen may have come about internally to the Collective in order to regroup, but 90s Trek was playing a bit fast and loose and using silly lines like "Oh, your silly three dimensions, just look how small you've become" - which translate to "We're scribbling around this plothole and don't you prefer TNG when it was cerebral, Q made promises we ditched after one rushed movie, and not the John McLane in space trope we're latching on to forevermore?"

Here's the actual movie transcript to explain the Queen's retroactive introduction into canon when she was hot for Locutus: "You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become."

But I digress. VOY, at the time, felt like it was bypassing the I Borg/Descent/Queen treatment as if they never took place, at least in "Scorpion". No worries, the Queen would return later in VOY, played by two actors who really made the role their own. More wonderfully vile ambivalence, the concept of the Queen I never cared for but the acting sold me on it. Each and every time.

And the Hansen story. TNG made the first contact with the Borg. Until VGR robbed that. Hansens knew of cube shaped ships and few things about the Borg before meeting the Borg. If there was some knowledge about the Borg during season 2 of TNG one might imagine that Starfleet had told something about the Borg to the flagship. But no.

While the Borg had scooped up bases along the Neutral Zone, the franchise would be a bit woolly and loose with that as well. Not to mention, VOY needed to be a bit more consistent with its own worldbuilding: The Hansens flip-flopped more than a model 555 Integrated Circuit chip. But at least we all got to cry on cue. "Dark Frontier" did upend what little was robustly told in "Raven", but most of 'Raven" was sufficiently woolly to allow wiggle room. But some of it all still upended continuity that was established too sternly. But even in TNG, the Borg went from wanting only others' technology no matter how inferior it was for whatever reason (read "Pakleds on steroids AND crack") but then they wanting others, starting with Jean-Luc Picard as a figurehead. "I Borg" goes back to the "they're a single species" thanks to Dr Crusher's whinging, which slightly upends their desire to assimilate humanity (and by extension other species) as the Collective is a gestalt comprised of numerous species, which VOY was very consistent on throughout its run. In other and fewer words, sadly, had the same problems and for the same general reasons I adumbrated above: Worldbuilding and keeping the show fresh and exciting.

Writers shouldn't borrow too much. Don't ruin TNG ”legacy”.

With Worf, they - I felt - usually did put in more care and thought into the arcs and storylines. Enhancing but not blatantly altering or retconning.

At least it's not a prequel; ENT and others really drive me up the wall as it's too easy to fudge continuity for fanwank and general audiences aren't going to care. Otherwise they would have done "Caprica" before "Battlesta Galactica". The ongoing saga always feels more interesting than a saga followed by "Are there any plotholes that fans may or may not be thinking of? Let's explore those" and then write in stuff that breaks the already established saga, which the established fans are going to find annoying, depending on how they perceived the saga's buildup from its actual start and not the retconned prequel one. That's just how fans are. Imagine if Shakespeare did a prequel to "Romeo and Juliet", something I certainly would not want to read. We know the families had their little feud but was it important and worthy of its own story? Not necessarily, we already know it's sufficiently big that it makes us focus far more on Romeo and Juliet having the hots for one another and their struggles. Writing a prequel retroactively had better be a robust entry to enhance the material it's leading up to, as well as keeping continuity issues minimal. That is not an easy task, even for those who created the main show and the prequel as an afterthought. And now do I fathom it, should there be a sequel? Again, what's to tell; the Capulets and Montagues will probably make up after the tragedy or their hate for each other will increase because they're two lots of nutters and nothing more. Just be glad they don't have semiautomatics or nukes. Then again, Bonanza The Next Generation almost worked and Star Trek TNG did work (albeit after a year or so) so who knows. They're also several centuries too early for a very special installment of The Jerry Springer Show, which is probably unfortunate. Never mind reboots, which nowadays generally have no clue what they're utilizing beyond the more superficial aspects...

While I type this I realize that some of the things I find annoying might feel the exact opposite to others. But hey, opinios can't be wrong, right? At least opinions about television series. :)

Even if you don't agree with any of the things I mentioned, try not to hate me. :)

It's all good and why would anyone hate you?! Differing opinions gets some of us to think and/or think differently. And/or the same, it depends on the facet(s). :D
 
I didn't so much judge the actor, as the character. It's like they were deliberately trying to have a captain who didn't behave like Picard, & that basically meant... a terrible captain, who when left unopposed, constantly made poor choices, as a default

Brooks and Mulgrew were both great in their roles. There are plenty of episodes from each spinoff proving that, so the only issue (to me) is with the increasingly uneven scripting, especially in VOY onward.

However, as to the OP. Honestly, I don't really have this problem, because in hindsight, I have very much compartmentalized all the shows at this point. Sure, they're all part of the same lore, but I almost never compare them to one another, & that has been a good philosophy as they now continue to add more content

Same here. Anything with continuity I generally kept to its own series, unless it's a prequel as those claim to tie into a later decade/iteration, in which case there are logistical standards that need to be put in. No, not how garish and lens flare-loaded the visuals are but the in-universe advances, and lack thereof. The first time we saw a holographic projector for real time communications was in DS9. Nothing like it existed before. It is the height of playwright sloppiness to then use the same construct in an era that takes place a century earlier. Shakespeare would be rolling in his grave, at 7200RPM if not faster, over such lamentable idiocy scribbled into the script. Prequels by their own design mean they're setting up future events and a little care and thought has to be put in. Rather, a lot more care compared to a sequel and that's where even the most established writers in tune with their own series stumble, so a bunch of people unfamiliar with the franchise's timeline aren't going to do any better unless they triple-check beforehand. For holographic projectors, that's too easy as far as low hanging proverbial fruit goes but it's not the only example. Modern audiences aren't so shallow that they can't handle viewscreens the way even the JJ movies had. Or if the makers of the prequel believe audiences can't, that's even more dim...

Rarely, in watching DS9, did I think back to every last syllable in TNG. I saw it as a continuation and after a point I didn't look back. Some plot elements and core species philosophy are so strongly created and ingrained (e.g. the Borg) that it's easier to say "Whoa, there's something not right here" when too much liberty is taken.

TNG is what it was. DS9 is something different, just as TOS, VOY, ENT, DSC etc... are. The way I feel about each is its own entity, & can't spoil or be spoiled due to the others. I even think of it that way when considering TOS & their movies. The show & the movies aren't the same entity, and while I was very irked at the time the TNG movies came out, now that I've gotten some separation, I've begun to see the TNG movies as being equally unrelatable to that show, just like I do with the TOS films,

That happened right around the time the Abrams reboots happened. I just said F### it. There's no way to relate all this to one another. Accept each iteration as its own thing. Do it now, before this new Picard show shatters you yet again... because it is without a doubt going to

Thankfully TNG had the sense to start 78 years later, allowing most of these arguments to be bypassed by default. DS9 and later were in the same timeline and were more contentious, but at least carried by and large the same philosophies and without going too overboard.

For Picard, I'm still going in with an open mind. 30 years have passed and the premise involves him stumbling in a big operation - presumable Borg-related since the Borg are big enough. Not to mention, given the complaints from the 80s/90s about TNG being too emotionless (the old joke about Data being the most human never got old despite always being stale), there's no way they're going to keep continuity in that regard and I don't blame them. Seven's already-shown dialogue in the teaser already proved it, at the same time what we have seen of Picard also happens to pass as being in-character and in-continuity. If not approaching season one cheesiness but so little was shown.

Back to Seven, in real life many of us traumatized severely don't end up being pristine cardboard cutout chipper as suggested in that teaser, but it's not impossible either.

But the fact remains, if there is a line between accepting creative liberties at face value and fair expectation in a show that is directly connected to another (or, in this case, TWO others), I'll probably find it a lot easier to accept whatever's happened to Picard (especially if it's about the Borg) and I might be convinced with Seven being a more emotionally-ranged person now and even some scenes in VOY showed a shift from being all Borgie to a personality with a wider range of emotional responses. Does anybody have some cheesecake?

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Noting that lactose intolerance might be a real reaction that might be perceived as being poisoned?
 
TNG has aged less well than I expected. It's themes and reflection of it's time of making, it's look and it's format. That's not to say that I dislike it - I'm a fan, but...it shows it's age.

DS9 doesn't. Or at least not so blatantly. It's arc based format, relative lack of "planet of the week" plotlines and phenomenal supporting cast, together with proper character development for even recurring characters set it more in the vein of current shows. It's DS9 that I view as the peak of pre Disc. Trek.

Voyager - wasted opportunity and TNG-lite. Passable, but that's about it.
 
I'm a TNG fanatic and did watch DS9 years ago but these days DS9 is not my thing. Right now that is, it may change?

I was lukewarm and uneven of it at the time, but it had some great eps at the time. A couple years ago or so I did do a rewatch and became a fanatic of it. So, yes, it can change.

With 'Voyager' I'm in the same situation as you are, I haven't watched and learned it inside out, recently I have been going through the early episodes.

To me, the show doesn't begin until "Scorpion". Season 3 had an improvement, but even in rewatching the earlier seasons pre-season 4 is more miss than hit.

ENT, that is a fun show, I haven't watched it in a while but it's worth watching, especially the arc of season 3.

I never got into it. Mocked the Xindi and Earth (not) being destroyed as a sweeps week event. Season 4 showed some promise, even if some of it was fanwank - not unlike some of what DSC has done. But prequels are entirely different beasts and there's only one I've liked (Pennyworth). Origin stories and such have big shoes to fill and rarely do they have the oomph to do it, I just accept whatever the main show hints at is sufficient - it generally is. (Rogue One wastes 2 hours exploring a 2 minute bit of dialogue in Star Wars ANH as well as having too many bits that prevent a seamless connection to the episode it's ostensibly filling in any alleged gaps of.)

With TOS it's been a while too, I need to watch it again sometime.

A lot of it is fun, a lot of it is dated, a lot of it is cringe. And yet "The Gamesters of Triskeleon" is one that's improved a lot for me (despite a couple hiccup moments) whereas the Tribble outing is just 50 minutes of faff.
 
TNG has aged less well than I expected. It's themes and reflection of it's time of making, it's look and it's format. That's not to say that I dislike it - I'm a fan, but...it shows it's age.

Every incarnation does. TV shows do reflect on some level the times in which they're made. Perhaps not directly as well...

DS9 doesn't. Or at least not so blatantly. It's arc based format, relative lack of "planet of the week" plotlines and phenomenal supporting cast, together with proper character development for even recurring characters set it more in the vein of current shows. It's DS9 that I view as the peak of pre Disc. Trek.

DS9 was a first with the arcs and so on. The other fact is, its themes often have not dated. And likely won't. Because DS9 accepted human nature not unlike the lines of TOS instead of saying 24th century humans are now perfect proto-Vulcans. It was a fairly popular show at the time, and if people like DSC for its grit they should by extension adore DS9 and not just because DS9 was telling something new as opposed to retconning itself as a prequel.

Voyager - wasted opportunity and TNG-lite. Passable, but that's about it.

^^this
 
Mulgrew...
She didn't strike me as being someone I would want to follow. Her authority was a joke. Just because you raise your voice at someone doesn't mean they suddenly respect you as a leader. What did she ever do to make her crew want to follow her? Nothing.
I remember the episode where the Neelix guy had his lungs stolen from him and the crew caught the baddies. Instead of getting the lungs back via surgery and putting them back in Neelix, she gave some lame speech about not taking the lungs back because it would damage the bad guy. Who in the hell would follow a leader that showed such little concern for her own crew? She never shows any actual concern for her crew.
She is condescending to her crew on most occasions, makes terrible decision after terrible decision, and her voice is about as annoying as anything on television.
She is the main reason I think the show sucks. Someone that bad at her job would have been sent out the first photon torpedo hatch.
 
Pretty sure the person those lungs had been implanted into was totally oblivious of how their source too, and would die without them.
 
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