Spider-Man: Webshooters? Mechanical/Organic or Both?

[Greg Cox]

Let's be honest. This isn't about the relative "realism" of organic versus mechanical webshooters. It's about tradition and nostalgia. Older fans like the webshooters because, damnit, that's the way Stan wrote it back in the sixties and that's what we're used to. If somebody created Spider-Man tomorrow, nobody would blink at an eye at him shooting webs from his wrists. That would just be how his powers worked.

The funny thing is, I haven't heard Stan complain about the organic webshooters . . . .

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ I agree with this.

 

[JoeZhang]

Except he'd run out of web fluid much faster with organic webshooters, because he couldn't carry spare cartridges on his belt. Not to mention that he'd end up dehydrated and nutrient-deficient from spewing all that biomass out of his body.

No you are wrong, because he summons it from a magic dimension or his ass, one or the other I'm not sure.

Who gives a shit? The writer can make either work.

 

[dru]

Unless it's organic and exclusive to him, his motives are frequently contradictory. He seeks personal fame (at first) yet doesn't capitalize on a device that could itself make him world famous. He lives in poverty yet doesn't sell it to make money. He wants to fight crime yet doesn't sell/exploit a device that could give him more free time to fight crime or could give many others the ability to fight crime.

The webbing is not permanent and dissolves in minutes, not years. There are a wide number of advances in materials science in that universe which are not applicable to our reality. Who is to say his webbing is all that advanced there and not in the range of a serious nerd?

The shooters should be mechanical.

Persons hung up on this stuff should probably move on from superheroes, fantasy, operatic sci-fi and the like.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Unless it's organic and exclusive to him, his motives are frequently contradictory. He seeks personal fame (at first) yet doesn't capitalize on a device that could itself make him world famous. He lives in poverty yet doesn't sell it to make money. He wants to fight crime yet doesn't sell/exploit a device that could give him more free time to fight crime or could give many others the ability to fight crime.

The webbing is not permanent and dissolves in minutes, not years.

You say that as if it contradicts some point I made in that paragraph (or elsewhere for that matter), but for the life of me I can't figure out what it is. The fact that it dissolves quickly on its own in air would be a hugely positive selling point, not a negative one. That means no messy clean-up after it's used and anyone/anything trapped by the webbing would be free in a matter of minutes, so collateral damage would be nil. It's the perfect nonlethal weapon for high density urban environments and a fantastic accident avoidance/impact dampening system, amongst many other possible uses.

There are a wide number of advances in materials science in that universe which are not applicable to our reality. Who is to say his webbing is all that advanced there and not in the range of a serious nerd?

Really? A roll-eyes over a friendly discussion about Spider-Man's webshooters? It would be nice if that emoticon would be used for something truly worthy of scorn more than once out of every forty times at best.

The shooters should be mechanical.

Persons hung up on this stuff should probably move on from superheroes, fantasy, operatic sci-fi and the like.

Unless they happen to agree with your interpretation, in which case it's apparently perfectly fine to get "hung up" on it.

I have quite literally spent no time caring about or being "hung up" on this issue until the topic was brought up here and I decided to give my opinion, as tends to happen on discussion forums. I simply thought it was a fun idea to talk about, not anything serious.

And no, I have no need nor desire to move on from superheroes, fantasy, space opera and so forth, thanks. In fact, that doesn't even make much sense since neither choice: mechanical or organic - is terribly realistic. I was simply discussing what I felt was more natural from a storytelling standpoint in the films. If you disagree that's fine, I just don't understand the sarcastic emoticon and accusations of being "hung up" or unable to deal with scifi/fantasy when my idea is every bit - if not more - fantastical.

 

[Christopher]

Let's be honest. This isn't about the relative "realism" of organic versus mechanical webshooters. It's about tradition and nostalgia.

No, it's about story potential. A lot of cool stuff has been done with Spidey's mechanical webshooters in the comics, and I found them interesting to write about and explore in my Spidey novel. They're a well-developed idea and you can do a lot with them. So I don't see any benefit in giving up something that has so much story potential.

By contrast, the organic webshooters are just kind of... there. I can understand using them in a movie, for reasons that were alluded to above; a movie has to be streamlined in its storytelling and gloss over details, so you want to keep things simple and not dwell on the technicalities. But for an ongoing series, the ability to explore details and side issues is invaluable. The kind of complications and digressions and texture that get in the way of movie storytelling are the bread and butter of serialized comic-book storytelling.

Now, if the mechanical shooters had never existed, if it had been organic all the way, I'm sure the comic writers could've developed some interesting and story-worthy ramifications over the years. But I don't know, because even when the comics did adopt the organic shooters in theory, they never did anything with them; they just glossed over the question altogether and then reverted to mechanical shooters without explanation in Brand New Day. I won't be so arrogant to assert that as "proof" that there are no stories to tell about organic webshooters, because, as you say, the writers could've been motivated by nostalgia; the adoption of organic shooters wasn't something that arose, err, organically from the comics, but that got imposed on them because of a desire to imitate the movies. Maybe they didn't come up with anything interesting to do with the organic shooters because they simply didn't try. I don't know.

But I have yet to be convinced that anything can be done with organic webshooters that's as interesting and varied as what's been done with the mechanical webshooters over the decades, because nobody's really tried yet. Does that mean it shouldn't be tried? No, of course not. There may be lots of untapped story potential waiting to be discovered. But I don't know for sure that there is. What I do know is that the mechanical webshooters have lots of established potential, and I don't see any reason to let that potential be abandoned.

 

[Mr Light]

Mechanical. That's the way it was for forty years. And Peter's supposed to be a genius.

 

[Nardpuncher]

But that way madness lies. Where does the Hulk's additional body mass come from? How do Mr. Fantastic's internal organs work when they're stretched all out of proportion? How can the Invisible Girl see? Heck, how does Spidey manage to stick to walls through his gloves and boots? And don't get me started on "unstable molecules" or Black Bolt's nuclear vocal cords . . . .

The "one fanciful element" allowed is that getting bitten by a radioactive spider gives you spider-powers. If we accept that a spider-bite can give Pete super-strength, super-agility, the super-adhesive ability to cling to walls, and a psychic "spider-sense" that alerts him to danger, why are we balking at him being able to spin webs, too? Why is that beyond the pale?

Especially in an universe in which people routinely fire energy bolts from their fingertips . . . . .

Well put!
I remember watching that Flash TV show in 1990 and they'd show the Flash eating a whole bunch of junk food soon after he accidentally ran 100 miles or something.
I recall thinking that was unnecessary because really, how many calories does running 100 miles in one second burn? Probably a million!
You just sort of accept that he know has the power to run fast, and that that power is not fed by food, but is all atomic-like or nuclear or radioactive or whatever.

 

[Mr Light]

He taps into the Speed Force

 

[Greg Cox]

Mechanical. That's the way it was for forty years.

Like I said, this is about nostalgia and tradition. Not what makes the most sense.

 

[Admiral_Young]

@ Dru Telling someone they are hung up on something on a TrekBBS board when they themselves are presumably a science fiction and Star Trek fan and get into nitpicking arguements like this is laughable at best. I always laugh when I see fans attack other fans using this kind of statement.

As for the explanation of how the organic webshooters work and why he'd have spinnerets from his writs...I'm sure that JMS or Joe Q used the logic of oh this is where Peter had his mechanical web shooters so let's make his organic shooters in that place as well and hope not too many fans discuss anatomically correct issues. It really doesn't matter, not everything has to be explained. Sometimes I subscribe to the "Farscape" way of thinks "Don't explain".

 

[Mr Light]

There's been so many stories that revolve around him forgetting to bring more cartridges or somebody stealing it or so and so forth. All those would be gone *sniff*

Also... there's some unsettling implications on the visual if they're biological... I remember the constant jokes my friends made about the "organic" web shooters in the movie...

 

[Christopher]

As for the explanation of how the organic webshooters work and why he'd have spinnerets from his writs...I'm sure that JMS or Joe Q used the logic of oh this is where Peter had his mechanical web shooters so let's make his organic shooters in that place as well and hope not too many fans discuss anatomically correct issues.

Credit where credit is due: the storyline that introduced the organic webshooters was written by Paul Jenkins, in his run on The Spectacular Spider-Man (collected in TPB form as Disassembled, because it was a loose tie-in to the Avengers: Disassembled event, and because in a way it involved Peter being taken apart and put back together in a new form, cocooned by some insect-queen monster and emerging "reborn" with new powers). Jenkins' run on Peter Parker and Spectacular tends to get overlooked in the shadow of JMS's Amazing run, which is a shame, because Jenkins did good work (although Disassembled was probably the worst storyline of his entire run on Spidey).

JMS never even acknowledged the events of Disassembled; indeed, the following year, he, Peter David, and Reginald Hudlin collaborated on The Other: Evolve or Die, in which Peter "died," formed a cocoon, and emerged with new powers -- and not one character even mentioned that something almost identical had just happened a short time before. The powers JMS gave Spidey were "stinger" spikes coming out of his wrists (again the fixation with the wrists) and an enhanced spider-sense that was based on an amplification of real spider senses (totally ignoring the "talk to insects" sense that Jenkins had abortively given him).

 

[Admiral_Young]

Okay thanks for the clarification Christopher, I did forget that Jenkins came up with the idea for Dissembled and "The Other" retconned it. I remember not being much of a fan of "The Other" or the new powers. "The Other" also was the set up arc for Tony becoming Peter's mentor and having him work at Stark (I think this happened during the story arc) and building the Iron Spider suit.

 

[Greg Cox]

The best superhero origins tend to be elegant in their simplicity. Superman is a strange visitor from another planet. Billy Batson says a magic word and turns into Captain Marvel. Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider and get the abilities of a spider. Why clutter them up with unnecessary complications?

Suppose Billy Batson only got part of his powers from saying "Shazam," but also had to build a homemade jetpack to help him fly?

Or if Superman got most of his powers from being Kryptonian, but needed special laser goggles to have heat-vision?

Or Spider-Man got all his other powers from a spider-bite, but needed mechanical webshooters to . . . oh wait.

 

[Nardpuncher]

^^ True. Sort of tripping over the finish line if you give him most of the extraordinary powers of a spider but not the web spinning one.

I'd think that Stan Lee would've been amenable to the idea of organic web shooters back in the days he created Spider-Man, but maybe it just would've seemed too 'icky' back then. Also, the idea of a mechanical web shooter at least has a coolness/gadget factor that is obviously missing from organic shooters.

Did anyone else feel it funny in the first Spider-Man movie when Peter is excitedly shooting his goo all around his room and Aunt May knocks on the door and asks what he's doing and he answers breathlessly that he was 'just exercising'?!

 

[Silvercrest]

Or if Superman got most of his powers from being Kryptonian, but needed special laser goggles to have heat-vision?

Conner Kent actually had that, for a while.

Did anyone else feel it funny in the first Spider-Man movie when Peter is excitedly shooting his goo all around his room and Aunt May knocks on the door and asks what he's doing and he answers breathlessly that he was 'just exercising'?!

Puberty hits some of us in strange ways, apparently.

Seriously, I was wondering what the heck his problem was. All of his other practice was done well away from home, but here he's tearing up his room. Even aside from "how am I going to explain this", I wouldn't want to destroy my own stuff.

 

[Christopher]

The best superhero origins tend to be elegant in their simplicity. Superman is a strange visitor from another planet. Billy Batson says a magic word and turns into Captain Marvel. Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider and get the abilities of a spider. Why clutter them up with unnecessary complications?

Who says it's unnecessary? Peter's scientific skill was part of his character from the very beginning. Look at the very earliest Lee-Ditko stories and you'll see Spidey constantly saving the day by whipping up brilliant new inventions or chemical formulae. One of the things that makes Spidey a great character is that he's not just about superpowers and brute force; it's his human attributes, his brain and his heart and his will, that are ultimately more important to his victories than some accident of genetics. The powers alone didn't make him special, they just gave him an avenue to develop and apply the special intelligence he already had. He was a wish fulfillment fantasy for high-school nerds, because he was able to use his brilliance in a heroic and exciting way rather than just doing well on tests and getting socially ostracized for it.

The webshooters are just one aspect of Peter's ingenuity, along with the Mylar "eyes" in the mask, the Spider-Signal, the spider-tracers (and the tracker he originally used to follow them), the automatic camera, etc. All of those are manifestations of the inventive genius that has always been a core aspect of Peter Parker's character. (I know, he didn't invent the automatic camera, but it still took cleverness to figure out that he could use it to take pictures of himself and make money.) He's always been as much gadget-based as power-based. Take away his inventiveness and he's not Spider-Man anymore.

(Indeed, that was the one thing I liked least about JMS's Spidey run; he tended to emphasize Spidey's brute strength rather than his ingenuity. I felt that was overlooking one of the crucial elements of his character. Although to be fair, JMS's Spidey did often think his way out of crises as well, like the climax of the initial Morlun story. But JMS just seemed more interested in the muscle and machismo.)

 

[coolghoul]

As for the explanation of how the organic webshooters work and why he'd have spinnerets from his writs...I'm sure that JMS or Joe Q used the logic of oh this is where Peter had his mechanical web shooters so let's make his organic shooters in that place as well and hope not too many fans discuss anatomically correct issues.

Credit where credit is due: the storyline that introduced the organic webshooters was written by Paul Jenkins, in his run on The Spectacular Spider-Man (collected in TPB form as Disassembled, because it was a loose tie-in to the Avengers: Disassembled event, and because in a way it involved Peter being taken apart and put back together in a new form, cocooned by some insect-queen monster and emerging "reborn" with new powers). Jenkins' run on Peter Parker and Spectacular tends to get overlooked in the shadow of JMS's Amazing run, which is a shame, because Jenkins did good work (although Disassembled was probably the worst storyline of his entire run on Spidey).

JMS never even acknowledged the events of Disassembled; indeed, the following year, he, Peter David, and Reginald Hudlin collaborated on The Other: Evolve or Die, in which Peter "died," formed a cocoon, and emerged with new powers -- and not one character even mentioned that something almost identical had just happened a short time before. The powers JMS gave Spidey were "stinger" spikes coming out of his wrists (again the fixation with the wrists) and an enhanced spider-sense that was based on an amplification of real spider senses (totally ignoring the "talk to insects" sense that Jenkins had abortively given him).

Actually this particular line of thought has been revisited multiple times in the Spidey universe. There's Jenkins take on disassembled (which curiously enough, I just finished reading and returned to the library today). It had a couple of good moments - between Spidey and Cap America (Cap berates Spidey for jumping into things without thinking things thru or waiting for proper backup. And Spidey responds that he had heard that Cap used to be like that once. Cap's face is priceless!). However, the storyline had the insect-queen monster make "drones" out of several people in NYC. And she's going to blow up a bomb in NYC - the thinking being that she would survive just as cockroaches survive and so would *some* people who had a dominant "insect-gene" or something. And spidey deactivates the bomb by "learning" about it by reading the minds of the "drone-people".

In disassembled, Peter becomes a Spider literally(reminds me of the earlier storyline that was also revisted in the 90s cartoon!) and actually births himself - ie. the big spider dies and a "changed" Peter Parker steps out of the spider's abdomen!

JMS kind of revisited the same idea in The Other but at least stretched it and kept revisiting it into several stories later - introducing Jezekiel, Morlun, the totemic powers etc. etc.

And then things were "reset" in some as yet mysterious way by OMD (since OMIT doesn't cover what happened differently in either Disassembled or The Other or the several stories about Morlun, Mothra, Jezekiel etc.).

But then the same idea gets kind of revisited in the recent arc about the return of the Lizard. Where humans have an "reptilian" side to their brain (similar to the insect-side that the Insect-Queen (what was her name?) was exploiting in Disassembled) and that the new Lizard is able to tap into.

Btw, I hated that arc because it changed status quo in the life of one of a key character in Spidey's roster. I won't spoil it. But I hated it, hated it, hated it. (Is this the "fun" stories that they were talking about that they wanted to revisit after Peter reverts to being a bachelor? Ugh!!)

 

[coolghoul]

(Indeed, that was the one thing I liked least about JMS's Spidey run; he tended to emphasize Spidey's brute strength rather than his ingenuity. I felt that was overlooking one of the crucial elements of his character. Although to be fair, JMS's Spidey did often think his way out of crises as well, like the climax of the initial Morlun story. But JMS just seemed more interested in the muscle and machismo.)

Actually in reference to that, I really liked how JMS revisited the "radioactive blood" side of things after going on and on about Spider-People and Anansi and so on. Was that what you were talking about in reference to the initial Morlun story?