Speculation on the Voth

[Vastator]

Yeah I know Christopher will be doing a novel about them possibly in the future and I know I made a topic about the Voth before but this one is a bit different. This one is about speculating about the race; their history, society and all.

What do we know from the TV show?
*They currently reside in the Delta Quadrant
*They are an evolution of the dinosaurs who became sentient and left their world
*They have forgotten their origins
*They are led by the Ministry of Elders and have several Circles of Science
*They possess transwarp technology as well as phase cloaks
*They make use of large city ships and have some small scout ships the latter of which is confirmed to use ship based versions of phase cloaks
*They seem capable of entering into a hibernative state and can shoot some quills that can render a Human unconscious and also make use of vasodilation

So the questions and speculation can begin.
Its said that they come from Earth so how evolved were they before they abandned the planet? I'm assuming they left because of an extinction level asteroid crashing into their world so presumably they were at last perhaps Vulcan level when proto-Vulcans left their world. But the question remains how they got all the way to the Delta Quadrant? Did a wormhole swallow them up and deposit them there like it did to the Romulans? Because they could have settled some others world in the Alpha Quadrant and restarted there rather then be so far away.

There is the alternate theory that they were taken from their homeworld by another more advanced race but Odala mentioned that she saw her race leaving their homeworld in a way that suggested that they left on their own accord but considering that most don't know their origins then its possible that she doesnt even know how they came to their new home. Personally, I prefer the former as it would make some distinction from the Clan Ru who were taken from Earth by some advanced race.

In relation to that point, they seem to have forgotten their origins. How could this happen? Some speculation I heard somewhere was that they perhaps made use of sleeper ships and that, after a violent encounter through a wormhole, their ships computers got damaged and the race suffered some form of collective amnesia. From the episode, the Ministry of Elders are aware of their origins at the minimum.

Its been a while since I saw the episode but Chakotay said that the Voth survived their trek into the Delta Quadrant and later discovered Transwarp. Again, its been a while since I saw it but the way it was said suggested that the Voth tend to get stagnant and only some pioneers made discoveries. Also, I think it was said that if they learnt of transwarp then some great disaster would happen, does this mean that they might have encountered that transwarp based evolution that was seen in "Threshold"?

The way Gegan's assistant interacted with him as well as the concept of the Ministry of Elders; it seems to suggest that the Voth show a great deal of reverence to their elders. Perhaps I am reading too much into it but thats ho it came across to me.

They seem to see themselves as being superior to other races somewhat, I mean I think Gegan's assistant was a bit astounded to think that they were related to Humans after recovering that Voyager crewman's remains. Again might be reading too much into it here but thats what I thought.

We have seen that their "Ministry of Elders" makes use of a City-Ship so does this mean they are nomadic? I think in the episode, Odala the leader of the Ministry said that unless Gegan renounced Distant Origin then the Voyager crew would be interned at a detention colony where they would live their remaining days. So does that mean they do possess colonies and also make use of city-ships to hold their people?

They seem quite advanced from what we saw and reside in the Delta Quadrant, more or less the home of the Borg so does this mean that the Borg ignore them? Or have they actually fought off Borg incursions? After checking Memory Alpha, I saw a picture of an assimilated Voth so we can see that some have been captured by the Collective.

If the race became aware of Earth as its ancestral homeworld, from what we have seen, would they ignore it? Would they fight for it?

So what do you people think?

 

[SonicRanger]

Our knowledge of history is pretty tangled and confused if one tries to go back just a few thousand years -- anything back past the Chalcolithic Age is fuzzy as best.

Now imagine trying to accurately preserve history for 65 million years.

 

[Christopher]

Its said that they come from Earth so how evolved were they before they abandned the planet? I'm assuming they left because of an extinction level asteroid crashing into their world so presumably they were at last perhaps Vulcan level when proto-Vulcans left their world.

It's unlikely a technological civilization could've existed back then without leaving evidence we could find. Most remnants of such a civilization would decay, but some would be preserved indefinitely; for instance, ceramics are chemically analogous to fossils already and thus could last as long, and glass is virtually indestructible (in a chemical sense, if not a structural one). And the geological stratum corresponding to the time of their existence would probably show elevated levels of carbon, metals, and pollutants.

All we had in the episode was unsupported speculation about the Voth's origins. Rather than leaving Earth under their own power, it's far more likely that they were taken by some proto-Preserver aliens and only subsequently evolved intelligence -- like Clan Ru in First Frontier. Indeed, the same race may well have rescued both species' ancestors, sampling both herbivores and carnivores.

But the question remains how they got all the way to the Delta Quadrant? Did a wormhole swallow them up and deposit them there like it did to the Romulans? Because they could have settled some others world in the Alpha Quadrant and restarted there rather then be so far away.

Remember, we're dealing with a timespan of 65 million years. It would take less time than that for a civilization to migrate across the galaxy even without warp drive. There's no reason to assume they made it there in a single jump, any more than humans made it from East Africa to Hawai'i in a single jump.

In relation to that point, they seem to have forgotten their origins. How could this happen? Some speculation I heard somewhere was that they perhaps made use of sleeper ships and that, after a violent encounter through a wormhole, their ships computers got damaged and the race suffered some form of collective amnesia. From the episode, the Ministry of Elders are aware of their origins at the minimum.

Over the course of that many millions of years, I'd say it's unlikely that a civilization wouldn't forget its origins, especially in the absence of archaeological evidence. History always distorts the past, even over a paltry few centuries or millennia. We're talking something four or five orders of magnitude beyond that, beyond anything we have any experience or precedent for. Even assuming they evolved intelligence and civilization within a few million years of the K-T extinction, there would still have been thousands of different Voth civilizations that would've risen and fell in the interim, many of them rising through violence and destroying or rewriting the records of the previous regime. Time erodes everything, and truth is particularly vulnerable.

As for the Ministry, it was made crystal-clear that they didn't care about facts, only about the beliefs and assumptions on which their power structure was based. Their claims about their origins were most likely inventions formulated to suit their political and ideological agendas, and cannot be taken as fact.

Its been a while since I saw the episode but Chakotay said that the Voth survived their trek into the Delta Quadrant and later discovered Transwarp. Again, its been a while since I saw it but the way it was said suggested that the Voth tend to get stagnant and only some pioneers made discoveries.

"Stagnant" is a loaded and inaccurate word. Look over the span of human history, and periods of rapid progress and invention are infrequent exceptions to the normal pattern of long-term stability. Progress isn't a universal norm, it's a response to a specific situational need for innovation. We've been in a period of rapid progress for a couple of centuries, which seems like forever on an individual timescale, but in the grand sweep of human existence it's a temporary state, and the Voth have been around immensely longer.

Also, I think it was said that if they learnt of transwarp then some great disaster would happen, does this mean that they might have encountered that transwarp based evolution that was seen in "Threshold"?

"Threshold" was a mess of an episode that its own writers have renounced as non-canonical. It can be safely ignored, just as "The Alternative Factor"'s nonsensical claims about antimatter have been ignored by hundreds of Trek episodes.

We have seen that their "Ministry of Elders" makes use of a City-Ship so does this mean they are nomadic?
...
They seem quite advanced from what we saw and reside in the Delta Quadrant, more or less the home of the Borg so does this mean that the Borg ignore them? Or have they actually fought off Borg incursions?

These points will be addressed in an upcoming book.

If the race became aware of Earth as its ancestral homeworld, from what we have seen, would they ignore it? Would they fight for it?

I already addressed this in "Brief Candle" in Distant Shores. The Ministry of Elders would be inclined to destroy any evidence that conflicted with their doctrine. Earth is a whole planetful of evidence.

 

[captcalhoun]

considering recent reports that in the UK people aren't aware that Churchill is a real person and Robin Hood isn't, and those who do think Churchill is real think he was the first man on the moon, people not knowing where they came from after 65 million years is all too believable...

of course, everyone knows Churchill sells insurance...

 

[JD]

We have seen that their "Ministry of Elders" makes use of a City-Ship so does this mean they are nomadic?
...
They seem quite advanced from what we saw and reside in the Delta Quadrant, more or less the home of the Borg so does this mean that the Borg ignore them? Or have they actually fought off Borg incursions?

These points will be addressed in an upcoming book.

Hmmm, intersting. I'm assuming you wouldn't be willing to say any more at this point?

 

[Trent Roman]

^ Clearly, it's a hint for The Buried Age 2: The Buried-er Age.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[P0sitr0nic]

A Voth book would make me very happy. Ive loved the idea behind then since the episode first aired.

 

[Vastator]

It's unlikely a technological civilization could've existed back then without leaving evidence we could find. Most remnants of such a civilization would decay, but some would be preserved indefinitely; for instance, ceramics are chemically analogous to fossils already and thus could last as long, and glass is virtually indestructible (in a chemical sense, if not a structural one). And the geological stratum corresponding to the time of their existence would probably show elevated levels of carbon, metals, and pollutants.

But wouldnt an asteroid impact actually cover up a majority of this? I believe Chakotay and Gegan theorised that there might have been a sunken continent and geological changes that would have buried much of Voth civilization. They didnt discuss the Voth's technological development at the time though and I suppose those elements that you say would be preserved but couldnt these be buried and still awaiting discovery?

All we had in the episode was unsupported speculation about the Voth's origins. Rather than leaving Earth under their own power, it's far more likely that they were taken by some proto-Preserver aliens and only subsequently evolved intelligence -- like Clan Ru in First Frontier. Indeed, the same race may well have rescued both species' ancestors, sampling both herbivores and carnivores.

An interesting thought though why move them all the way to the Delta Quadrant then? The Clan Ru I think are in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant somewhere while the Voth were deposited very, very far away unless this was another proto-Preserver species whose home were in the Delta Quadrant.

Mind you, this wouldnt be the first time this happened considering those "Sky Spirit" aliens had travelled to Earth and passed on some skill to Chakotay's ancestors that allowed them to survive at that time. There were also those alien slavers that kidnapped quite a few Humans from Earth's past.

Remember, we're dealing with a timespan of 65 million years. It would take less time than that for a civilization to migrate across the galaxy even without warp drive. There's no reason to assume they made it there in a single jump, any more than humans made it from East Africa to Hawai'i in a single jump.

I would imagine such a journey being incredibly dangerous thoughgGranted most are but even the Romulans just made it because of a wormhole otherwise they were falling apart. And comparitively Romulus is a lot closer to Vulcan then the Voths new homeworld is to Earth with who knows what dangers being out there that could have destroyed them. Its just I find it somewhat difficult to imagine that they could make it entirely by themselves without falling apart in someway. Not saying their journey was nice and fun expedition or anything

Over the course of that many millions of years, I'd say it's unlikely that a civilization wouldn't forget its origins, especially in the absence of archaeological evidence. History always distorts the past, even over a paltry few centuries or millennia. We're talking something four or five orders of magnitude beyond that, beyond anything we have any experience or precedent for. Even assuming they evolved intelligence and civilization within a few million years of the K-T extinction, there would still have been thousands of different Voth civilizations that would've risen and fell in the interim, many of them rising through violence and destroying or rewriting the records of the previous regime. Time erodes everything, and truth is particularly vulnerable.

Indeed, I guess I forget how old the Voth really are so I suppose its quite concievable that the truth got distorted in time.

As for the Ministry, it was made crystal-clear that they didn't care about facts, only about the beliefs and assumptions on which their power structure was based. Their claims about their origins were most likely inventions formulated to suit their political and ideological agendas, and cannot be taken as fact.

Well when Odala answered Chakotay's question when he said that their "brave" race left their world in order to survive, she seemed a bit more genuine then before when she felt "disgraced" about their oigins but yeah I agree, anything she said cannot be taken as the truth.

"Stagnant" is a loaded and inaccurate word. Look over the span of human history, and periods of rapid progress and invention are infrequent exceptions to the normal pattern of long-term stability. Progress isn't a universal norm, it's a response to a specific situational need for innovation. We've been in a period of rapid progress for a couple of centuries, which seems like forever on an individual timescale, but in the grand sweep of human existence it's a temporary state, and the Voth have been around immensely longer.

Hmmm so essentially somewhat similar to Humanity then? So would that make the Voth who discovered transwarp drives despite his races objections to learning it the Zefram Cochrane of his species?

Also how advanced would they be then in the grand scheme of advanced races? Presumably much higher then the Federation. We have seen that they have phase cloaks, transwarp techology and the capacity to beam entire starships into their cityship as well as disable them through so means whether its some funky dampening beam or computer virus.

"Threshold" was a mess of an episode that its own writers have renounced as non-canonical. It can be safely ignored, just as "The Alternative Factor"'s nonsensical claims about antimatter have been ignored by hundreds of Trek episodes.

Hmmm didnt know that and knew it was a terrible episode but not on that level. I guess that can be swept away then.

These points will be addressed in an upcoming book.

Awesome, can't wait to see more on this front

I already addressed this in "Brief Candle" in Distant Shores. The Ministry of Elders would be inclined to destroy any evidence that conflicted with their doctrine. Earth is a whole planetful of evidence.

Ah yes sorry about that, don't have the book so wasnt sure in what context the Voth were addressed in it. I was thinking along the lines of if there was perhaps a movement like the Romulan/Vulcan Reunification Movement in Voth society that was seeking to learn the truth and return home.

 

[Christopher]

But wouldnt an asteroid impact actually cover up a majority of this? I believe Chakotay and Gegan theorised that there might have been a sunken continent and geological changes that would have buried much of Voth civilization. They didnt discuss the Voth's technological development at the time though and I suppose those elements that you say would be preserved but couldnt these be buried and still awaiting discovery?

Well, yes, they'd be buried, but that's how we know as much as we do about prehistory: because we've dug it up, or because erosion has exposed strata that were once buried. The "sunken continent" excuse doesn't wash, because any industrial civilization would have effects on a global scale, some examples of which I've already mentioned. The evidence wouldn't be isolated to a single place, but would be all over the planet.

Besides, any civilization that went into space on its own would undoubtedly have left remnants on other worlds in the Solar System, just as we've left Apollo landers on the Moon, various probes on Mars, and so forth. The Apollo landers are going to be around for millions of years, with micrometeoroids being the only source of erosion. If the Voth's ancestors had gotten into space on their own, then surely Federation scientists would've discovered their early probes and landers and moonbases and so forth.

An interesting thought though why move them all the way to the Delta Quadrant then? The Clan Ru I think are in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant somewhere while the Voth were deposited very, very far away unless this was another proto-Preserver species whose home were in the Delta Quadrant.

Again, don't make the mistake of assuming we're talking about a single event. Remember, we're dealing with a time scale maybe 1500 times greater than the entire existence of modern humans, nearly 10,000 times greater than recorded human history. The Voth's remote ancestors could've evolved to intelligence somewhere in the Alpha Quadrant, and over thousands and thousands of generations their descendants could've gradually migrated to the Delta Quadrant.

After all, a migration over that vast a span of time doesn't even have to be a conscious effort to cover that distance. It just sort of happens as populations wander. The human bands who migrated across Earth over the past 40,000 years weren't consciously trying to reach some distant destination; they just followed the food and the resources, looked around for nice places to live, etc., and very gradually, over countless generations, dispersed across the globe.

Indeed, it seems quite unlikely that the Voth were delivered directly to the DQ. Even Minister Odala claims that Voth history extends back only 20 million years, and she's one of those who are most invested in the idea of the Voth being the most ancient intelligence in the Delta Quadrant. So if even she's not able to justify claiming that the Voth have existed in the DQ for more than 20 megayears, that leaves a minimum of 45 megayears between the ancestral hadrosaur population and the beginning of the Voth's history in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Vastator]

Indeed, it seems quite unlikely that the Voth were delivered directly to the DQ. Even Minister Odala claims that Voth history extends back only 20 million years, and she's one of those who are most invested in the idea of the Voth being the most ancient intelligence in the Delta Quadrant. So if even she's not able to justify claiming that the Voth have existed in the DQ for more than 20 megayears, that leaves a minimum of 45 megayears between the ancestral hadrosaur population and the beginning of the Voth's history in the Delta Quadrant.

But couldnt that be simply aspects of their history that might be lost in some manner or the Ministrys way of trying to enforce Doctrine? As you said, considering the Voth races age, its possible several Voth civilizations started and fell during their "journey" or during their time in the Delta Quadrant. I know you said that they wouldnt be lost as such but they could have been distorted through time.

Sorry to be going on about it, I just found the topic somewhat interesting and read some people's views on the Voth so I just thought I would see what others thought. Thanks for answering by the way, Christoper. Oh and not relating to the topic but just got The Buried Age.

 

[Christopher]

But couldnt that be simply aspects of their history that might be lost in some manner or the Ministrys way of trying to enforce Doctrine?

There's no question that the history has been distorted, but the point is, Odala has a vested interest in claiming that the Voth's origins are as far back in time as she can possibly get away with claiming. Logically, given her agenda, you'd think she'd claim the Voth have been in the DQ since the beginning of time, like many Native American peoples claim about their own origins. So if even Odala can't justify claiming they're older than a paltry 20 megayears, then there must be some very, very compelling evidence that they weren't in the DQ prior to that, so that even the fiercest "Local Origin" fanatics can't get away with inflating the number above that. (The same way that Creationists have conceded the existence of what they call "microevolution" because the evidence of its existence is so ubiquitous and overwhelming that even they can no longer deny it if they hope to be taken at all seriously.) It's probable that Odala would overstate the duration of their species' existence in the DQ, but profoundly unlikely that she would understate it. So it's reasonable to conclude that the Voth (or their cultural and/or evolutionary ancestors) have been in the DQ no more than 20 My, possibly less. Which, therefore, leaves at least 45 My between their departure/removal from Earth and their arrival in the DQ.

(Of course, all this is predicated on the assumption that Odala was speaking in terms of Earth years, but ST pretty much always assumes that the universal translator automatically renders alien measurements into their Earthly equivalents.)

As you said, considering the Voth races age, its possible several Voth civilizations started and fell during their "journey" or during their time in the Delta Quadrant. I know you said that they wouldnt be lost as such but they could have been distorted through time.

I definitely did say that the evidence of their existence could've been lost. Sure, they could've left archaeological and geological evidence of their civilization on the planets they'd occupied, but that wouldn't be of any use to a migratory people who had left those planets behind and therefore had no access to that evidence. And even aside from that, the archaeo/geological remains would just show that a civilization had existed, and might reveal a little fragmentary information about what they looked like and what their technology was like, but the specifics of their culture and history would be far more ephemeral.