Soyuz

[Lakenheath 72]

I am not sure if the MSD would tell us anything informative.

Okuda did two types of MSDs:
1. A MSD with text (USS Enterprise-D)
2. A MSD with numbers (USS Brattain)

Based on the poor resolution of the Oberth-class starships in Star Trek: First Contact, it's not clear where the phasers are located. My best guess is that the armaments were located somewhere in the primary hull.

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe someone could ask Mike for more details?

 

[Timo]

My best guess is that the armaments were located somewhere in the primary hull.

Given the many roles of the ship, our best bet might be that everything is more or less modular. The lower pod could be extensively reconfigured with various sensors for various survey missions, or left empty for supply duty. But the primary hull could feature modular sensors, weapons or other equipment in two distinct location groups:

1) the three trapezoid openings at the rim of the saucer (a tad small for the shuttle hangar role even with 150 m interpretations)
2) the "covered trench" around the bridge

The latter seemingly consists of series of near-rectangular panels, each of which might hide a sensor or a weapon beneath. Or then every second of them, with a panel sliding atop another for proper exposure (although most sensors would have suitably radiation-transparent covers in place permanently).

None of the exposed greeblies look promising as weapons mounts... But perhaps an Oberth has weapons or weapons ports of a different generation from the other TOS movie ships, more in line with TOS and its "almost seamlessly covered" weapons.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Or similar to the NX-class phase cannon ports. Just pop up when needed.

 

[yenny]

Accordind to this, which is from the scripe itself. The Grissom was arm.

[FONT=courier, new] CHEKOV Sir, Starfleet calling Grissom again. A warning about us. KIRK Response? CHEKOV (a beat) Nothing. As before. KIRK What's Grissom up to?... Will they join us, or fire on us...? (thinks) Chekov, break radio silence. Send my compliments to Captain Esteban. CHEKOV Aye, sir. Chekov begins calling, as Kirk crosses easily to McCoy.[/FONT]

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Yes, that was already established when Dukhat earlier said on the previous page:

Kirk thought the Grissom would fire on him in STIII, so it must have had some kind of weaponry.

The question is, where is that weaponry located?

 

[Timo]

Of course, "they" might also fire at Kirk and his team with hand phasers while the heroes try to recover Spock's body... That would be the analogous pairing for them "joining" our heroes, as the joint operation would be a surface foray to the downed coffin.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Even as beat up as Enterprise was when she arrived at Genesis, Grissom would likely be no match for even an old starship. Of course when Chekov reports to Kirk, the Admiral doesn't know the shields will fail due to the automation system being overloaded by combat. But then, if he could see USS Grissom, he'd probably order the shields raised before firing on her. Grissom wouldn't (I would hope) have a cloaking device.

 

[Dukhat]

Of course, "they" might also fire at Kirk and his team with hand phasers while the heroes try to recover Spock's body...

I'm pretty sure that's not what Kirk meant.

 

[Timo]

Depends. The Grissom would automatically lose a space firefight (unless one counts in the problems with Enterprise weaponry, and Kirk wouldn't), so it might be unlikely for Kirk to speculate they would choose to start one. And Kirk could always simply dodge the lesser vessel and beam down regardless.

But a firefight on the surface would be a distinct possibility, especially at stun setting. And that might complicate things for Kirk, perhaps delaying him until actual armed opponents would arrive at the scene.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Personally, I don't like when there is speculation on who would win in a fight. Fights are dependent on a large number of variables. As an example, smaller ships have better maneuverability than larger ships. This has been demonstrated amply in Star Trek.

I understand, for the story, that Starfleet didn't send another ship after the Enterprise when the Grissom didn't respond. However, speaking hypothetically and looking at the incident in realistic terms, wouldn't Starfleet have sent another starship?

Not mentioned in this discussion, and relating to the third film, the audience learns that the Federation and the Klingons are in peace negotiations. Furthermore, according to DS9, there was another peace negotiation before the sixth movie. I have read of technology being retired as a consequence of peace negotiations. This is considered as a measure of good faith. Could the Soyuz-class be considered a casualty of these peace negotiations?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Personally, I don't like when there is speculation on who would win in a fight. Fights are dependent on a large number of variables. As an example, smaller ships have better maneuverability than larger ships. This has been demonstrated amply in Star Trek.

Normally, I would agree with this sentiment. Unfortunately, though, we're talking about Captain Esteban here - yes, he holds a Captain's grade and looks like a contemporary of at least Styles (another lacking leader), but of a generally unimportant vessel, doing research and survey missions well within Federation borders with no reasonable intention of getting into trouble with an adversary like the Soyuz class is oftentimes postulated to be, either as a border cutter or tactical frigate. Furthermore, Esteban's actions on the bridge of his ship (in the short time that we knew him) paint the picture of a very tentative individual with limited leadership qualities - always going by the book, quoting regulations, "playing it safe" and asking SF Command for guidance if any scenario falls even slightly outside his comfort zone. He was NOT a good captain by any stretch and even if the Enterprise was crippled, Kirk (having likely more than a passing knowledge of the weaknesses of the Oberth class than your random rogue Klingon border-jumper) could have easily vaporized the Grissom with no more than just a single shot (nothing "lucky" about it). And the Oberth is no Defiant.

 

[Wingsley]

I would cut Esteban some slack here. He was probably ordered to Planet Genesis after Kirk reported on what had happened there. Esteban was probably told by Admiral Morrow to play it as safe as possible there, keep things quiet, "or else". Starfleet knew this was both a potentially explosive and embarrassing situation, and likely wanted to keep a lid on it.

 

[Timo]

As an example, smaller ships have better maneuverability than larger ships. This has been demonstrated amply in Star Trek.

How so? The hit rate of big ships against madly maneuvering small ones is still exactly 100% - all that maneuvering is completely wasted effort as far as I can tell.

...wouldn't Starfleet have sent another starship?

No doubt. And it would have arrived at the scene in a day or two, supposedly.

We saw no other starships inside Spacedock Earth, apart from the Excelsior and that completely dark McQuarrie model around the corner. Previous chapters of Star Trek had not suggested there would be multiple starships available at any given spot, unless they were specifically assigned there or were undergoing repairs that supposedly prevented them from immediately scrambling.

Could the Soyuz-class be considered a casualty of these peace negotiations?

Considering the roller-coaster ride of negotiating with the Klingon Empire, I'm not sure Starfleet would give up anything for good. When the Klingons returned to the tables and said "We don't want to give up Archanis after all", Starfleet would just tell the crews to return to their idled Soyuzes...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[B.J.]

We saw no other starships inside Spacedock Earth, apart from the Excelsior and that completely dark McQuarrie model around the corner.

And that small, dark, boxy-looking ship next to the pylon. </can of worms>

 

[Dukhat]

Depends. The Grissom would automatically lose a space firefight (unless one counts in the problems with Enterprise weaponry, and Kirk wouldn't), so it might be unlikely for Kirk to speculate they would choose to start one. And Kirk could always simply dodge the lesser vessel and beam down regardless.

Hold on a sec. When Kirk was worried that the Grissom would fire on them, the Enterprise had only a crew of five, was already damaged from Khan, and had hardly any defensive capabilities to speak of. All the Grissom would have had to do was fire one shot to take out the Enterprise's engines and the Enterprise would have been permanently disabled. Plus, if Starfleet Command ordered Esteban to fire on the Enterprise, Esteban would have.

We saw no other starships inside Spacedock Earth, apart from the Excelsior and that completely dark McQuarrie model around the corner.

And that small, dark, boxy-looking ship next to the pylon. </can of worms>

That model was supposedly one of the study models Bill George built as one if the possibilities for the Merchantman.

 

[Timo]

Hold on a sec. When Kirk was worried that the Grissom would fire on them, the Enterprise had only a crew of five, was already damaged from Khan, and had hardly any defensive capabilities to speak of. All the Grissom would have had to do was fire one shot to take out the Enterprise's engines and the Enterprise would have been permanently disabled. Plus, if Starfleet Command ordered Esteban to fire on the Enterprise, Esteban would have.

Those are the facts of the matter as known to the audience. Kirk seemed to have a very poor idea of the combat capabilities of his own vessel, though. And he expressed no concerns when confronting the Klingons in space combat.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Wingsley]

If, for sake of argument, we agree (for the moment) that the Oberth was indeed the studio's answer to Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's Hermes-class starship, it would be reasonable to assume the Oberth (and thus, the Grissom) is outfitted with minimal armaments; perhaps a single phaser bank, or otherwise significantly less than other heavier ships like the Enterprise and Saratoga. As for where these weapons would be placed, and how they would operate, we have no clue. One thing should be clear: the refit Enterprise, Reliant/Saratoga and Oberth all appear to have the same general technology in terms of hulls, basic ship components, and other routine (for each of them, respectively) ship operations. So Grissom looks to be a "current" vessel for the fleet.

 

[Ithekro]

And Kirk would have issues firing on Grissom. Not only does he not have a good reason to shoot at yet another Starfleet vessel (after Reliant), but his son is onboard.

Kirk has no issues firing on Klingons.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I am looking at the images for Star Trek: First Contact at Trekcore.com. The Oberth-class fires a phaser beam from a central location on the primary hull.

This image shows the scout firing at the Borg cube.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/firstcontacthd/firstcontacthd0200.jpg

Based on the above image, the phaser is located in the trapezoid forward of the bridge. This image of the Grissom from Memory Alpha shows this area in greater detail.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110113210621/memoryalpha/en/images/1/1b/USS_Grissom_(fore).jpg

The odd thing is that there are similar areas on the port and starboard. If these were areas for phasers, the ship would be firing into its warp nacelles or have sharp angles up and down of the nacelles.