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Sooo, Batman and his 'one rule'...

It's like trying to say that a lie of omission isn't really a lie at all, even though it most certainly is.

No, it isn't. Everyone omits something every time they speak, because no conceivable utterance can comprise the totality of information. So by "lie of omission" standards every utterance is a lie.
Except that's not what the phrase refers to. It refers to intentionally leaving an important detail out that would influence the person/people you're talking to. It's exactly the same thing as lying; purposeful deceit.

From Batman Begins: "I don't have to save you."

Batman didn't kill Ra's, but as he said, he didn't have to save him. Letting a criminal die is not the same as killing him.
Please don't refer to the movies (Nolan or otherwise) when discussing Batman's moral code. He's constantly killing villains (and civilians; how many people died due to the countless automotive accidents he's caused alone?) whether directly or indirectly. He's little more than a psychopath, just one focused on taking out other psychopaths rather than innocent civilians.

And yes, letting someone die is the same thing as killing them yourselves. There's even real-world laws that basically state exactly that. It's like trying to say that a lie of omission isn't really a lie at all, even though it most certainly is.

That said, as a few others have mentioned, I like my superheroes to be actual heroes. People with moral codes that we ordinary folk wouldn't be able to live up to no matter how hard we tried.
Yes, a lie of omission is a lie. However, the situation with Batman refusing to save Ra's al Ghul at the climax of Batman Begins does not parallel a lie of omission.

First of all, it is not universally the law that bystanders must render aid. Secondly, where it is required that they do, generally the law is that bystanders are required to render aid only when they are not themselves endangered. By any definition applicable to ordinary people, saving Ra's from a falling train car would have been a dangerous act. Despite his extraordinary abilities, Batman would not be legally obligated to save anyone in such a situation.

As far as the moral question is concerned, at least with respect to the purported parallel with a lie of omission, there is no parallel. Ra's was in a trap of his own making, and the lethality of that trap was a result of the lethality of Ra's own plan for Gotham. In order to parallel a lie of omission, so that there would have been a moral obligation for Batman to act, Batman would have had to have created that trap in the first place, which he didn't. Only if Batman had created the trap would refusing to save Ra's from the trap be equivalent to killing Ra's.

About all that can be said of the actual situation is that Batman failed to live up to any higher standard transcending ordinary moral codes, under which a person heroically acts to save a life even at mortal risk to themselves. But Ra's was not an innocent victim of a criminal, and saving Ra's would likely have cost innocent lives down the road, given Ra's' stated plan for the city. Were those innocents who Batman might not be able to protect Batman's to risk as well?

I recently rewatched the 1989 movie and was surprised that I missed something in previous viewings: Batman sends the Batmobile (via remote control) into the Joker's factory/hideout to drop bombs in there and then speed away. Batman does not make sure the factory is empty and it is implied that his intention was to actually blow up the Joker.
Not only that, a lot of Joker's henchmen are blown up by the Batmobile's bombs.
 
And, as for the original intent of the question in this thread, my own two cents: no, it is not logical for Batman to not kill his enemies. They just break out and kill and kill and kill, thus making Batman totally irrelevant.

From what I've read of the comics it seems Joker is the only prominent villain who's really bloodthirsty, at least actively so, most of the others are either primarily interested in money and/or Batman manages to prevent the crimes from turning deadly. And he definitely has considered killing Joker, if not tried to do so in "A Death in the Family."
 
And, as for the original intent of the question in this thread, my own two cents: no, it is not logical for Batman to not kill his enemies. They just break out and kill and kill and kill, thus making Batman totally irrelevant.

From what I've read of the comics it seems Joker is the only prominent villain who's really bloodthirsty, at least actively so, most of the others are either primarily interested in money and/or Batman manages to prevent the crimes from turning deadly. And he definitely has considered killing Joker, if not tried to do so in "A Death in the Family."

And, interestingly, it was Superman who was put in charge to keep him in line.

Why? Killing doesn't bring them back to life, does it?

But Batman's thing is supposed to be justice. Hence, he should at least push the death penalty for the Joker. I mean: The man kills and kills and kills, yet he is still let go...and allowed - in "Death in the Family" - to be a diplomat!

(Kind of a commentary on the actual justice system...lol)
 
Why is killing justice? If Batman thinks killing is reprehensible when the Joker does it, he would arguably consistent to not apply a doublestandard when it comes to his killing. He can say "killing is killing." Obviously, this is a debate with the death penalty all the time, but there's no reason to assume Batman is in favor of the death penalty. However, even if he were, most proponents at least accept that Due Process is an important component with the death penalty. Batman would circumvent all that by just killing the Joker.
 
It's like trying to say that a lie of omission isn't really a lie at all, even though it most certainly is.

No, it isn't. Everyone omits something every time they speak, because no conceivable utterance can comprise the totality of information. So by "lie of omission" standards every utterance is a lie.
Except that's not what the phrase refers to. It refers to intentionally leaving an important detail out that would influence the person/people you're talking to. It's exactly the same thing as lying; purposeful deceit.

But who decides what constitutes an "important detail"? It's a much cleaner and objective standard to define a lie as a statement which is known by the speaker to be factually untrue and leave it at that. In other words, it seems at least a little dubious to say that a collection of factually true statements adds up to a lie. That the listener might want more information than they're getting - they always want more, after all - is really just too bad for them.
 
No, it isn't. Everyone omits something every time they speak, because no conceivable utterance can comprise the totality of information. So by "lie of omission" standards every utterance is a lie.
Except that's not what the phrase refers to. It refers to intentionally leaving an important detail out that would influence the person/people you're talking to. It's exactly the same thing as lying; purposeful deceit.

But who decides what constitutes an "important detail"? It's a much cleaner and objective standard to define a lie as a statement which is factually untrue and leave it at that. In other words, it seems dubious to say that a collection of factually true statements adds up to a lie. That the listener might want more information than they're getting - they always want more, after all - is really just too bad for them.

The point of a lie of omission is that the person telling it omits the detail with the intention of affecting the beliefs of the listener. The omitted detail is important precisely when omitting it influences the listener to believe one thing whereas including it would have instilled the opposite belief. Lie of omission example: "The Joker makes people smile." Omitted important detail: "It's with Smylex."
 
Why is killing justice? If Batman thinks killing is reprehensible when the Joker does it, he would arguably consistent to not apply a doublestandard when it comes to his killing. He can say "killing is killing." Obviously, this is a debate with the death penalty all the time, but there's no reason to assume Batman is in favor of the death penalty. However, even if he were, most proponents at least accept that Due Process is an important component with the death penalty. Batman would circumvent all that by just killing the Joker.

If I read your reply correctly, I would agree: Due Process before the death penalty for the Joker.

We've had various versions of the Joker so Batman not killing him to uphold his 'no killing stance' would make sense when it was a 'one off' appearance by that villain in regards to the movies or maybe even the animated tv series I have yet to see in full. However, the comics really show him to be a menace and someone who seems to continually get off easy w/o Batman really influencing anything...even the police or Arkham Asylum who continually takes in Joker and he continually escapes. And, even gets a crazy companion named Harley Quinn....;)

(Now that I remember, the one who finally kills Joker in the animated series is Tim Drake - one of the best Robin's - in "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker" and that was a live or die matter: Tim Drake was programmed to kill Batman, and it would have happened if he didn't get his will back and kill the Joker who was influencing him).

So, basically, when it's a long running series and a villain like the Joker continually shows up and murders while Batman is behind-the-scenes doing nothing...it doesn't really do anything for the character. Since we've mentioned due process, Batman should have a hand in that so justice is served. Otherwise, he is just all talk.

Another note: I like the way Nite Owl from Alan Moore's "Watchmen" seems to be more hands on. He is obviously another take on Batman, but Nite Owl seems to be one who would see that justice happens to the end....
 
My position is alternative. One explanation is Batman just thinks due process is important. But the alternative explanation is Batman just doesn't believe in killing period. And there's nothing inconsistent there. He doesn't believe the Joker should kill, he doesn't believe he should kill, even if the person he is killing is the Joker. He's out there to stop people and protect the public, not get revenge or to prosecute.
 
Haven't read the entire thread, but in the earliest comics, didn't Batman carry a gun and shoot people?
 
Haven't read the entire thread, but in the earliest comics, didn't Batman carry a gun and shoot people?
Yes and Superman wasn't adverse to tossing crooks into spinning propellers. That changed quickly as the characters became more popular. Mickey Mouse was another character who "cleaned up his act".
 
One thing I wonder about, since the Joker keeps getting back out of confinement one way or another, to kill again, why doesn't Bruce Wayne simply confine the Joker himself?

With his intelligence, Wayne could come up with a method of humanly locking the Joker up, that would keep him in.

No, this would not involve due process. But it would ensure (to a high degree) that the Joker wouldn't be kill more people.

:)
 
He could have called up his buddy Superman and had all his recurring supervillains sent to the Phantom Zone.
 
He could have called up his buddy Superman and had all his recurring supervillains sent to the Phantom Zone.
Nah, that's mostly for Kryptonians. Luthor breaks out of jail as often as the Joker. Hell, his costume for years was prison grays!
 
I never bought Batman's comment about not killing R'as in Batman Begins. He blew up the elevated tracks in front of a speeding train, boarded the train, sabotaged the brakes, engaged the occupant in combat and held him down as the train approached the gap he had created, then roped himself to safety leaving the other guy to die. It's like throwing him off a cliff and shouting, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you from your impending impact with the ground!" If you put a guy in a death trap, you don't get to claim innocence just because you don't stick around to witness the very end.
 
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