Soong type Androids technology

[Twilight Phoenix]

Check MooseFroos ! He's cool !

Well well...I had to create that topic someday ! ^^
@Mojochi and I have been discussing theories about how Data can grow hair, and it had me realize how little we know about the technology used in Soong Type Androids.
Of course it's only fiction, but that'd be interesting to talk about what our theories and ideas are on the matter ! Theories based on actual knowledge in robotics, algorithmics, computer sciences and neural networks are more than welcome !

So I'll get the ball rolling and wonder...As we know that a positronic brain is very prone to cascade failure, then why Lore and Data succeeded in surviving whereas Lal, whose brain was based on Data's template, did not ?

 

[Mojochi]

I love talking Soong android theories lol

So I'll get the ball rolling and wonder...As we know that a positronic brain is very prone to cascade failure, then why Lore and Data succeeded in surviving whereas Lal, whose brain was based on Data's template, did not ?

Actually, Lal isn't just based on Data's positronic network. Hers was formed via a new submicron matrix-transfer, meaning her matrix was literally created through a direct transfer from his (Which does make it seem more like she is his legitimate offspring) & I like to think that may have had something to do with her crash.

The process could've been faulty, or the other thing to consider is that Data is not like any other Soong Android we've seen, except maybe Julianna, whose construction came after his. They are the only ones we know of with blocks & limits placed on their programming. Hers are mostly to maintain the illusion (Even to herself) of being human. Data's blocks are more fundamental... developmental in nature. Soong wanted certain things to be time/growth based unlockable achievements... Dreaming... emotions... etc...

When Data transferred his programming to Lal, it's possible that his own programming botched up the process, because ultimately his positronic matrix IS capable of emotions/dreaming/contractions, just like Lore's, but those things are somehow restricted in him. That he in some way cloned his own programming to make her, made her incomplete. That's why the cascade failure revolved around her feeling emotions. Soong androids are SUPPOSED to feel emotions. Only Data is not, because Soong wanted it that way. When she started doing things Data couldn't, like use contractions, that was a symptom

The sad truth is that Data is somewhat in the dark about himself, his nature & his potential. It's pretty dangerous for him to being trying to create more like him, until he knows literally everything about himself, & all of Soong's work. IMHO, he needs to study Lore, after Decent, & he needs to come clean to Julianna about what she is, as hard a truth as that will be for her to hear. She was essentially THERE while all this went on. She may know so much more that he needs to learn in order to propagate this new species. The future of a new race depends upon it, & it's fair to think such a potential is more important than the personal wishes of either individual

 

[Marynator]

I may have to watch the episode again, but I had thought Dr Soong told Data that if his mother learned she was an android she was programmed to shut down. If that is the case then I feel there can be no question that the truth must be held from her.

I feel that Data should be trying to create offspring, he can never know when his knowledge is perfect! He can only try and learn from his mistakes as his father did. Sometimes people are like that too, thinking the time is never right to have their children, but sometimes we just have to take that leap and try?

I know virtually nothing about robotics lol. My thoughts are purely from a literary perspective, and I feel that Data failed because he was trying to recreate himself and was not fully prepared for a daughter who would exceed his capabilities.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

@Mojochi : I have that theory about Data's emotions too - that his positronic matrix does proceed emotional data, but that the appropriate device (the emotion chip) is needed for an extensive experience of emotions. There are sooooo many evidences through the series.

I'd have thought that Lal's ability to feel emotions without a device may come from spontaneous auto-learning, like what we would call a mutation in biological beings.

 

[Mojochi]

I may have to watch the episode again, but I had thought Dr Soong told Data that if his mother learned she was an android she was programmed to shut down. If that is the case then I feel there can be no question that the truth must be held from her.

It's true that Soong told Data that in the hologram program they found

She doesn't have to know. I designed her to shut down in the event the truth was discovered. When you re-insert the chip, she'll wake up and remember nothing. All you have to do is make up some excuse about what happened to her

If you examine his wording, he says she doesn't have to know, not that she can't know. He's designed her to "Shut down" if she's revealed. That just means inert, kind of like Data's off switch. I assume all she needs is some memory adjustment, when she's awakened. There's probably no reason why Data couldn't correct the mechanism to avoid further shutting down. Soong mentions later that she's designed to self-terminate after a normal length of human lifetime, which means she'll go permanently offline within a few decades. Frankly, it would be irresponsible to not at least try. She is a wealth of knowledge, & one of only two (Eventually 3) known examples of Soong's work in existence

I feel that Data should be trying to create offspring, he can never know when his knowledge is perfect!

I never said perfect. I only mean he shouldn't be experimenting, unless he has all the data on Soong's research, or at the very least, knows the specifics of his own nature... & since he's still discovering new things about himself some 3 years later, he clearly doesn't know himself well enough to transfer his own design to another matrix, & assume it will succeed. It's pretty poor scientific process to tamper with living sentient beings, when there are blanks in the design perameters

 

[Mojochi]

Here's a thought I don't think was ever mentioned, but is worth considering. Is Data's skin warm to the touch? I figure it probably is. However it's got to be different from humans. Look how differently it appears during Geordi's VISOR feed in Heart of Glory

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Doesn't he say in an episode that his skin is warm ? I remember something like that, but maybe it's my imagination ?
I wouldn't imagine it any other way, especially as I think it could be used for processors cooling purpose.
It's obviously different from humans' in its structure and material, which would explain why it looks different when observed throught Geordi's VISOR. No blood vessels, no cells, no glands (although he has skin pores)...maybe not even carbon based ? We know his skin consists in several sheets of bioplast, but we don't know what bioplast is made of, do we ?

Since we're talking human-like features...Data moves his lips and tongue when talking, but is it just apparel or does it serve a purpose ? Doesn't he have a voice box instead of vocal cords ? Do the sounds come from a box but still need articulation (in that case the box would just replace vocal cords) ?

 

[Mojochi]

There does seem to be phonetic mechanics taking place. After all, why else would he be unable to form contractions, or at the very least have trouble with it? So I'd presume he is generating sound, & manipulating it through an oral cavity much like we do

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

So...since he doesn't exactly breath (his breath is part of his cooling system) and doesn't have lungs, I guess the sound comes out of the voice box but still needs articulation ? Speakers would have been more convenient, but Noonien probably wanted something more human-like, hence the orally articulated sounds.

 

[ALF]

Having watched The Offspring a ridiculous number of times, I think Lal's system failure was brought on by the tumult of the too-eager admiral who showed up almost instantly to relieve Data of his fatherly duties. Until that, she was running fine... she was making out with Riker and everything.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

@ALF : I don't agree it was the reason for her cascade failure, but I think it may have sped up the failure spreading indeed.
If Lal's processing of emotions basically came from Data but she lacked the proper blocks or pathways to correctly process the outputs, like Mojochi said, then the cascade failure came from an improper gestion of emotional data. In that case, we can make the educated guess that being in a highly stressful situation, like the one Haftel put her and Data into, may have added so much emotional inputs that it caused even more internal errors and sped up the cascade failure.

 

[ALF]

@ALF : I don't agree it was the reason for her cascade failure, but I think it may have sped up the failure spreading indeed.
If Lal's processing of emotions basically came from Data but she lacked the proper blocks or pathways to correctly process the outputs, like Mojochi said, then the cascade failure came from an improper gestion of emotional data. In that case, we can make the educated guess that being in a highly stressful situation, like the one Haftel put her and Data into, may have added so much emotional inputs that it caused even more internal errors and sped up the cascade failure.

Right. I hear you, I just do not see any evidence of that in the story. My position is that if Haftel would have left well enough alone, Lal would have survived.

In act 2 Lal asks Data what her purpose is, etc. She starts asking too many questions and Data shuts her off for the night.
Later in act 2, Lal notices the other students are scared of her at school. She tells Data, "I do not want to be different."
In act 3, the last scene is of Lal (after kissing Riker) asking Data about love. Data tells her it is a limitation as non-humans they must both accept, and that the effort to feel love is more valuable than the goal. Lal holds Data's hand.
In act 4, Haftel sees Lal as a bartender, gets angry with Data and Picard and decides to meet Lal - for the first time - in the observation room where he tells Lal that she will leave with him. "We just want to broaden your experience. There is only so much you can learn on a starship." They argue, Lal accuses the Admiral of not speaking to her or Data with respect, she then later runs into Troi who can sense her fear at being separated from The Enterprise and Data.

Each moment yields progression of Lal's journey but I don't think there's anything wrong with Lal technically until she meets with the admiral in act 4. She never really panics, malfunctions or reacts with too much stress until then. No ED-209 moments of gory deaths, either. She has moments of confusion and doubt, and at one point she shouts when she sees the couple kissing in Ten Forward, "he's biting that female!"

"Hello Data."
"Guinan."
"Lal, how are you?"
"I am functioning within normal... I'm fine, thank you."
"Good."
- Guinan speaking to Data and Lal as they walk in Ten Forward

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

@ALF : As you said, she experienced doubt, confusion and even surprise, on what seems to be a much higher degree when compared to Data. So I always understood that she began processing emotions very early, and that stress was the catalyzer for her dysfunction rather than the cause. This is open to interpretation of course, so that'd be interesting to see what others think of it.

 

[Timo]

Data's "blocks" are largely self-imposed and under his conscious control. He doesn't "have trouble with contractions" - he chooses not to use them, just like he chooses to babble, to use big words, and to tilt his head. Except when he chooses differently, in which case he can perfectly mimic Picard's voice and patterns of speech, emote like a movie star, or stammer and pretend to be his retard bother.

His extreme skill with mimicry and improvised playacting calls to question whether he's "genuine" or "fake" at a fundamental level. The evident fact that he does have emotions when convenient (and sometimes when inconvenient) is secondary to that issue: are those "real" or "fake" ones? And is there really a difference?

His skin supposedly doesn't feel too alien, as he can shake (bare) hands with Jack London without much comment...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Data's "blocks" are largely self-imposed and under his conscious control. He doesn't "have trouble with contractions" - he chooses not to use them, just like he chooses to babble, to use big words, and to tilt his head. Except when he chooses differently

How can you say it's a choice & not design? There's no evidence either way, other than his own claim that he believes he is incapable of contractions & emotions. I take him at his word. He genuinely believes he can't do those things, & enough examples of it occur for both him & everyone he knows to accept it, even though we know he can, & other Soong androids do them as a standard.

Clearly, he's been deprived of function, as we're shown with his dreaming function. It's not much of a leap to think that the guy who buried a dreaming program in him, to be unlocked over a growth period, might also do the same thing with limiting emotional & language function, imho

She never really panics, malfunctions or reacts with too much stress until then.

She never really has any reason to. In fact, Haftel literally proves his approach is entirely wrong. He almost instantly proves the best way to raise this youngling is with an experienced kin, since it seemed to have been working, in otherwise uncharted territory, & all went to crap the minute he interfered.

I agree that the admiral's interference had direct catastrophic effects on Lal, but I also think it's possible to see this both ways. The admiral could 've been the catalyst without actually being the cause or flaw. So maybe the faulty matrix Data installed was only faulty in so much as it was a sensitive one, prone to failure when disrupted too greatly, & in this case was related to emotional awareness (Which he only has minimal amounts of himself)

She might've crashed because she was having something happen to her, that the matrix she was cloned from (Data's) doesn't have happen, & it's possible there was something delicate or undeveloped, if not completely faulty, that the admiral's influence exacerbated.

While I agree it's certainly possible that she'd have not crashed if the admiral hadn't come aboard. Something else just as emotionally traumatic COULD have happened. That's life. Stuff like that happens all the time, & either Data created a matrix that couldn't process it... or couldn't process it yet, at this early stage of development, & being that no one was expecting her to be processing it at all, the same outcome was very likely. What if Data died in the line of duty (like he actually did)?

If all it took was an admiral suggesting she be relocated to overwhelm her, any number of other similar catalysts could've done the same thing

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Here's an interesting thing I just thought of...
Data: A Klingon Male (In reference to Lal's potential body choices)
Troi: A friend for Worf.

Are you kidding me, lady? Has Troi ever met a Klingon? What would ever make her think a Soong android masquerading as a Klingon would ever fit in with real Klingons? They're not even all that tolerant of half bred Klingons, or ones living outside the empire, like Worf, & while I doubt any of them could kill Lal, it would clearly be a terrible choice for socialization. That would NOT be a friend for Worf, as if that's even a good reason to choose it anyhow.

Everyone in that room should've been like... "A bloody Klingon? NOOOOOOO!"

 

[Marynator]

Just as a friendly request, would it be alright if we kindly did not use the "R-word", especially in a manner meant to be disparaging? Thank you so very much.

I feel that Mojochi is very right about Lal, that it could have been any major emotional thing that sent her into malfunction. What if like Data died? "The Most Toys" was only a few episodes after "The Offspring", so that could have been like really traumatic for her. Or it could have happened too if like it just built up with too many over a period of time and she could not handle any more stimulation. I do not feel that Admiral Haftel directly caused it so much more as he exposed earlier something that could happen anyway.

I disagree with you Mojochi about the last part. I do not know if you have ever been part of a minority group? It is amazing how much of an impact it can make when you have someone to relate to. Most of my colleagues at work are men, and like all the time when I'm in a working meeting it's all men on the call, and I can tell you it is so much more relaxing if there is even just one other woman present. Worf is the only Klingon on his whole ship, even in the whole Starfleet! so it would probably be very nice for him just to see another person like him walking around.

 

[Timo]

How can you say it's a choice & not design? There's no evidence either way, other than his own claim that he believes he is incapable of contractions & emotions.

Actually, it is vice versa: we hear him time and again use contractions and informal language, whereas he never claims he would be unable to do so.

How could it be design? Data has a mouth-analogue capable of producing all kinds of sounds, not limited to is own speaking voice. It is not physically impossible for him to... well, do anything, really. We haven't seen him fly yet, but we have seen him float when he once was said to have sunk and walked at the bottom, so I would hate to rule anything out.

He genuinely believes he can't do those things

He never indicates he would not notice himself doing these things, due to some sort of android hypnosis or whatnot. I doubt he would opt to believe in the demonstrably false.

Clearly, he's been deprived of function, as we're shown with his dreaming function. It's not much of a leap to think that the guy who buried a dreaming program in him, to be unlocked over a growth period, might also do the same thing with limiting emotional & language function, imho

Agreed. But the block there is a soft one, and Data knows his way around it. He just thinks he is better off following Soong's limitations and desires than contradicting those - except when he opposite is true, and there he exhibits conscious choice. I mean, what would make us think it should be unconscious? Data doesn't go all dreamy-eyed when violating his blocks or anything.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Actually, it is vice versa: we hear him time and again use contractions and informal language, whereas he never claims he would be unable to do so..

No, he actually says his programming has never mastered contractions in Lal's specific episode, & they refer to Lal's doing it as an aberration, (Or Haftel does anyway. I think he's jumping a bit on that term myself). I think he's mentioned it other times too, IIRC, that he can't use contractions, or form them, or what have you. It was a major plot point in Datalore too wasn't it

Just as a friendly request, would it be alright if we kindly did not use the "R-word", especially in a manner meant to be disparaging? Thank you so very much.

I disagree with you Mojochi about the last part. I do not know if you have ever been part of a minority group? It is amazing how much of an impact it can make when you have someone to relate to. Most of my colleagues at work are men, and like all the time when I'm in a working meeting it's all men on the call, and I can tell you it is so much more relaxing if there is even just one other woman present. Worf is the only Klingon on his whole ship, even in the whole Starfleet! so it would probably be very nice for him just to see another person like him walking around.

R-word? I apologize, but legitimately don't know what word you mean? Do you mean the word real? If that's it, Data himself has used the term. I honestly don't know too many other terms to indicate the opposite of his artificial nature... Authentic? No offense, but what's the difference?

Well, I guess this will be a touchy issue to get into, but since we're there, we're talking about Worf here, the guy who let a Romulan die because he wouldn't help a Romulan. I don't think it's much of a stretch to think he'd never look on Lal as a Klingon, just because she, or he, if that had been the choice, happened to look like a Klingon. He would certainly consider Lal an imposter, even if he did at some point accept them in the way humans accept Data aspiring to be human. Personally, I'd never find comfort in someone who was artificially assuming my form in an attempt to be like me. I might get use to it, or be accepting of it eventually, but I'd never really find the kind of kinship in someone looking like me, that you might think, because honestly, I don't think I should. Finding comfort in being around "Your own kind" can be a pretty dark road to be on, imho

This subject kind of reminds of Rachel Dolezal, in that if someone who were African-American were working in an environment that predominantly wasn't, & Rachel Dolezal came to work there, but it was common knowledge that she wasn't, & was only mimicking being such, I doubt they'd find comfort in her presense, quite the opposite. It might even cause insult, if it appeared deliberate or preventable. I'll leave the whole subject at that, & shut up about it

 

[Marynator]

R-word? I apologize, but legitimately don't know what word you mean?

I am so sorry, it was not you, it was someone else using the word "retard" to put down Data's brother. I feel a lot of people still don't realize how hurtful this word is, I am sure it was not intentional, so I was just giving a friendly reminder.

Worf was willing to donate to the Romulan in "The Enemy"! But that Romulan commander would not accept and chose to die. Worf struggled with it and Captain Picard would never have forced him (bodily autonomy, people!), but I really feel that Worf was going to be willing to do it when he came to sickbay and confronted his enemy, at least that was my interpretation of it. I do not feel bad at all that they showed Worf's struggle, it was so important for his character's story.

I most certainly can't speak for Worf, but I do feel that it could have meant something to him just to see a Klingon, and I am sure if Lal chose that identity she would have wanted to explore her chosen culture. I feel that Data would have been woke enough to consult with Worf and other representatives of potential choices for Lal before even making them available.

 

[Timo]

I am so sorry, it was not you, it was someone else using the word "retard" to put down Data's brother. I feel a lot of people still don't realize how hurtful this word is, I am sure it was not intentional, so I was just giving a friendly reminder.

Oh, right, that was me. Sorry for offending you, but the insult was intentional - it just wasn't intended to be malicious.

That is, Data was playing a retard, to the hilt. He wanted not only to be taken for his brother, but to be regarded as so disgustingly beneath a "real person" that Shinzon would immediately turn away, rather than have a second look at the android and perhaps spot the subterfuge.

That the impression of a retard could be created simply by acting like B4 naturally does is a separate matter. Perhaps B4 would not like to be called by the R-word? But a lot of people like to be called worthless (that is, invalid), instead of a number of more traditional and descriptive terms of their possible physical or mental shortcoming (or even plain neutral difference). Go figure.

Worf struggled with it and Captain Picard would never have forced him (bodily autonomy, people!)

...But where was that when Picard refused to let the Romulan die?

We get an episode where abortion is not a moral issue (that is, the society has no say) but a personal one (that is, the mother decides). In euthanasia-themed episodes, there is more ambiguity. But the "let Worf die" faction is missing from "Ethics", say. Seems there is still a bit of societal control over bodies - the usual arbitrariness or utilitarianism just reigns over which bodies get controlled and how.

Timo Saloniemi