Son'a Solidarity post ST: Insurrection

[elaithin]

Right, but what the Federation brought to the whole thing was 1) a cloaked ship no one but Dougherty and the Son'a knew about and 2)Presumably, a place they were going to bring the Ba'ku to.

So why involve any of the observation teams or any other Starfleet personnel at all? Plotwise, I understand that they were the Enterprise's window into the story. But for Dougherty, it was just stupid.

 

[JD]

Yeah, but he was an admiral, and I think a member of Starfleet Command, so he would need some reason to disappear. Doing the observation mission allowed him to go to the Ba'ku with having to worry about trying to cover his tracks.

Did anything ever say if the observation mission was going on before Dougherty got involved, or if was he the one who started it as his cover?

 

[Christopher]

Right, but what the Federation brought to the whole thing was 1) a cloaked ship no one but Dougherty and the Son'a knew about and 2)Presumably, a place they were going to bring the Ba'ku to.

So why involve any of the observation teams or any other Starfleet personnel at all? Plotwise, I understand that they were the Enterprise's window into the story. But for Dougherty, it was just stupid.

As I said, Dougherty needed a cover. People would notice the movements of starships, personnel, and resources to a planet that was believed to be pre-warp. The only valid excuse for sending Starfleet assets to a pre-warp planet is a covert anthropological observation mission. Hence, he pretended that was what he was doing.

 

[Herbert1]

As I said, Dougherty needed a cover. People would notice the movements of starships, personnel, and resources to a planet that was believed to be pre-warp. The only valid excuse for sending Starfleet assets to a pre-warp planet is a covert anthropological observation mission. Hence, he pretended that was what he was doing.

Since we already saw the "duck blind" used for covert anthropological observation to study the Mintakans in "Who Watches the Watchers?", Piller and Berman probably presumed that is what audiences would think was going on at the beginning of the film. Data may have just been assisting in the anthopological research when he uncovered the cloaked holoship and discovered the "true" mission on Ba'ku. It could be that this anthropological research was applied to the holosimulation on the holoship and the re-created Ba'ku village to which they would be relocated on another planet. So it wasn't only a cover, they would need to know this information to successfully relocate the Ba'ku.

I don't buy that Matthew Dougherty was a rogue Starfleet officer and he and the So'na were the only ones who knew about the holoship and the forced relocation. Starfleet Command and the Federation Council probably knew what was going on. The holoship and the anthropoligical research wasn't entirely for the benefit of the Ba'ku, it was also an attempt to make the relocation more morally palatable to the Federation.

 

[elaithin]

Which just shows how stupid a plan it was all around, to my way of thinking.

 

[Herbert1]

^Let's just say I agree to disagree with you on that point. The film would have made an excellent two-part episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation. I think fans had unfair expectations since the film came after Star Trek: First Contact.

 

[JD]

Yeah, I'm with Herbert here. I've always felt the movie was alot better than most fans seem to think.
As for Starfleet Command and the Federation Coucil knowing, I think they probably knew about the planet and the Ba'ku, but didn't realize exactly what the it was going to cost the Ba'ku. From Trekcore's script:

PICARD (CONT'D)
Go back and put a face on what's
happening here. Make the Council
see the Ba'ku. It's too easy to
turn a blind eye to the suffering
of an unfamiliar people.

So that sounds to me like the Council at least knew the Ba'ku existed.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I don't buy that Matthew Dougherty was a rogue Starfleet officer and he and the So'na were the only ones who knew about the holoship and the forced relocation.

The DS9 novel Section 31: Abyss inferred that the Briar Patch debacle was at least partly an operation run by Section 31 and a rogue Starfleet Admiral. So as far as the lit is concerned, that is exactly the way it went down.

 

[Sci]

Abyss has Elias Vaughn musing in his internal monologue that the Ba'ku operation was a Section 31 operation that Dougherty had been in on. I'd infer from this that Dougherty was a Section 31 agent and that he was lying to Picard when he claimed the Federation Council knew about the operation.

 

[elaithin]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I find the movie very entertaining, and also think of it as a very good two-hour episode, though not quite up to the standards of being a major motion picture. I think it gets a lot more of a bum rap than it deserves.

I just think the good Admiral's plan was really, really stupid.

 

[JoeP]

I only cringe at the Picard salsa dance, and the kid & Data at the end. Otherwise, I don't find it all that bad...

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, I'm with Herbert here. I've always felt the movie was alot better than most fans seem to think.
As for Starfleet Command and the Federation Coucil knowing, I think they probably knew about the planet and the Ba'ku, but didn't realize exactly what the it was going to cost the Ba'ku. From Trekcore's script:

PICARD (CONT'D)
Go back and put a face on what's
happening here. Make the Council
see the Ba'ku. It's too easy to
turn a blind eye to the suffering
of an unfamiliar people.

So that sounds to me like the Council at least knew the Ba'ku existed.

There's another scene in Picard's ready room where Dougherty said the Federation Council knew what was going on. I'll have to see if I can find it.

 

[BillJ]

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie9.html

PICARD: I won't let you move them, Admiral. I will take this to the Federation Council.
DOUGHERTY: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.

Fixed spelling mistake.

 

[Herbert1]

I don't buy that Matthew Dougherty was a rogue Starfleet officer and he and the So'na were the only ones who knew about the holoship and the forced relocation.

The DS9 novel Section 31: Abyss inferred that the Briar Patch debacle was at least partly an operation run by Section 31 and a rogue Starfleet Admiral. So as far as the lit is concerned, that is exactly the way it went down.

Yeah, Mangels and Martin found it necessary to retcon it as a Section 31 operation. I guess the Federation Council can never engage in behavior that is morally questionable. Piller & Berman could have easily added Section 31 if they wanted to do so. I don't agree that Dougherty is lying in the scene. If it was a rogue Starfleet operation, then Picard's defiance wouldn't be much of an insurrection.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Yeah, Mangels and Martin found it necessary to retcon it as a Section 31 operation.

Actually it was David Weddle and Jeffrey Lang.

 

[Sci]

I don't buy that Matthew Dougherty was a rogue Starfleet officer and he and the So'na were the only ones who knew about the holoship and the forced relocation.

The DS9 novel Section 31: Abyss inferred that the Briar Patch debacle was at least partly an operation run by Section 31 and a rogue Starfleet Admiral. So as far as the lit is concerned, that is exactly the way it went down.

Yeah, Mangels and Martin found it necessary to retcon it as a Section 31 operation.

Mangels and Martin had nothing to do with it. Their first DS9 Relaunch story wasn't until Mission: Gamma - Cathedral, five books later. Jeffrey Lang and David Weddle -- himself a former staff writer for DS9 the TV series -- wrote that novel, and responsibility for that decision falls to them and to then-series editor Marco Palmieri.

I guess the Federation Council can never engage in behavior that is morally questionable. Piller & Berman could have easily added Section 31 if they wanted to do so. I don't agree that Dougherty is lying in the scene. If it was a rogue Starfleet operation, then Picard's defiance wouldn't be much of an insurrection.

Picard's defiance in INS was never all that much of an insurrection, because he was the one who was actually enforcing Federation law against a criminal (Dougherty).

 

[BillJ]

The DS9 novel Section 31: Abyss inferred that the Briar Patch debacle was at least partly an operation run by Section 31 and a rogue Starfleet Admiral. So as far as the lit is concerned, that is exactly the way it went down.

Yeah, Mangels and Martin found it necessary to retcon it as a Section 31 operation.

Mangels and Martin had nothing to do with it. Their first DS9 Relaunch story wasn't until Mission: Gamma - Cathedral, five books later. Jeffrey Lang and David Weddle -- himself a former staff writer for DS9 the TV series -- wrote that novel, and responsibility for that decision falls to them and to then-series editor Marco Palmieri.

I guess the Federation Council can never engage in behavior that is morally questionable. Piller & Berman could have easily added Section 31 if they wanted to do so. I don't agree that Dougherty is lying in the scene. If it was a rogue Starfleet operation, then Picard's defiance wouldn't be much of an insurrection.

Picard's defiance in INS was never all that much of an insurrection, because he was the one who was actually enforcing Federation law against a criminal (Dougherty).

What Federation law was he enforcing exactly? There is absolutely no evidence in the film that Dougherty was in violation of Federation law in any way in the relocation of the Ba'ku.

 

[elaithin]

Umn, Federation culture is pretty heavy on the concept of self-determination. Forcibly relocating the Ba'ku flies in the face of that, especially if the planet is, apparently, in Federation space and a Federation protectorate. So yeah - that'd be illegal. Picard says as much to Dougherty.

 

[Dayton Ward]

It's worth noting that the Ba'ku settled on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, so the notion that the Briar Patch is "in Federation territory" seems dubious. They just claimed it, without verifying the existence of sentient inhabitants? Whoops.

 

[BillJ]

Umn, Federation culture is pretty heavy on the concept of self-determination. Forcibly relocating the Ba'ku flies in the face of that, especially if the planet is, apparently, in Federation space and a Federation protectorate. So yeah - that'd be illegal. Picard says as much to Dougherty.

The Federation Council approved the mission. So either 'eminent domain' was already on the books or they passed a special resolution in regards to the Ba'ku. Which as the elected governing body is their right.

It's worth noting that the Ba'ku settled on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, so the notion that the Briar Patch is "in Federation territory" seems dubious. They just claimed it, without verifying the existence of sentient inhabitants? Whoops.

Just because the Federation was founded after the Ba'ku landed on the planet doesn't mean that the Briar Patch didn't fall under the jurisdiction of a current Federation member well before the Ba'ku showed up.