Something about Redemption Part II

[USS Ername]

How could Picard know about the "Yesterday's Enterprise incident"?

It's supposed that happened in a alternate universe, and the NCC D only saw the NCC C one second in "our" universe. Moreover, Guinan decided keep the incident as a secret (well, I understood that).

 

[Finn]

He didn't know about it. Sela told him about Tasha Yar. Guinan confirmed it in one of her enigmatic conversations with Picard in that episode.

 

[Anwar]

In the corrected timeline, it's entirely possible that the Klingons told the Feds that their fellow Fleeters heroically sacrificed themselves to save Narendra III.

 

[Lance]

In the corrected timeline, it's entirely possible that the Klingons told the Feds that their fellow Fleeters heroically sacrificed themselves to save Narendra III.

Indeed. Data even theorizes to that effect in "Yesterday's Enterprise":

RIKER: With all due respect, sir, you'd be asking one hundred and twenty five people to die a meaningless death!

DATA: Not necessarily meaningless, Commander. The Klingons regard honour above all else. If the crew of the Enterprise-C had died fighting for the survival of a Klingon outpost, it would be considered a meaningful act of honour by the Klingon Empire.

Admittedly not proof that's what actually happened, but its certainly good enough for me. I can certainly imagine the Klingons putting the "They fought with honor!" spin on things, which is what ensures peace.

Of course, nobody seemingly knew about Tasha being kidnapped by Romulans. So maybe it wasn't as simple as that... maybe the Romulans did land a striking blow of sorts. Something the Klingons weren't aware of.

 

[Hober Mallow]

He didn't know about it. Sela told him about Tasha Yar. Guinan confirmed it in one of her enigmatic conversations with Picard in that episode.

And Picard found both Sela and Guinan's claim's dubious.

 

[PhoenixClass]

Starfleet no doubt knows what happened to the Enterrpise-C, it just would not know about the temporal detour (except for Guinan, Sela and Tasha).

 

[Robert Comsol]

I examined the context of aforementioned events as part of my Enterprise-C thread.

PICARD: Enterprise C? She was lost at the battle of Narendra III, defending a Klingon outpost from the Romulans.
GUINAN: And the survivors?
PICARD: There were stories of prisoners taken back to Romulus, but these were only rumors.
("Redemption, II")

I think it stands to reason that there had been Klingon survivors from Narendra III (possibly the re-appearance of the Enterprise-C bought one or some enough time to evacuate) to live and to tell the story.

The rumors were probably spread by merchantmen that smuggled Romulan Ale out of the Neutral Zone (and possibly Tasha tried to escape on one of these vessels with Sela).

There had been no communication whatsoever between the Federation and the Romulans since the Tomed Incident, 30 years before and 19 years after Narendra III.

Other than that I have absolutely no doubt that the Klingon outpost on Narendra III was destroyed either way and in both timelines / universes.

"Battle-weary" Picard in "Yesterday's Enterprise" only speculated when he said "The Narendra Three outpost was destroyed. It is regrettable that you did not succeed. A Federation starship rescuing a Klingon outpost might have averted twenty years of war."

The Enterprise-C had suffered critical damage and apparently had not taken out one of the four Romulan warbirds, yet. The "last ship standing" must have been at least one of these warbirds (in order to take Tasha and the other survivors as prisoners to Romulus) and I'm sure the Romulans finished what they had begun (trying to frame the Federation for the assault, why else should the Klingons have turned onto the Federation and not the Romulans?)

I think the "universe at war" Riker, unlike Picard, understood the situation much better: "That won't accomplish anything, sir. There's no way they can save Narendra III."

Bob

 

[Nebusj]

The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.

 

[Dukhat]

The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.

True. I always wondered why they didn't just shoot the Sutherland scenes on the Enterprise-D bridge, considering the two ships have the same outward bridge dome. All they would have had to do was recess the lighting to show that it was a different bridge.

 

[Armored Saint]

The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.

Bah, the Excelsior didn't have individual cabin for each crewmembers, so it's not so shocking to have hobbit-bridges in the 24th century.

 

[PhoenixClass]

I examined the context of aforementioned events as part of my Enterprise-C thread.

PICARD: Enterprise C? She was lost at the battle of Narendra III, defending a Klingon outpost from the Romulans.
GUINAN: And the survivors?
PICARD: There were stories of prisoners taken back to Romulus, but these were only rumors.
("Redemption, II")

I think it stands to reason that there had been Klingon survivors from Narendra III (possibly the re-appearance of the Enterprise-C bought one or some enough time to evacuate) to live and to tell the story.

The rumors were probably spread by merchantmen that smuggled Romulan Ale out of the Neutral Zone (and possibly Tasha tried to escape on one of these vessels with Sela).

There had been no communication whatsoever between the Federation and the Romulans since the Tomed Incident, 30 years before and 19 years after Narendra III.

Other than that I have absolutely no doubt that the Klingon outpost on Narendra III was destroyed either way and in both timelines / universes.

"Battle-weary" Picard in "Yesterday's Enterprise" only speculated when he said "The Narendra Three outpost was destroyed. It is regrettable that you did not succeed. A Federation starship rescuing a Klingon outpost might have averted twenty years of war."

The Enterprise-C had suffered critical damage and apparently had not taken out one of the four Romulan warbirds, yet. The "last ship standing" must have been at least one of these warbirds (in order to take Tasha and the other survivors as prisoners to Romulus) and I'm sure the Romulans finished what they had begun (trying to frame the Federation for the assault, why else should the Klingons have turned onto the Federation and not the Romulans?)

I think the "universe at war" Riker, unlike Picard, understood the situation much better: "That won't accomplish anything, sir. There's no way they can save Narendra III."

Bob

But it did accomplish something, whether the Enterprise succeeded in saving the outpost or not. To the Klingons, it would not matter if the Enterprise won or not. What mattered was that the ship fought in a glorious battle on their behalf. It was the act, not the outcome, that was important and that won favor with the Klingons.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Wasn't the Sutherland undergoing repairs or somesuch when it was pulled into service? Maybe they were running the ship from auxiliary control.

 

[Kevman7987]

The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.

Wasn't the Sutherland undergoing repairs or somesuch when it was pulled into service? Maybe they were running the ship from auxiliary control.

How unfortunate for Data, they shove him into the supply closet sized auxiliary control with that jerk officer.

 

[Anwar]

The Enterprise-C had suffered critical damage and apparently had not taken out one of the four Romulan warbirds, yet. The "last ship standing" must have been at least one of these warbirds (in order to take Tasha and the other survivors as prisoners to Romulus) and I'm sure the Romulans finished what they had begun (trying to frame the Federation for the assault, why else should the Klingons have turned onto the Federation and not the Romulans?)

I don't think it was the Ent-C's failure to save Narendra III that caused the War, it was just that things in general were bad between the Klingons and the Feds that led to war anyways. But then Narendra III happened which mollified most of the Klingons and led to an easier diplomatic thing between them.

 

[Robert Comsol]

But it did accomplish something, whether the Enterprise succeeded in saving the outpost or not. To the Klingons, it would not matter if the Enterprise won or not. What mattered was that the ship fought in a glorious battle on their behalf. It was the act, not the outcome, that was important and that won favor with the Klingons.

Exactly, but one or some Klingons needed to survive to tell the story.

And that's what was missing in the alternate reality (i.e. no Klingon survivors and therefore an opportunity for the Romulans - possibly together with the Duras family - to frame the Federation for it):

GARRETT [OC]: This is Captain Garrett of the Starship Enterprise, to any Federation ship. We have been attacked by Romulan warships and require immediate assistance. We've lost warp drive. Life support is failing.
RIKER: There's no record of the Romulans ever assaulting the Enterprise C.

Bob

P.S. Wow, I think I just got promoted to Commodore. Nice!

 

[Anwar]

Again, you're assuming it was the Ent-C's failure that directly caused the war. I don't think it did, things were just bad in general at the time.

It was their sacrifice that averted the war though.

 

[Robert Comsol]

In the parallel time line / "universe at war" the disappearance of the Enterprise-C was apparently a contributing factor to the Klingon-Federation war.

The logical conclusion is either that her reappearance (from the future) distracted the Romulan warbirds long enough to enable the escape of one or some Klingons to be able to tell that a Federation starship defended their outpost or that the Enterprise-C made the Romulan warbirds somehow stop their attack on the outpost so there could be survivors to tell the story (the latter could be a possibility I'm examining in a few minutes in the parallel Enterprise-C thread).

Bob

 

[Anwar]

The Ent-C's disappearance didn't do anything to cause the war, odds are the war was already going to happen.

What stopped the war was their sacrifice.

Most likely there were survivors of Narendra III in both timelines, it's just that in the War timeline the Ent-C disappeared in the fight so the Klingons would've seen it as them running away. Which in itself wouldn't have caused war, but added to the general bad situation at the time. So the Klingons never bothered telling the Feds that the Ent-C disappeared in the fight.

 

[blueziggy]

i think you need to look at this a little more in depth...

in the YE timeline, the Ent-C disappeared. There was no wreckage, no "survivors", no trace that the Ent-C was even there. There could have been transmissions that said a federation ship was trying to help, but then "left". that would be cowardly to the Klingons and the Romulans wouldnt say anything because they get to keep the status quo.

in the real timeline, the Ent-C is destroyed. Obvious wreckage, prisoners, and survivors to tell the story. lot easier to see how peace can come from that.

 

[gaghyogi49]

The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.

Haha, pretty close. The set was actually a redress of the USS Enterprise-A galley from "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country", which was similarly cramped for a ship that size . ;-)