Someone posted this idea about the Prime Universe

[The rapture]

This topic has been done to death. Personally I don't agree that there is a Prime Universe and that they have basically thrown TOS,TNG,DS9 and VOY out the window.

But I just read on another site the following point about this whole concept.

When Spock does the mindmeld with Kirk he says "129 years from now". Not an alternate reality. Not a parallel universe. Scotty looks at Spock and says "you are from the future". Spock makes the point on the bridge about the past being altered. There is no mention of a parallel universe.

Despite anything that is said by the writers, and fans. There is nothing in the film to make the notion of a parallel universe. They use the concept of time travel and all that has happened is now gone. So again no prime universe.

 

[M'Sharak]

This topic has been done to death. Personally I don't agree that there is a Prime Universe and that they have basically thrown TOS,TNG,DS9 and VOY out the window.

But I just read on another site the following point about this whole concept.

When Spock does the mindmeld with Kirk he says "129 years from now". Not an alternate reality. Not a parallel universe. Scotty looks at Spock and says "you are from the future". Spock makes the point on the bridge about the past being altered. There is no mention of a parallel universe.

Despite anything that is said by the writers, and fans. There is nothing in the film to make the notion of a parallel universe. They use the concept of time travel and all that has happened is now gone. So again no prime universe.

(emphasis mine)

The term "alternate reality" appears in dialogue in the very scene you mention ("Spock makes the point on the bridge about the past being altered") and Spock acknowledges it.

Spock: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. The contrary - Nero's very presence - has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
Uhura: An alternate reality.
Spock: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been if the time continuum was disrupted - our destinies have changed.

This illustrates the fact that Nero is not in the same timeline as the one he occupied before exiting the 24th century via black/white/wormhole to the 22nd century, where his arrival creates a branching point. Because of that branching, he will not be able to count on history playing out in the same way as it had in the Prime timeline with which he is familiar. That's a parallel universe, whether you choose to accept it or don't, it doesn't "throw TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY out the window" and it is explained in the movie.

Besides, you've pretty much done this thread already, haven't you? I don't know if you remember how that turned out, but I do, and I don't think we need to go that way again.

 

[The rapture]

As I recall I did post something similar a while back that is why I did say "mention this again".

From the results of the last time, I remember how it went, I never heard anything that justified a parallel universe. They kept saying timetravel not parallel universe. You forgot to address the mindmeld information of Spock saying "from the future not another universe".

Just another facet on the loose holes in STXI...no big deal.

 

[M'Sharak]

As I recall I did post something similar a while back that is why I did say "mention this again".

From the results of the last time, I remember how it went, I never heard anything that justified a parallel universe.

I think the sound of you repeatedly telling those who did not agree with your assessment that they must have slept through the movie or that they had failed to refute your argument or that "Dude your a total troll" may have drowned out the sound of rational answers being given in the previous thread so that you were unable to hear them. I don't want to see that happen again.

They kept saying timetravel not parallel universe. You forgot to address the mindmeld information of Spock saying "from the future not another universe".

There was both time travel and a parallel universe involved, and Old Spock was from the future, just not the future of the timeline in which the events of the movie take place.

Just another facet on the loose holes in STXI...

That doesn't even make any sense, so I have no answer for it.

...no big deal.

If you say so. Why are we here, again?

 

[Red Ranger]

Frankly, it depends on how you define parallel universe and time travel. For the purposes of this "explanation," I'll use the terms parallel universe and alternate dimension interchangeably.

There is a theory that you can't alter time significantly if you go back in time. That instead, what happens is that time has safety valves that direct you to an alternate past or timeline, and that your actions then become part of the tapestry of that alternate dimension. So Nero's -- and Spock-Prime's -- actions simply became part of the continuity of that parallel dimension, now embodied by Trek XI.

This means that we are now dealing with an alternate version of the ST universe we're more familiar with. Altering the Kelvin's history, and James Kirk's history, may have had subtle effects in this new version of the ST universe. For one thing, we see that the Federation has had contact with the Romulans by the time Kirk is aboard this version of Enterprise, and that there isn't the issue of "We don't know what the Romulans look like" introduced in Balance of Terror. This may have been an indirect result of Nero's time travels.

Or, without even these "alterations," I submit that this is an alternate timeline in which the Federation and Romulans knew what they each looked like, in contradiction to BOT. That could be evidence that this was already an alternate reality. Nero knew of the ST universe we're familiar with because he came from an alternate future.

Wrap your head around that one, people!

Red Ranger

 

[Disillusioned]

Given the number of differences between the established "prime" universe and what was seen during Nero's initial incursion, I also feel that it was always an AU. Given the silliness of what caused Nero to go back in time, I'd like to think the future portion of the movie was also an AU.

 

[Red Ranger]

Given the number of differences between the established "prime" universe and what was seen during Nero's initial incursion, I also feel that it was always an AU. Given the silliness of what caused Nero to go back in time, I'd like to think the future portion of the movie was also an AU.

I think that's the best way to reconcile the inconsistencies. There are infinite numbers of quantum realities, if you buy the theory that whatever can happen does happen across this multiverse. -- RR

 

[pookha]

Given the number of differences between the established "prime" universe and what was seen during Nero's initial incursion, I also feel that it was always an AU. Given the silliness of what caused Nero to go back in time, I'd like to think the future portion of the movie was also an AU.

we know so little of the kelvin time period i dont see a lot of real basis for this.

 

[Red Ranger]

Given the number of differences between the established "prime" universe and what was seen during Nero's initial incursion, I also feel that it was always an AU. Given the silliness of what caused Nero to go back in time, I'd like to think the future portion of the movie was also an AU.

we know so little of the kelvin time period i dont see a lot of real basis for this.

I buy that idea, as there was at least one major inconsistency between the so-called Prime universe and the one shown in the latest flick. I mentioned it above, but the fact that Federation folks know what Romulans look like is a divergence from the old continuity as established in Balance of Terror. Either Nero's incursion changed that, or he wound up in an alternate past. If so, that makes his efforts all the more futile. -- RR

 

[pookha]

uh nero changed that...

for one thing they probably had a record of the original communications as it came in before the ut processed it.

all of a sudden you have people who look like vulcans but are speaking what is known to be romulan ...

no wonder the crew and robau looked confused at times..
they might have thought at first once they saw them they were dealing with crazy maurading vulcans.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Certain fans keep saying that all the old series are "wiped out", despite all explanations to the contrary. I don't know if there's any way to please them. I think they want STXI to be an attack on the old shows to give their dissatisfaction ground it doesn't really have.

 

[Jax]

I will always believe the prime universe has been changed because 95% of time travel in TREK has always dealt with our timeline ONLY and we have only ever seen one different Universe to ours and that is the mirror universe, the rest is our Universe.

I don't mind the PRIME being gone because well its not since I know I have watched for over 15 years But to each there own. As for any other details I put that down to it being a REBOOT.

 

[God Magnus]

I will always believe the prime universe has been changed because 95% of time travel in TREK has always dealt with our timeline ONLY and we have only ever seen one different Universe to ours and that is the mirror universe, the rest is our Universe.

IIRC (it's been a while), the episode "Parallels" in TNG showed a ton of other Enterprises when several different universes converged at one spot. These included one where Worf and Deanna were married, another where Wes was Lt. of the Enterprise and so on. These were all separate than the Mirror Universe and shown on screen.

 

[Jax]

I will always believe the prime universe has been changed because 95% of time travel in TREK has always dealt with our timeline ONLY and we have only ever seen one different Universe to ours and that is the mirror universe, the rest is our Universe.

IIRC (it's been a while), the episode "Parallels" in TNG showed a ton of other Enterprises when several different universes converged at one spot. These included one where Worf and Deanna were married, another where Wes was Lt. of the Enterprise and so on. These were all separate than the Mirror Universe and shown on screen.

Hence my 95% remark but compared to prime universe stories in time travel there outnumbered big time. What floars your boat I say

 

[God Magnus]

Hence my 95% remark but compared to prime universe stories in time travel there outnumbered big time. What floars your boat I say

It's funny, since I saw "Mirror, Mirror" when I was a kid, it burned in my brain the idea that any other universe/timeline shown in ST was an "alternate reality" separate from the "Prime" reality. When I saw TNG use time travel and parallel universes, it always felt like the "one timeline" idea was "newer" to me.

As for preference? I have none. Use what you need to tell a good story and entertain me and I'm good.

 

[Red Ranger]

uh nero changed that...

for one thing they probably had a record of the original communications as it came in before the ut processed it.

all of a sudden you have people who look like vulcans but are speaking what is known to be romulan ...

no wonder the crew and robau looked confused at times..
they might have thought at first once they saw them they were dealing with crazy maurading vulcans.

Well, it's a little thin to me, but not a bad explanation. It doesn't negate the possibility that Nero traveled to an alternate past similar to the Prime universe but with a few differences, like the Federation and Romulans knowing what they each looked like. -- RR

 

[gastrof]

...Nero is not in the same timeline as the one he occupied before exiting the 24th century via black/white/wormhole to the 22nd century, where his arrival creates a branching point. Because of that branching, he will not be able to count on history playing out in the same way as it had in the Prime timeline with which he is familiar. That's a parallel universe...

The problem with this line of thinking is that it flies in the face of all time travel stories already done in the TREK universe. In the Trek universe, altering the past doesn't produce an offshoot timeline. It produces a change in the timeline you're in. In order to fix and restore, you have to undo whatever caused the change.

If the "offshoot" theory was valid in previous TREK, then Kirk and company never, EVER got home from the Guardian's planet. The original TREK universe LOST its Kirk and Spock, Uhura, Scotty, etc., since the best they could do is create a THIRD universe very much like the first. (The second being the one where Keeler lived and Earth died.)

No indication in any time travel story up to JJ-Trek that "offshoot" is how it works, tho'. All evidence says that in Trek, if you change the past, you change the past.

That's just what would have happened.

If Nero changed the past, he CHANGED THE PAST, and the timeline we knew is now GONE.

As for creating a parallel universe...

Parallel universes have always seemed to be co-existant from the moment of creation on. Not created at turning points.

When you consider some of what we saw on the Kelvin was out of step with previously known Trek (TOS communicators YEARS before they should have existed, tech that looked "too good", etc.), the conclusion I personally HAVE TO arrive at is that it was a parallel universe from the very start.

Nero and Spock crossed over to a "not so mirrored" universe. Spock Prime may have mentioned a certain number of years into the future, but how much contact had he had with anything besides Nero's ship?

I suspect that even at the end of the film he hadn't yet realized this was a totally separate realitiy from the one he came from. Over 20 years of altered history could explain anything he saw that didn't quite fit.

Spock may NEVER realize he's in the wrong reality...

And I don't really care.

We get new stories with Kirk and Spock in their prime years, even if it's a different universe than the one we knew, and likely we'd never have seen the original universe again anyway (after NEMESIS), so at least we still have SOME version of Star Trek.

It's not an offshoot of the original, tho'. Can't be. It's a separate reality, and that's okay with me.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Frankly, it depends on how you define parallel universe and time travel. For the purposes of this "explanation," I'll use the terms parallel universe and alternate dimension interchangeably.

There is a theory that you can't alter time significantly if you go back in time. That instead, what happens is that time has safety valves that direct you to an alternate past or timeline, and that your actions then become part of the tapestry of that alternate dimension. So Nero's -- and Spock-Prime's -- actions simply became part of the continuity of that parallel dimension, now embodied by Trek XI.

This means that we are now dealing with an alternate version of the ST universe we're more familiar with. Altering the Kelvin's history, and James Kirk's history, may have had subtle effects in this new version of the ST universe. For one thing, we see that the Federation has had contact with the Romulans by the time Kirk is aboard this version of Enterprise, and that there isn't the issue of "We don't know what the Romulans look like" introduced in Balance of Terror. This may have been an indirect result of Nero's time travels.

Or, without even these "alterations," I submit that this is an alternate timeline in which the Federation and Romulans knew what they each looked like, in contradiction to BOT. That could be evidence that this was already an alternate reality. Nero knew of the ST universe we're familiar with because he came from an alternate future.

Wrap your head around that one, people!

Red Ranger

Minor point: At no point in the new movie did the crew of the Kelvin know they were dealing with Romulans, just a big, powerful vessel that attacked them.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

...Nero is not in the same timeline as the one he occupied before exiting the 24th century via black/white/wormhole to the 22nd century, where his arrival creates a branching point. Because of that branching, he will not be able to count on history playing out in the same way as it had in the Prime timeline with which he is familiar. That's a parallel universe...

The problem with this line of thinking is that it flies in the face of all time travel stories already done in the TREK universe. In the Trek universe, altering the past doesn't produce an offshoot timeline. It produces a change in the timeline you're in. In order to fix and restore, you have to undo whatever caused the change.

If the "offshoot" theory was valid in previous TREK, then Kirk and company never, EVER got home from the Guardian's planet. The original TREK universe LOST its Kirk and Spock, Uhura, Scotty, etc., since the best they could do is create a THIRD universe very much like the first. (The second being the one where Keeler lived and Earth died.)

No indication in any time travel story up to JJ-Trek that "offshoot" is how it works, tho'. All evidence says that in Trek, if you change the past, you change the past.

That's just what would have happened.

If Nero changed the past, he CHANGED THE PAST, and the timeline we knew is now GONE.

As for creating a parallel universe...

Parallel universes have always seemed to be co-existant from the moment of creation on. Not created at turning points.

When you consider some of what we saw on the Kelvin was out of step with previously known Trek (TOS communicators YEARS before they should have existed, tech that looked "too good", etc.), the conclusion I personally HAVE TO arrive at is that it was a parallel universe from the very start.

Nero and Spock crossed over to a "not so mirrored" universe. Spock Prime may have mentioned a certain number of years into the future, but how much contact had he had with anything besides Nero's ship?

I suspect that even at the end of the film he hadn't yet realized this was a totally separate realitiy from the one he came from. Over 20 years of altered history could explain anything he saw that didn't quite fit.

Spock may NEVER realize he's in the wrong reality...

And I don't really care.

We get new stories with Kirk and Spock in their prime years, even if it's a different universe than the one we knew, and likely we'd never have seen the original universe again anyway (after NEMESIS), so at least we still have SOME version of Star Trek.

It's not an offshoot of the original, tho'. Can't be. It's a separate reality, and that's okay with me.

Actually, if you think about it, the movie doesn't contradict the way time travel has always been in the past. All of the other Time Travel Stories follow one chain of events where, for the most part, the timeline has been preserved well enough that little to no difference is noticed.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

...Nero is not in the same timeline as the one he occupied before exiting the 24th century via black/white/wormhole to the 22nd century, where his arrival creates a branching point. Because of that branching, he will not be able to count on history playing out in the same way as it had in the Prime timeline with which he is familiar. That's a parallel universe...

The problem with this line of thinking is that it flies in the face of all time travel stories already done in the TREK universe. In the Trek universe, altering the past doesn't produce an offshoot timeline. It produces a change in the timeline you're in. In order to fix and restore, you have to undo whatever caused the change.

If the "offshoot" theory was valid in previous TREK, then Kirk and company never, EVER got home from the Guardian's planet. The original TREK universe LOST its Kirk and Spock, Uhura, Scotty, etc., since the best they could do is create a THIRD universe very much like the first. (The second being the one where Keeler lived and Earth died.)

No indication in any time travel story up to JJ-Trek that "offshoot" is how it works, tho'. All evidence says that in Trek, if you change the past, you change the past.

That's just what would have happened.

If Nero changed the past, he CHANGED THE PAST, and the timeline we knew is now GONE.

As for creating a parallel universe...

Parallel universes have always seemed to be co-existant from the moment of creation on. Not created at turning points.

When you consider some of what we saw on the Kelvin was out of step with previously known Trek (TOS communicators YEARS before they should have existed, tech that looked "too good", etc.), the conclusion I personally HAVE TO arrive at is that it was a parallel universe from the very start.

Nero and Spock crossed over to a "not so mirrored" universe. Spock Prime may have mentioned a certain number of years into the future, but how much contact had he had with anything besides Nero's ship?

I suspect that even at the end of the film he hadn't yet realized this was a totally separate realitiy from the one he came from. Over 20 years of altered history could explain anything he saw that didn't quite fit.

Spock may NEVER realize he's in the wrong reality...

And I don't really care.

We get new stories with Kirk and Spock in their prime years, even if it's a different universe than the one we knew, and likely we'd never have seen the original universe again anyway (after NEMESIS), so at least we still have SOME version of Star Trek.

It's not an offshoot of the original, tho'. Can't be. It's a separate reality, and that's okay with me.

If the past was changed without an alternate reality being created, we'd have a Paradox, since Spock remembers different events in the future, such as Kirk's father being alive, and was surprised that Kirk was not the captain.