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Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously)

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^And in only 18 more months :rolleyes:
There is no need for the fucking obnoxious little rolling eyes icon -- especially when this last book has only been out for three goddamn weeks. Books take time to write. Writers have their own lives and obligations to deal with. Publishers and editors need to work on other projects and serve an audience that goes beyond just you. It's not a grand conspiracy to deny you your next dose of instant gratification, so stow the cutesy shit, 'k?

Calm down dude. Who said anything about a conspiracy? I wasn't implying that the publishers or editors were trying to keep the books away or anything. I just really enjoyed Losing the Peace, and I wish that another TNG book was coming sooner rather than later; and I am fully aware of the reality of book publishing. I know that they take time to write. I wasn't trying to be obnoxious. This is a board where we can all come to talk about our love of treklit. You may need to re-read the rules. Maybe you should stow the flaming of other posters. I've been on these boards for months, and if you check my past posts, you'll notice that I don't really have a history of obnoxiousness; especially when it comes to how and when the books are published.

Shit man...I'd hate to see how you treat people who didn't like your work.
 
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Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

It's stated at the end that the Federation has shrunken in terms of territory...why would this be? Certainly the population has shrunken due to the attacks, but is what is considered 'Federation Space' actually smaller now, because of the loss of so many planets?
With the loss of several planets, and 40% of Starfleet ships, personnel and materiel, it is inevitable that the Federation would shrink. On planets where the entire population has been wiped out and the planet itself isn't likely to be inhabitable for a few millennia, it would be pointless to claim it as territory unless it had raw materials. I'm sure there are now dozens of sectors lying unclaimed or empty that Starfleet just can't patrol.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

It's stated at the end that the Federation has shrunken in terms of territory...why would this be? Certainly the population has shrunken due to the attacks, but is what is considered 'Federation Space' actually smaller now, because of the loss of so many planets?
With the loss of several planets, and 40% of Starfleet ships, personnel and materiel, it is inevitable that the Federation would shrink. On planets where the entire population has been wiped out and the planet itself isn't likely to be inhabitable for a few millennia, it would be pointless to claim it as territory unless it had raw materials. I'm sure there are now dozens of sectors lying unclaimed or empty that Starfleet just can't patrol.

I see what you're saying, but given the 3-dimensional nature of space I wonder how this would really work. I wonder if the planets attacked synch-up with any 'map' of a pronged-type attack if I looked at Star Charts. I wonder if, as you say, there are any 'former' Federation planets stuck in a 'no man's land'...
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

With only 60% of the ships in the fleet still viable, many of SF's ships/operations, will most likely, have to move more coreward. The new alliances they are hoping to formalize will hopefully make the need for regular patrols in certain areas less of a necessity. For example...the border with the IRS. Or the border with the Cardassians. If these nations are part of the Khitomer Accords (which they aren't...yet) then this will free up some of the fleet for other operations, as regular patroling of the border of an ally would seem lilke you don't actually trust them ;)
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Bajor is almost certainly the most distant Federation world still intact. Though there may be something close to Starbase 185 (where Titan headed to the Gum Nebula from).
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Before I jump into this minor debate again, I want to emphasize to William Leisner that the length of the Articles is a mere nitpick and that it in no way detracted from the quality of Losing the Peace, which is excellent and quite inspirational. :bolian:

^How long is the Magna Carta?...or the US Bill of Rights?

This translation of the Magna Carta (it was originally written in Latin) is 3,575 words long and reaches about six pages in a Word document set for Times New Roman with 1" top and bottom margins and 1.25" side margins. It has a preamble, 37 main paragraphs that would probably be called articles or sections if it were being written today, and two closing paragraphs (one of which mostly consists of names of witnesses and signatories).

The United States Constitution as originally passed by the thirteen states -- that is, without any of the amendments, including the first ten, which are collectively known as the Bill of Rights -- was 4,543 words long.

It had a preamble, seven articles, and a concluding paragraph and signatures. The longest article, Article I, has 10 sections; Article II, 4 sections; Article III, 3 sections; Article IV, 4 sections; and Articles V, VI, and VII each have one unnumbered section. Depending on how you format it, comes to about 11 pages or so in a standard Word document.

With the Bill of Rights added, the Constitution comes to 5,025 words and 12 pages. No amendment in the Bill of Rights was more than a paragraph long.

With the rest of the amendments passed since the Bill of Rights added, the Constitution comes to 7,643 words, or about 18 pages. Most of the amendments are only one or two paragraphs long and possess only two sections.

So even if we counted the preamble, concluding paragraph and signatures, and the amendments as individual articles, the U.S. Constitution would only be 36 articles long.

Don't the Ferengi have over 200 Rules of Acquisition?

The Rules of Acquisition are the Ferengi holy book, not their governing document. It'd be more akin to the Bible than a constitution.

When drafting a document that outlines rules for a society, it can tend to get a bit long.

Not really. A constitution is not meant to establish all of the laws of a state, but to establish the basic process by which the state will function and create laws, and the rights of the state's inhabitants. A good constitution actually needs to be as short and simple as possible; it is the role of legislation to be long and complex.

Humanity has several different Bill's of Rights in several nations...just imagine one set of rules for 100's of billions of people across several dozen worlds ;)

Well, I could easily see the set of Federation statutes -- laws passed by the Council and President; that is, the Federation equivalent to the United States Code -- reaching 109 articles or more, certainly. The U.S. Code has 50 titles of varying lengths -- it's so long that I am frightened of what it would look like in a Word document.

But Articles of the Federation established that the Articles of the Federation is the formal name for the Federation constitution, so the idea that their governing constitution is 109 articles long is just spooky. A layman could never understand the basic constitutional processes of his/her society with a length like that. A length like that reminds me of the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe -- which was rejected by most European Union voters in part because it was entirely too long.

The Charter of the United Nations has 111 Articles. That's just for one planet and one sentient species.

But it only has 19 chapters, which are the basic units of the Charter (which themselves are divided into articles).

But then, I see the source of my surprise: Because the Federation constitution is called the Articles of the Federation, I had assumed that an article was the largest division of text -- the equivalent to an article in the U.S. Constitution or to a chapter in the U.N. Charter.

If the articles are divisions of larger units, then I can easily see the Articles of the Federation being 109 articles long yet not be so long as to be difficult for a non-lawyer to understand -- the U.S. Constitution has around 73 separate sections (depending on how you count articles and amendments that are divided into multiple paragraphs covering different topics without being formally numbered into sections), if we count those instead of articles, for instance.

I suppose my nitpick then boils down to, "Should that be Section 109 instead of Article 109?" But, again, that's an incredibly minor piece of minutiae.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

It's stated at the end that the Federation has shrunken in terms of territory...why would this be? Certainly the population has shrunken due to the attacks, but is what is considered 'Federation Space' actually smaller now, because of the loss of so many planets?

When dealing with territory in space, we're not talking about contiguous, orderly blobs. Look at Star Charts and you'll see that the area regarded as Federation space is very squiggly and branchy. And even that's somewhat of an affectation; the idea of territory in space encompassing an entire volume in the first place is pretty much imaginary, since space is so huge and empty. Realistically, any given power's territory consists only of the individual star systems and interstellar bases that it occupies, and maybe the regularly patrolled routes between them.

Even going with the "blob" model, the fiction of a contiguous claimed volume in space, if you look at the map on p. 62-3 of Star Charts, you'll see there's a fairly large chunk of the UFP between the Klingon and Romulan borders, most of which has now been depopulated by the Borg, along with much of Klingon and Romulan territory in that vicinity as well -- pretty much a sphere around the Azure Nebula. So the UFP has effectively lost territory stretching from the Klingon and Romulan borders back to fairly near its core. Not because someone else has claimed the territory, but simply because there's no UFP presence there anymore.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

According to the key in the Star Charts (specifically the 10ly key in the upper right corner of page 63), and assuming President Bacco was correct in specifying the 100ly dead zone in any direction from the Azure Nebula, you cannot use warp engines in the Sol sector, which falls within that boundary.

Now, since I am presuming that Star Charts fudged some serious distance measurements, I would discount that somewhat, but I want to ask what the borders of this dead zone are?
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

According to the key in the Star Charts (specifically the 10ly key in the upper right corner of page 63), and assuming President Bacco was correct in specifying the 100ly dead zone in any direction from the Azure Nebula, you cannot use warp engines in the Sol sector, which falls within that boundary.

She meant it was a dead zone in the sense of the Borg having exterminated all life in that area, not in the sense of not being able to use warp drive.

I can't recall if the 100 light-years figure was diameter or radius, though.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^radius - "100 lightyears in each direction of the Azure Nebula"
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Keep two things in mind:

1) "One hundred light years" is probably an estimate.

2) Space is 3-dimensional, so the true distance between two points in a 2-D Star Charts map would be greater than shown if the points were at different distances "above" or "below" the plane of the map. For instance, if they appear to be 80 light-years apart but there's an undepicted "vertical" separation of 60 ly, then they're actually 100 ly apart (a 3:4:5 right triangle).
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I always had the impression that even within Federation borders there were huge tracts of unexplored territory.Planets that may only have been the subject of a long range scan which starfleet might never visit.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Bill,

With my mind now reeling with star charts and shrunken Federation space and the...Magna Carta, is it safe to "nit-pick" again?
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Loved the book. Prior to Destiny I had only read the DS9-R books,so the new characters are brand new for me in the trilogy but especially this book, since they had more focus.

I especially loved the part at the end where:
Akaar offers Picard the admiralty. It seemed very natural and I loved the comparison between Picard and Kirk, especially because Picard's "kidnappings" were very Kirk-esque. Akaar's line about needing a Kirk was perfect!
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I am curious. Is there another book or story exploring Admiral Akaar's past?
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I am curious. Is there another book or story exploring Admiral Akaar's past?

A younger Leonard James Akaar appeared in The Lost Era: The Sundered (2298) by Michael A. Martin & Andy Mangels, Titan: The Red King by Martin & Mangels, and, unless I am mis-remembering, in Excelsior: Forged in Fire, also by Martin & Mangels.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I apologize if you are aware of this, but he originally appeared in the TOS episode "Friday's Child." You can read a brief bio about him at Memory Beta which summarizes his original TV appearance, his novel appearances, and his comic book appearance.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Finished this book the other day and really enjoyed it. Looking forward to Mr. Leisner's next book, whenever it may appear.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I enjoyed the book and found it interesting.

In terms of lengths of articles, I believe the Mexican Constitution of 1917 has something like 126 articles or more. I know its quite long when I last printed it out.

109 Articles doesn't necessarily seem inordinately long when your dealing with multiple planetary governments.
 
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