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Some thoughts from a Neophyte...

Sadistro

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Hello, hello!

As a new poster, I thought the best way to kick things off would be to discuss my thoughts on the seasons, episodes, characters in general terms etc. Ironically, I don't have much time today, but I hope to expand on all this at some length.

So...

Season One.
Generally speaking, I actually liked this quite a lot. Although I think few would argue that the show got much more professional, the early seasons have an energy and an atmosphere that is lacking (for me) later on.

I like dark Sci-Fi and the early seasons (particularly Season One) have a 'Heaven and Hell', Light and Dark, Good and Evil thing that is rarely so evident later on. Much of this is down to the skills of Director Rob Bowman, who showed in his years on The X-Files that he could deliver chilling pictures of bewitching power.

And his episodes are usually the best in this and the next season, as he brings such weight and power to the screen. Episodes like 'Where No-one has gone before' and 'Datalore' seem to seethe with dark energy pulling at the screen. Locations often appear hellish and blasted, hinting at dark forces at work.

With the surrounding universe(s) not yet established, the possibilities seem so much more open in this season. The crew are true explorers in strange, supernatural waters, encountering demons and angels. Before the 'working class' realism that Michael Piller brings later, the series seems more truly wondrous and horrific.

Q puts it best in one of his episodes (I forget which Season though), when he describes space as containing treasures and wonders to satiate every vice and desire - but it's not for the faint hearted.

Well, that's all I have time for.
See y'all soon,
Sad (probably should have thought that name through a bit more...)
 
Well, I doubt you'll find many season 1 and 2 lovers in the fandom... I am one of them, though. (Especially season 2.) "Where No One Has Gone Before" is one of my favorite episodes as well. So I actually find myself agreeing with most of what you said. Hehe.

I love the whole TOS feeling season 1 has. ;) My favorite season 1 episode has to be "The Neutral Zone", though.
 
Sadistro:

Welcome to the board! As MrsPicard noted, not a lot of BBSers here are fans of the first two seasons. I tend to agree that the series really picks up steam starting with the third season, and especially by the end of it with Best of Both Worlds.

Having said that, there are several first- and second-season eps I really enjoy. I also enjoy Where No One Has Gone Before. Other first-season eps I like include The Battle, Conspiracy, Heart of Glory, and Symbiosis. Some of the best second-season gems, IMHO, are The Measure of a Man, Elementary, Dear Data, A Matter of Honor, and Peak Performance.

Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on TNG!

Red Ranger
 
Other first-season eps I like include The Battle, Conspiracy, Heart of Glory, and Symbiosis.

I love "Conspiracy", too. It's a shame it never really got a sequel... I'd have loved to find out where these strange alien parasite thingies actually came from and what would've happened if they had come back. "The Battle" always gives me a headache, though. *lol* Seriously, I can't watch the episode without getting a headache as well. (Maybe it's because there's too much Crusher, though. *gag* *lol*)

Oh and I really enjoy "11001001"... Jean-Luc speaking French = too cute to ignore. ;)
 
Greetings all, nice to meet you!

It's easy to see why people would prefer the series from Season 3 onwards. The actors have had time to get to know their characters, the effects and sets come on in leaps and bounds etc etc.

But I feel the loss of Rob Bowman is a profound one after Season 2. His episodes are so visually interesting and ambitious, they stand out so strongly. His brief return for S4's 'Brothers' is no exception. The shot of Soong lying broken with the ornaments circling overhead is just one small example of his greater vision.

Many episodes have great stories but are let down slightly by how ordinarily they are shot and executed. 'The Best of Both Worlds' is an interesting two parter, but it isn't nearly 'nightmarish' enough for my liking.

I also find that post season 2, the specific interactions of the main cast are toned down. In the early seasons, attention is paid to working up partnerships between the characters. There are a lot of instances of Riker and Picard working side by side, the whole business of Riker being over-protective when Picard wants to go on missions etc.

There is the Dr Crusher and Picard sexual tension which runs strongly throughout S1. When McFadden returns in S3, you expect it to start up again, yet it is barely touched on through Seasons 3-5.

In S3 omwards, everyone is just comfortable with each other - everyone is friends with everyone else, working to complete the mission of the week. There is little time set aside from their interactions, beyond general camaraderie. Such instances tend only to come on when the episode specifically calls for them and beyond the connections established in the early seasons, it's rare to see new ones form (for example Dr Crusher seems an island, close only to Troi and Picard and that only in very specific episodes outside of S1-2).

Talking about characters in general, I think Picard and Worf particularly benefit from the shifts in S3 onwards. Worf is rarely lightly written for in the early seasons and it's particularly annoying that he keeps getting beaten up to show how hard certain enemies are! Picard also is a good but not amazing character in the early going. Patrick Stewart is a fabulous actor and it is this skill which sustains interest in the early seasons as the writers don't seem to really connect with the character.

Both characters get a huge boost from S3 onwards. It doesn't hurt that one of the best writers of TV Sci-Fi I have ever seen (Ron D Moore) likes both of them!

The character who suffers the most though is Riker. In the first two seasons, he gets plenty of good episodes, showing him to be a dedicated, tough, smart and throughly decent man. The 'ladies man' angle is there, but the writers don't let it get in the way of showing him to be a true hero.

It's easy to see why they'd like him too. Frakes is a likeable actor, and next to an older captain, Riker offers much. His youth and vigour allow him to lead dangerous missions and engage in more physical action, fights, stunts etc. His good looks open up the possiblity of romantic plots, and his 'man of the people' attitude seals what is a nice complement to the more diplomatic, intellectual Picard.

And that's how it plays in Seasons 1 and 2. Season 2 particularly sees a season wide arc for Riker where he is shown to be the very model of Starfleet talent. He is given the task of being a role model for Wesley, transfers to a Klingon ship to show them what the Federation is capable of and stands for, delivers a tremendous performance under pressure as Devil's advocate against Date in 'The Measure of a Man' and outwits Picard in the war games in 'Peak Performance' before saving the day.

But then it all falls apart for him in S3 onwards. Because Patrick Stewart was so powerful and believeable in whatever situation he was put in, the writers increasingly used him in action, romance and comedy plots, adding to his usual skill in the diplomatic, cultural episodes. This was accompanied by the fact that Worf suddenly came on in leaps and bounds as Ron Moore put his mind to beefing up the character with more muscular plots.

The pool of authoity personnel became too crowded for Riker to stand much of a chance. In any given situation it was increasingly likely that the writers would choose to go with either Picard, Data or Worf before they got round to giving Riker much to do.

More and more he becomes a rather jokey, womanising clown, used for comic relief or constantly playing second fiddle to the others. Specific Riker episodes become rarer and rarer and are often rather silly, nothing episodes. Few of the writers seemed all that bothered with the character. Jeri Taylor usually tries to give Riker something decent to do, but still rarely makes him the focus on the episode (probably not her fault actually, as she'd be given stories to develop etc).

Indeed her desire to see Riker well served sometimes gets in the way. 'Silicon Avatar' is one such example. Riker's heroism in saving the colonists at the start is a return to the kind of form he hadn't displayed in aaagges. The problem was that it took quite a bit of time in what was actually supposed to be an episode about Data and Dr Marr. So the ending feels very rushed and has one of those 'Oops, we're out of time!' abrupt endings...

I'll be going over my thoughts on the S1 episodes soon, but here's my list of what I really enjoyed and the ones I thought were okay.

The A List (i.e my favourite episodes of S1 - not in any order of merit):
'Where No-one has Gone Before.'
'Datalore.'
'Too Short a Season.'
'Coming of Age.'
'Skin of Evil.'
'Conspiracy.'

And my B list (these are episodes I thought were good, but not quite what they could have been):
'Encounter at Farpoint, pt 1.'
'The Naked Now.' (I know, I know, I'll explain in a bit...)
'Lonely Among Us.'
'The Battle.'
'Hide and Q.'
'11001001.'
'Heart of Glory.'
'The Neutral Zone.'

So I'll explain some of these choices when I'm next about.

So until then, I'll be on my merry way.
 
First of all, I hope you won't mind me taking your post apart, Sadistro... It's just easier to respond to certain parts of it if I split it up. ;)

I also find that post season 2, the specific interactions of the main cast are toned down. In the early seasons, attention is paid to working up partnerships between the characters. There are a lot of instances of Riker and Picard working side by side, the whole business of Riker being over-protective when Picard wants to go on missions etc.

Hehe yes, the Picard & Riker relationship sure is a nice one. Although I think that episodes like "The Best Of Both Worlds" or "Gambit" also showed Riker being muchly concerned about Jean-Luc. It's not just the early episodes. But yeah, I like the two working side by side like in "11001001". Or their phaser training thingy in "A Matter Of Honor". Enjoyed it very much.
However, consider the episode "The Pegasus" in season 7. (Not really a fan of season 7, but that episode is an exception.) The way Riker imitates him with that doll and Jean-Luc's reaction clearly show how much they like each other. The season 1 Jean-Luc would NEVER have reacted in that way. He'd have thrown Riker into the brig for 'mocking a senior officer'! :lol:

There is the Dr Crusher and Picard sexual tension which runs strongly throughout S1. When McFadden returns in S3, you expect it to start up again, yet it is barely touched on through Seasons 3-5.

I'm kinda glad about this... I absolutely LOATHE Picard/Crusher. But I kinda see your point. I simply hate the pairing too much. I did like Picard/Pulaski in season 2, though. ;) Now THAT is something I'd have liked to see continued. ;)

But then it all falls apart for him in S3 onwards. Because Patrick Stewart was so powerful and believeable in whatever situation he was put in, the writers increasingly used him in action, romance and comedy plots, adding to his usual skill in the diplomatic, cultural episodes.

It was because of Mr. Stewart's own request that the writers did this. He felt like being trapped, he didn't know where to go with Jean-Luc, he complained about Jean-Luc always being on the bridge without any action plots or something. So they gave him more. I must say I actually prefer the grumpy Jean-Luc from the first two seasons, although I can see that it most likely wouldn't have worked for them to let him stay that way throughout the rest of the show. It was good that Mr. Stewart requested this, but for me as a "grumpy Jean-Luc fan", it just didn't really make me happy. But hey, the season 3-7 Jean-Luc is also very nice. Just not as grumpy. ;)

The pool of authoity personnel became too crowded for Riker to stand much of a chance. In any given situation it was increasingly likely that the writers would choose to go with either Picard, Data or Worf before they got round to giving Riker much to do.

Well Riker still got his episodes... I ain't no real Riker fan or Riker expert, so I can't tell you what I think about his character change - but I do know that I liked the over-protective season 2 Riker:


"Oh cluck cluck cluck, Number One."
"Sir?"
"You're being a mother hen."
:guffaw:
 
The Horga'hn business in "Captain's Holiday" is also a memorable bit of Picard/Riker business. Riker isn't even onscreen for the payoff, but his presence is strongly felt.

I've said this a million times before, but the use of Picard over Riker that made the least sense was in "Sins of the Father". It was Riker who was developing a special bond with Worf in Season 2, and Riker who'd gained experience operating in Klingon culture.
 
Obviously, I'm not saying that Riker gets nothing, but if you compare him in the first two seasons to how he is later on, it's pretty sad really. He goes from being one of the main driving forces to being little more important than say, Dr Crusher or La Forge.

The business with Risa is one of my main bones of contention because it marks his fall from vigorous, dependable hero to simple comic relief, jokey playboy. I'm not saying such portrayals aren't funny - they frequently are. But he was a more complete and interesting character in S1-2.

Season Two particularly is 'Riker's Season' in my opinion. He is heavily involved in pretty much all the best episodes and has that arc as I discussed whereby they show him as 'the best of the best.' You'll notice that the season ends with two Riker episodes also - 'Peak Performance' and 'Shades of Grey'.

'Sins of the Father' is a good example of what we've been talking about - Picard getting storylines that really should have been for Riker. They seem to realise in about Season 5 that they'd gone a bit far. So in 'Ethics', Worf asks Riker to help him commit suicide - but by that time, it's much more likely he'd have asked Picard...!

I'd also like to point out that Seasons 1 and 2 contribute so much to the series as a whole. Look at all the major recurring villains, heroes and plots of the series:

Q - Season 1.
The Traveller - Season 1.
The Borg - Season 2.
Guinan - Season 2.
The Crystalline Entity - Season 1.
Lore - Season 1.

Not to mention that the whole cast survive basically intact because Roddenberry et al were on the money with regard to casting and conception. And as MrsPicard pointed out, Dr Pulaski was great also - I personally like her much more than Crusher also (but to be fair, Dr Crusher gets so few episodes, it's to be expected - Pulaski probably has more starring episodes despite only being in one season!)

I just feel that the crew fits together in a more interesting way in the first two seasons. The greater detail and specifics of the various friendships mean that when Tasha Yar dies, even though she really didn't do all that much, you still get such an emotional hit when they say goodbye.

The Data and Tasha Yar storyline is also at its best in these early seasons. The subtle references that Data makes now and then when Yar is still alive, the revelation that he has that projection of her etc. I don't like how they kept bringing Denise Crosby back from S3 onwards - particularly as Yar's eventual fate as a Romulan consort who is eventually executed is quite grim to say the least!

They play it so well in the early seasons. Yar who is carrying around that pain and fear from her formative years and Data, who is incapable of acting like those monstrous 'people' from her homeworld (and is instead symboically the most innocent and decent of all the crew).

The funeral scene is excellent because it's one of those times when it's made all the sadder because Data can't feel how awful it is - but we can. So we feel closer to him because we're sort of feeling the pain on his behalf.

It isn't that I don't like S3 onwards - I just don't like the shift in tone as much. I don't mind the working class, realistic feel on principle - I love DS9 for example - but I thought TNG was better with a more wonder/horror approach.

I may as well put up my list of S2 favourites, actually. It might make more sense to give a sense of what I like and don't like before I talk of specific episodes...

So Season Two A and B lists:

The A list:
'A Matter of Honor.'
'The Measure of a Man.'
'Contagion.'
'Q Who?'
'Peak Performance.'

And the B List:
'Where Silence has Lease.'
'Loud as a Whisper.'
'The Royale.'
'Samaritan Snare.'

So anyway, until next time...
 
I really enjoy reading your posts, Sadistro! :techman:It is so rare to talk to someone who loves the first two TNG seasons as much as I do!

Season Two particularly is 'Riker's Season' in my opinion. He is heavily involved in pretty much all the best episodes and has that arc as I discussed whereby they show him as 'the best of the best.' You'll notice that the season ends with two Riker episodes also - 'Peak Performance' and 'Shades of Grey'.

Yup, season 2 has lots of Riker. I'm not really a massive Riker fan due to his "ladies' man" attitude sometimes, but I actually really enjoy him in season 2. "Peak Performance" is definitely one of my favorite episodes, yes - especially because it features the epic Jean-Luc vs. Riker battle (love the scene in which Worf fools Jean-Luc into thinking that there's a Romulan warbird attacking). I even tend to say that "Shades Of Gray" isn't that bad, considering the fact that there was a writers' strike and they had to end the season earlier.

'Sins of the Father' is a good example of what we've been talking about - Picard getting storylines that really should have been for Riker.

Now that you mention it... yes it would probably have made more 'sense' for Worf to ask Riker, but I'm glad he asked Jean-Luc since I really enjoy Jean-Luc's little "fight scene" with the Klingons...

And as MrsPicard pointed out, Dr Pulaski was great also - I personally like her much more than Crusher also (but to be fair, Dr Crusher gets so few episodes, it's to be expected - Pulaski probably has more starring episodes despite only being in one season!)

Hehe, another Pulaski fan! I also like Pulaski much more than Crusher. I know many people think she's just a female McCoy - but I think her character really evolved in season 2, and I would have loved to see her continue aboard the Enterprise as the CMO. I really enjoyed Pulaski's "Unnatural Selection" episode. I dunno, it told us so much about her as a person and it had the famous 'hugging' scene at the end. ;)
And, to be fair, the episodes Crusher got were mostly really awful. ("Sub Rosa" comes to mind. *gag*)

I just feel that the crew fits together in a more interesting way in the first two seasons. The greater detail and specifics of the various friendships mean that when Tasha Yar dies, even though she really didn't do all that much, you still get such an emotional hit when they say goodbye.

I still cry whenever I watch the ending of "Skin Of Evil", yes. I've seen it so many times and yet...

So Season Two A and B lists:

The A list:
'A Matter of Honor.'
'The Measure of a Man.'
'Contagion.'
'Q Who?'
'Peak Performance.'

And the B List:
'Where Silence has Lease.'
'Loud as a Whisper.'
'The Royale.'
'Samaritan Snare.'

So anyway, until next time...

Totally agree with these choices. "Q Who?"... those were the days when the Borg were actually scary! "The Royale" is my all-time favorite TNG episode, btw. And Nagilum & Armus are my favorite villains. All from season 1 & 2.
 
Heya! Hearty hellos and gratuitous greetings from the unwisely named Sad...

I think when examing Pulaski's character, it's extremely unfair to criticise her as just a female McCoy. The similarities are there obviously but Muldaur brings so much fizz to the role and the writers really seem to like her - she almost always has a couple of scenes where she 'sticks her oar in' on the week's dilemma. She has a big, roll her sleeves up, 'You there - hold my bloody saw, whilst I lift his ribs up!' personality that I loved.

The ladies man angle on Riker is very annoying, but it's something that people expect of the main young male lead. My problem is that eventually threatened to take over the character.

As for 'Shades of Grey' - the information about the writer's strike does explain quite a bit. Even though the scientific logic is a bit silly, I think it could at least have been an entertaining watch if some of the memories had been re-shot and/or touched a bit. Season 1's effects and location look very primitive even by S2, and I think Bowman does the best with the resources he had. I'd certainly rather watch it than some other episodes.

I find a lot to admire in most of the early episodes, even if I don't exactly love them. For example, I'm not a huge fan of 'The Outrageous Okona', nor the Data learns comedy routines angle, but the shot of him standing alone on the stage under the lights, alone at the end is excellent. He had that crowd about him laughing, but he was still alone - the classic 'alone in a crowded room'.

I do enjoy Season two because it has a very scientific, analytical feel to it. Most of the episodes are concerned with 'Who are you, who am I, how does this work, why does it work?' We get to look properly at what kind of being Data is, how exactly we should think of him. A holodeck creation comes to terms with what it is, Nagilum examines the human condition, Q forces Picard to examine how limited humanity still is etc.

I've always agreed with what my Zodiac sign says about me. As an Aquarius, the fixed air sign, I love wonder, magic and majesty but I like to know how it works, put some framework around it to explain it. So Season two is very much my kind of thing.

Not much time today unfortunately. I'll just stick up my Season 3 picks and toddle off - but I would like to say I'm finding this forum and its inhabitants very friendly and open - a welcome change from some places on the Internet!

Season 3 - the A and B list.

The A List:

'The Survivors.'
'The Defector.'
'Yesterday's Enterprise.'
'Sins of the Father.'
'Sarek.'
'The Best of Both Worlds, pt 1.'

The B List:
'The Enemy.'
'A Matter of Perspective' (I love detective fiction!)
'Hollow Pursuits.'

Before I go, I'd just like to point out that despite including 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and 'The Best of both Worlds pt 1', I probably don't like them half as much as some do. The ideas are good for the most part, but I find them to be very pedestrian at times in how they are shot.

The reveal of Tasha Yar on the bridge is excellent in YE, but after that, it's all surprisingly ho-hum at times. I would have liked more shots of Yar looking in mirrors and feeling like she didn't belong etc.

Cliff Bole is a very strange choice for TBOBW - he's a fine director, but he clearly loves doing comedy more than horror or action (something that's very obvious in pt 2).

Both are good episodes - I'm just not sure I'm label them as the best. TBOBW certainly is one of the best ideas for a TNG episode - but as to whether it turned out that way... I'm not convinced. I agree with MrsPicard that the Borg were much scarier in S2.

So anyway, that's all for now,
Fare thee well, until it's that time again!
 
*waves* *lol*

I think when examing Pulaski's character, it's extremely unfair to criticise her as just a female McCoy. The similarities are there obviously but Muldaur brings so much fizz to the role and the writers really seem to like her - she almost always has a couple of scenes where she 'sticks her oar in' on the week's dilemma. She has a big, roll her sleeves up, 'You there - hold my bloody saw, whilst I lift his ribs up!' personality that I loved.

Agreed 100%. Yes, she was afraid of transporters, just as McCoy, and she had a similar attitude towards things, but that's basically all. She never drank alcohol in sickbay or used one of the "I'm a doctor, not a..." lines. (This does not mean that I don't like Bones. He's my favorite TOS character, actually.) She is not entirely like Bones.
I also loved her personality. She was, as Troi puts it "a dedicated physician". And far more competent than Crusher. If Crusher had been the CMO when Jean-Luc's artificial heart was failing, he'd have died. Plain and simple. Crusher could never have saved him.

The ladies man angle on Riker is very annoying, but it's something that people expect of the main young male lead.

I know. It's still annoying. But then, I also find Kirk annoying in that respect. I just don't like guys like that. It's a personal dislike. I like Riker just fine, as long as he doesn't flirt around. Then he quickly becomes a little... irritating, at least to me. I know that there are women who like this about him, but I don't.

For example, I'm not a huge fan of 'The Outrageous Okona', nor the Data learns comedy routines angle, but the shot of him standing alone on the stage under the lights, alone at the end is excellent. He had that crowd about him laughing, but he was still alone - the classic 'alone in a crowded room'.

*gag* Yes I also really really really don't care for this episode, especially not because Okona is so annoying. And the whole "Data trying to be funny" plot did nothing for me either.

Season 3 - the A and B list.

The A List:

'The Survivors.'
'The Defector.'
'Yesterday's Enterprise.'
'Sins of the Father.'
'Sarek.'
'The Best of Both Worlds, pt 1.'

The B List:
'The Enemy.'
'A Matter of Perspective' (I love detective fiction!)
'Hollow Pursuits.'

Agree with most of the choices, I just never really cared for "A Matter Of Perspective"... but I admit I do love the first scene of the episode in which Jean-Luc is painting and Data is all like "your painting leaves MUCH to be desired". The look on Jean-Luc's face is priceless! :guffaw:

Before I go, I'd just like to point out that despite including 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and 'The Best of both Worlds pt 1', I probably don't like them half as much as some do. The ideas are good for the most part, but I find them to be very pedestrian at times in how they are shot.

I loved BOBW... both parts... especially because it shows Riker in command and because it shows how he refuses to give up Jean-Luc... it's just a personal favorite of mine... on the other hand, it also always makes me sad to see what the Borg are doing to Jean-Luc. :(

I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on season 3! :techman:
 
The business with Risa is one of my main bones of contention because it marks his fall from vigorous, dependable hero to simple comic relief, jokey playboy.
Viewed on its own terms, I don't think "Captain's Holiday" is a problem episode for Riker at all. In this case, it's clearly Picard's episode--not an episode in which using Riker would have made more sense--and Riker's humorous role is the right touch for that episode, and speaks volumes as to how close Picard and Riker have grown since Picard was busting his balls in "Farpoint".

They seem to realise in about Season 5 that they'd gone a bit far. So in 'Ethics', Worf asks Riker to help him commit suicide - but by that time, it's much more likely he'd have asked Picard...!
I noticed that too! But it does make sense for Worf to choose Riker in that instance, as he had a chance of convincing Riker to do it...Picard was very clearly against it and wasn't about to take any B.S. from Worf, AIR.

The greater detail and specifics of the various friendships mean that when Tasha Yar dies, even though she really didn't do all that much, you still get such an emotional hit when they say goodbye.
OTOH, starting with Season 3 we get episodes like Ronald D. Moore's "The Bonding"...which, bad child actor and alien nonsense aside, is a very thoughtful exploration of loss with a great atmosphere when the various crewmembers are grieving over a blueshirt whom we'd never met. When revisiting that episode recently, it struck me that Tasha's death would have been better handled in that fashion, had the show been mature enough to risk such an episode at the time. Forget how she died--if it's going to be meaningless anyway, start the episode in media res when they're bringing her back to the ship and trying to revive her; then have the rest of the episode be a balance between the crew thoughtfully dealing with losing her while dealing with the situation in which she was killed.

Of course, if they'd been doing episodes like that in Season 1, Denise might not have wanted to leave!

I've never hated "Shades of Gray" because when it first aired, I hadn't seen about half of Season 1, so I appreciated the clips. It has since become a bit of a snoozer, though.

but I would like to say I'm finding this forum and its inhabitants very friendly and open - a welcome change from some places on the Internet!
That's because all of our mods come with experience in the Cardassian Guard or the Alliance military. ;)

(I was only joking--please don't agonize me! ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!)

I'm just not sure I'm label them as the best. TBOBW certainly is one of the best ideas for a TNG episode - but as to whether it turned out that way... I'm not convinced. I agree with MrsPicard that the Borg were much scarier in S2.
I'd argue that they were as scary as ever at the end of Season 3...as of the beginning of Season 4, maybe not as much....

I also loved her personality. She was, as Troi puts it "a dedicated physician".
Kind of a generic label to hang her personality on. Isn't everyone in Starfleet "a dedicated [insert job name here]"? Was Crusher merely a casual physician?
 
Sadistro, et al.,

Your musings on TNG, esp. the first two seasons, are interesting.

I am a Riker fan, and I do believe his character had no where to go after Best of Both Worlds. Oh, sure, he had some fine moments after that, like in Gambit, Future Imperfect, and The Pegasus. In that last one, the confrontation between him and Picard over what really happened on his old ship is great. I esp. like how Picard says that if he finds his trust in Riker is misplaced, he'll get another first officer!

I once posted a thread where I felt Riker could have been put in the lead of DSN. I'll recap the idea briefly. As you may recall, Sisko was the Emissary of the Bajoran Prophets, and it turned out his real mother was one of the Prophets/Wormhole aliens. What if they had sent other Prophets to make sure that an emissary would be born and arrive at Bajor, a kind of insurance policy? After all, Riker's mother, like Sisko's, died when he was very young. Of course, then we wouldn't have had the great character of Ben Sisko, but I think Riker could have fit in on that show quite nicely as the lead.

MrsPicard, yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Crusher, as we've discussed in some PMs. I also don't care too much for Dr. Pulaski, either. I wonder how interesting it would have been to have Deanna Troi as the CMO instead? Or even Guinan. Hmmm.

Red Ranger
 
'Hail comrades!' he was heard to shout, swinging across on a rope from his passing ship...

Glad to see another early Riker fan there, Red Ranger! Like you, I spent the middle seasons frowning in dismay at what little Riker was being offered and muttering 'What - the - hell is going on?!'
As to him being in DS9... well I love DS9 and although Avery Brooks' acting is a bit hit and miss sometimes, I do like the character of Ben Sisko. Frakes does star in an excellent S3 episode 'Defiant' however (as Tom Riker though).

To The Old Mixer's point (great name by the way!), I wasn't saying I disliked Riker's role in 'Captain's Holiday' as such - more that it is was indicative of the slide, the whole Risa connection etc.

Mrs Picard's (waves cheerily back, definately not in the style of 'Okona' :D) point about Kirk being an annoying ladies man is valid, although at least with Kirk, he was always like that. Riker starts out more interesting, but suffers a severe slump as we've been discussing.

'A Matter of Perspective' may not be so great really, but I love a good mystery, the suspects gathered round the table etc. In fact the love i have for detective fiction is one of the reasons I don't care much for 'Elementary, Dear Data'. I'm a HUGE Sherlock Holmes fan, so Spiner's pretty hammy interpretation was a wince inducing experience for me. The guy playing Moriarty was very good though, I must say.

My thoughts on Season 3 meanwhile, run pretty much thusly:

Under the control of a new show honcho, Michael Piller, S3 is the start of a more ‘down to earth’ era for the show (I know that sounds odd, given that it’s in space…) With the introduction of recurring characters from the Klingon and Romulan empires, political stories, increasing detail about the Federation, more use of its ships and personnel etc, the Trek world suddenly seemed at once more ‘real’ but also less mysterious for me. The universe seemed to have been ‘tamed’ somewhat.

Before that, the Enterprise seemed like a small pinprick of lights heading into a vast, unknowable galaxy, full of endless wonders and horrors. Starbases seemed like lighthouses shining in the darkness etc. Now everything just seemed a bit too ‘workaday’ at times, the Enterprise carrying out missions for Starfleet, inducting people into the Federation, getting involved in debate on the merits of such etc. There is much of interest in all that – Deep Space Nine wouldn’t be possible without this kind of work – but it did rob the show of the truly pioneering adventurous spirit of the early seasons in my opinion.

The human factor, or rather the exploration of emotions and how people relate to one another, cope with the sometimes unfair nature of life etc… all very interesting from a social point of view, but perhaps feeding the brain and the heart at the expense of the soul in my opinion. It gave rise (amongst my friends anyway) to the concept of ‘Family Matters’.

‘Family Matters’ is a derogatory term used to describe the more ‘touchy feely’ Star Trek episodes. No greater put down can be levelled against an episode than to be labelled ‘A family matters episode’. It also sees expansive use when people complain that hard races like the Borg and the Hirogen were ‘Family Matters-ed’ to death. I’ve also heard felt its presence when Star Trek was described to me as ‘Social workers in space’.

There is also the consideration that with writers like Ronald D Moore and Brannon Braga on board, the series would sometimes become quite pulpy sci-fi action fare. Very enjoyable for the most part, but this freewheeling, ‘space cowboys’ kind of thing isn’t as haunting and eerie as some of the earlier work (the sheer ‘supernatural’ horror of such baddies as Nagilum, the eerie scene in ‘Where no-one has gone before’ where Picard sees his long dead mother etc).

In broad terms though, Season 3 seems to be about the notion that ‘Life goes on… except when it doesn’t.’ Again and again over the course of the season, people are brought to a calamitous moment that could be considered *the* moment of their lives – one event that will forever be with them, gnawing away inside. And the season explores how sometimes you can help people get past the pain and see there is life beyond this seemingly all important moment – but that sometimes, people can’t get past it.

Right from the start we see this in ‘Evolution’, with the doctor whose entire life has been leading up to his experiment. When the mission looks like it might have to be abandoned, he is crushed – his life was just a means of getting to this opportunity. If it slips him by, everything will have been for nothing. The community in ‘The Ensigns of Command’ have to face the fact that despite all the history and sacrifice they have built up, they will have to leave – something absolutely unthinkable to them.

The boy whose mother is killed in ‘The Bonding’ faces the difficulty of losing his last remaining parent at a very early age. From such trauma, how can anyone go on, the season asks? Worf has to endure the dishonour of his father and exile from the Empire – two things it is hard to imagine him ever being able to live with. Keven UxBridge is forced to face up to the weight of what has happened to him and what he was driven to do to the Husnock.

Along with episodes like ‘Hollow Pursuits’ where Barclay must leave his comfortable fantasy world, these are all examples of how real life must go on, no matter how painful it is. Retreating into fantasy, not facing up to the truth of how your life is or has changed, is something the series constantly strives against.

But it isn’t always successful. The assassin in ‘The Vengeance Factor’ can’t let go of her hatred for her rivals and Riker is forced to kill her. The Romulan General in ‘The Defector’ can’t imagine any life after his exile (unlike Worf for example) and kills himself. Q also comes very close to this as he cannot stand the thought of living his life as ‘just another mortal’. For some, life cannot go on after such trauma.

These episodes are just as important because they help to balance the scales - show the power of some of the ‘baser’ emotions (greed, hatred, despair etc). Star Trek generally seeks to promote higher emotions but to truly get a sense of accomplishment and victory; it is imperative to know that the opposing forces are strong and are something ever to be guarded against. It gives us more respect for the various acts of sacrifice, if we can appreciate the intensity of the pain these characters are living with.

And of course, there are the episodes that deal with the idea that ‘Life doesn’t go on/ must not go on’. Tasha Yar must accept that she is not meant to be alive – that her life ‘spared’ has cost the lives of millions in a war that should not be happening. Data’s ‘daughter’ Lal dies and there is nothing the usually ultra-resourceful crew can do about it.

So all in all, some interesting stuff going on, but not really striking at what really interests me anymore. Not to say I don’t get any enjoyment out of it – I certainly do. But Season three is one of my least favourite nonetheless. The themes of loss and despair do appeal to me, but for whatever reason, the episodes themselves just don’t do it for me by and large.

‘The Survivors’ and ‘The Defector’ were truly excellent in my opinion, but the rest of the season just passed me by really. I was particularly disappointed with ‘Deja Q’ and the move to using Q in such a purely jokey manner. Slightly sinister undertones are always there when he is about, but I felt the earlier episodes had much more edge to them than this and the Robin Hood one. Fortunately, he later returned to form in ‘Tapestry’.

But hey, let’s not be sad – there were plenty more seasons and many more fine episodes to come. And it so happens that I really enjoyed Season Four also! And so to finish off, here’s what I was a’thinking about the Season Four episodes…

Season Four’s A and B lists.

The A list:
’Family.’ (‘Family Matters’ maybe, but done very well!)
‘Brothers.
'Remember Me.’ (A good Dr Crusher episode! – A Dr Crusher episode at all!)
‘Reunion.’
‘The Mind’s Eye.’
'Redemption, pt 1.'

And the B list:
'Final Mission.'
'The Wounded.’
‘Night Terrors.’
‘Half a Life.’

As you can see, I wasn't at all fussed with the second part of 'The Best of the Both Worlds.' It had its moments, but overall I wasn't at all impressed with how easy it was to nab Locutus off the Borg ship.

But anyway, the hour grows late (well not really, but I have to be off). So, that's all for now, folks. Until then, keep well, you crazy cats!
 
I also loved her personality. She was, as Troi puts it "a dedicated physician".

Kind of a generic label to hang her personality on. Isn't everyone in Starfleet "a dedicated [insert job name here]"? Was Crusher merely a casual physician?

Oh, I just wanted to say that I liked the way Pulaski did her job. Considering how annoying Crusher could become when Starfleet's rules and regulations kicked in (as demonstrated in "Symbiosis" and "Who Watches The Watchers", the whole THE PICARD thingy is her fault, after all, she beamed up that Mintakan), I found Pulaski's approach of 'finding a common ground' much more interesting (as she did in "Unnatural Selection" when she came up with the shuttlecraft idea when Jean-Luc told her that the risk of beaming up the child without that stasis field thingy would be too great. Crusher would simply have deactivated the stasis field because she would have thought she was right and the whole crew would probably have died). I'm not saying Crusher's not a dedicated physician. She's just not as... competent as Pulaski is. To me, at least. And she acts in a totally irrational manner sometimes, which really irritates me to no end. Pulaski, on the other hand, was always kinda rational and yet dedicated to her work. Which is part of her personality, the calm and rational manner she usually demonstrated. That is what I liked. I should've been more specific, though. Sorry.

MrsPicard, yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Crusher, as we've discussed in some PMs. I also don't care too much for Dr. Pulaski, either. I wonder how interesting it would have been to have Deanna Troi as the CMO instead? Or even Guinan. Hmmm.

Red Ranger

Hehe interesting idea! ;) Guinan as counselor and Troi as the CMO. Hmmmm! I'll have to think about this now! Almost anything that doesn't feature Crusher is fine with me, though. LOL.

Mrs Picard's (waves cheerily back, definately not in the style of 'Okona' :D) point about Kirk being an annoying ladies man is valid, although at least with Kirk, he was always like that.

Hehehehe good, no Okona-waving-style! :lol: And yes, Kirk was always like that. *nod* Point taken. Riker was a lot more serious in the first two seasons.

The guy playing Moriarty was very good though, I must say.

Oooh yes. Moriarty is one of my favorite villains. I'd love to have dinner with him, he is just so... overly civilized. :lol:

I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on season 3! I had never thought of it that way, season 3 is one of my favorite seasons (but I still prefer 1&2)... I also love "The Survivors" and "The Defector". Kevin Uxbridge is definitely one of my favorite alien-of-the-week characters, he just seems so sad and calm... I guess I just like the whole "loss" theme the season has. What I don't like is Vash, though. LOL. (Is she a "what"? I think so. :lol: )

Season Four’s A and B lists.

The A list:
’Family.’ (‘Family Matters’ maybe, but done very well!)
‘Brothers.
'Remember Me.’ (A good Dr Crusher episode! – A Dr Crusher episode at all!)
‘Reunion.’
‘The Mind’s Eye.’
'Redemption, pt 1.'

And the B list:
'Final Mission.'
'The Wounded.’
‘Night Terrors.’
‘Half a Life.’


I don't like "Remember Me", but I must admit that, back then when I still watched it (I simply ignore Crusher episodes nowadays) I always enjoyed seeing her so desperate because everyone around her vanishes and no one believes her. :evil:
And "Family" is one of my favorites as well. It is just so heartbreaking for me to see Jean-Luc cry there in the mud because of what the Borg did to him... poor guy. :( And it is also very interesting to see the house he grew up in, of course, I don't deny it. ;) I do have this username for a good reason, after all. I'm always interested in learning more about Jean-Luc.

I love "The Wounded"!!! The whole 'Starfleet captain vs. Starfleet captain' idea is just very good. *nod* Another season 4 episode I absolutely adore is "Devil's Due", but that is largely due to Ardra, I just like her. I don't know, she's very... direct in her approach. (Or as Jean-Luc puts it, she's 'obvious and vulgar'. :lol:)
 
To The Old Mixer's point (great name by the way!)
Have I come upon someone who knows where it's from...?

I find "A Matter of Perspective" disappointing in that it never gives us any reason to believe that Riker's tesitmony is anything but the god's-honest truth. It would have been far more interesting if there'd been clear evidence that Riker's recreations were as flawed as those of the other witnesses obviously were.

There was definitely something lost as the TNG universe became more "cosmopolitan". Something similar happened in TOS...it's not as easy to define exactly where and when it happened, but the early Season 1 episodes defintely captured the feel that the Enterprise was very vulnerable and alone out in a big universe full of danger and mystery. But in TNG's case, I'm with the crowd who feel that anything that TNG lost with Season 3 was more than made up for by what the show gained.

‘Family Matters’ is a derogatory term used to describe the more ‘touchy feely’ Star Trek episodes. No greater put down can be levelled against an episode than to be labelled ‘A family matters episode’.
I was getting ready to rumble over this, but you made clear downthread that you liked "Family". That episode and "The First Duty" were among my favorites. I liked that the show was mature enough, and assumed its audience was mature enough, to do episodes completely focused on personal drama without feeling the need to shoehorn in sci-fi dilemma B-plots. (This week, Data explores what it means to be human. Meanwhile, something is eating the the warp core!)

Pulaski, on the other hand, was always kinda rational and yet dedicated to her work. Which is part of her personality, the calm and rational manner she usually demonstrated.
"Kinda" is the key word here, given that she had the pronounced habit of talking over the Captain to get her points across! Rational perhaps, but a little less than calm.
 
Also, she had that prejudice against Data -- not thinking he should count as a real person and so on. It was not only very illogical, but it was annoying, and it is another of those things that make some people, including me, consider her character a very derivative one since that echoed that whole McCoy-you-don't-have-any-feelings-do-you-Spock? thing -- and which also became very annoying to me, by the way. So if I was tired of it even before TOS ended, you can imagine how I felt about it when TNG came along.

I do think Diana Muldaur is probably a better actress than Gates McFadden, but although I didn't dislike her character, I wasn't sad when she left. Maybe it would have improved with time.
 
Also, she had that prejudice against Data -- not thinking he should count as a real person and so on. It was not only very illogical, but it was annoying, and it is another of those things that make some people, including me, consider her character a very derivative one since that echoed that whole McCoy-you-don't-have-any-feelings-do-you-Spock? thing -- and which also became very annoying to me, by the way. So if I was tired of it even before TOS ended, you can imagine how I felt about it when TNG came along.

I do think Diana Muldaur is probably a better actress than Gates McFadden, but although I didn't dislike her character, I wasn't sad when she left. Maybe it would have improved with time.

JustKate:

The other thing about Pulaski that was less derivative and interesting was her relationship with Worf. A few times, it almost bordered on the romantic, but I prefer to think of it as Pulaski just liked that big Klingon lug!

Two scenes come to mind (can't remember the exact eps): They're playing poker, and it's down to Worf and Pulaski. She says to him, "Looks like it's just you and me, handsome!" And in another ep, Pulaski shares a poisoned drink with Worf as part of a Klingon ceremony -- but not before she injects herself with the antidote, of course!

To me, it's not that the CMO was a woman that bugged me, it's that their characters were poorly defined. I mentioned Troi or Guinan as possible replacements had they written their characters that way.

Another possibility, although it would make her one of the youngest CMOs we've ever seen aside from Dr. Bashir, would be if they made Tasha Yar the ship's doctor.

Red Ranger
 
I'd forgotten the Worf thing. I also thought the character had some potential regarding her sometimes stormy relationship with Picard -- a refreshing change from McCoy and Crusher (as was Bashir, now that I think about it). So, I'd say that generally speaking there was potential there, perhaps more than for the Crusher character, at least as Crusher was written. It could be that she would have become less derivative, but they really didn't give the character a chance and she wasn't around long enough to grow on me, at least, so I'll never know.

The Crusher character also had its problems, by the way -- I mean, the way the writers flipflopped her from standard-issue "grieving widow" to standard-issue "object of a one-episode romance" to standard-issue "possible love interest for the captain" and never, not once, seemed to think this might be just a tad unlikely and annoying...Ugh! drove me nuts!

Hmmm...what is the deal with CMOs on the Enterprise, anyway? Interesting.
 
Isn't part of the problem with the writers and Dr. Crusher is that, quite simply, she was pretty much an afterthought in the original writer's bible? Wasn't her character overview just a one sentence line of 'ship's medical officer, mother of Wesley'?
 
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