Some specific starship-related questions

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

Hey guys,
after years, I started updating and expanding my shiplist again (thank you, TrekBBS. ). It was a project long planned and never realized, but I feel now is a good time. I would like to use this thread to bring up some old and some never asked questions I found on my to-do for that list (that might have been answered during my hiatus, e.g. with the auctions).

1) NCC-71325 (Voyager: Caretaker). The shuttle that brought Tom Paris to DS9 had that number. I though it might have been the reg of that concept model of Voyager and someone forgot to change it, but that one had a different reg. Anyone know the story here?

2) Where did the Excelisor(s) at the end of DS9: Way of the Warrior come from? The big Excelsior studio model was already modified into Enterprise-B, and the small one wasn't built yet (VOY: Flashback). Was that an AMT kit, just like the Miranda-class "USS Trial"?

3) The Malinche in DS9: For the Uniform was the small Excelsior studio model. Either it was still labeled Excelisor or it was already labeled Fredrickson (which I doubt). Does anyone know if the ship was actually relabeled to Malinche NCC-38997 (as per Encyclopedia)? I only ever saw pictures of the saucer top of the Fredrickson studio model. Might have been a pratial relabel, like Leeds/Farragut or Excalibur/Yamaguchi, and just the underside of the saucer was changed.

4) Are there any good orthos of the Kobayashi Maru (2009er) on the net? The new Encyclopedia has an image of the CGI model, but it's not the one from Lightworks, as far as I now.

5) Likewise, do any pictures of the Hathaway exist from TNG Remstered? Not talking about Drexler's model that is pictured everywhere, but the one used on screen for that one scene at the end.

6) Does anyone have a screenshot of the Equinox's (VOY) dedication plaque? Or the Odyssey's (DS9)?

 

[Ithekro]

By the end of DS9 they started using CGI for the space battles.

 

[F. King Daniel]

4) Are there any good orthos of the Kobayashi Maru (2009er) on the net? The new Encyclopedia has an image of the CGI model, but it's not the one from Lightworks, as far as I now.

Nope, just the inaccurate Lightworks model

 

[Andru]

3) The Malinche in DS9: For the Uniform was the small Excelsior studio model. Either it was still labeled Excelisor or it was already labeled Fredrickson (which I doubt). Does anyone know if the ship was actually relabeled to Malinche NCC-38997 (as per Encyclopedia)? I only ever saw pictures of the saucer top of the Fredrickson studio model. Might have been a pratial relabel, like Leeds/Farragut or Excalibur/Yamaguchi, and just the underside of the saucer was changed.

The underside of the Malinche looks like it has the Excelsior registry, NCC-2000. The capture is not super sharp but definitely looks to me like four digits after the NCC, not five.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/5x13/fortheuniform178.jpg
With a bit of image enhancement:

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

^^^^
Yes, definitely four digits. So the registry is just the encyclopedia's "expanded canon". Apart from that, I think it's amazing how much new stuff the TNG blu-rays and the auctions unearthed.

 

[Timo]

1) NCC-71325 (Voyager: Caretaker). The shuttle that brought Tom Paris to DS9 had that number. I though it might have been the reg of that concept model of Voyager and someone forgot to change it, but that one had a different reg. Anyone know the story here?

Rick Sternbach was asked to do and redo such a vast number of hero ship iterations for VOY that the registry of one of the early versions might well have ended up on the shuttle by mistake. However, in-universe, it's pretty natural to assume that the shuttlecraft belongs to the ship that ferried Paris and Stadi to DS9. After all, Paris and Stadi are not heading for the Voyager at this stage yet - they are heading to DS9, and merely doing a hero ship flyby for fun. (We next see Paris at Quark's, and he then escorts Kim to the hero ship via the docking connection and only then first "reports on board".) It then sort of follows that they are not coming from the Voyager, either.

2) Where did the Excelisor(s) at the end of DS9: Way of the Warrior come from? The big Excelsior studio model was already modified into Enterprise-B, and the small one wasn't built yet (VOY: Flashback). Was that an AMT kit, just like the Miranda-class "USS Trial"?

Note the "TNG style" warp glow at the sides of the nacelles, not a property of the original studio model. I'd assume these were AMT kits with the lighting overlaid on these small, "low-res" models wholly in postproduction.

4) Are there any good orthos of the Kobayashi Maru (2009er) on the net? The new Encyclopedia has an image of the CGI model, but it's not the one from Lightworks, as far as I now.

I haven't found a LightWorks set on this one yet.

Then again, I sort of try to avoid those, because they are inevitably full of tiny mistakes, which IMHO is worse than either not having a pic at all or even having an obviously and grossly misdone pic. I'd much prefer being able to get the exact right dimensions, the positioning of each single hatch, and even the possible rendering errors 100% right for the complete in-universe experience.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Andru]

Note the "TNG style" warp glow at the sides of the nacelles, not a property of the original studio model. I'd assume these were AMT kits with the lighting overlaid on these small, "low-res" models wholly in postproduction.

One of them could be the USS Excel NCC-2020, we don't really know in which episodes that model was used.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but looking at that WOTW screen cap reminded me of another ship question I had... The Galaxy-class in the same scene in WOTW is supposed to be the Venture, and we have seen pictures of the 4-foot Galaxy model labeled as such. But why then is the Galaxy-class in WOTW unlabeled? There's a smudge on the saucer like if they had tried to conceal the existing registry and ship name. It doesn't add up with the carefully relabeled model we have seen pictures of. Moreover, it was the last time the physical model was used. I can't think of a good explanation for the discrepancy.

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

Rick Sternbach was asked to do and redo such a vast number of hero ship iterations for VOY that the registry of one of the early versions might well have ended up on the shuttle by mistake. However, in-universe, it's pretty natural to assume that the shuttlecraft belongs to the ship that ferried Paris and Stadi to DS9.

In-universe, it makes perfect sense. It was just weird to have a shuttle with a registry, but nothing else (like a name).

Note the "TNG style" warp glow at the sides of the nacelles, not a property of the original studio model. I'd assume these were AMT kits with the lighting overlaid on these small, "low-res" models wholly in postproduction.

Probably the Excel that Andru mentioned. So amazed by the Trieste that I fogot about that other one.

I haven't found a LightWorks set on this one yet.

I think they were posted on Facebook. I think he did them for some game, you can find a beauty shot on google.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but looking at that WOTW screen cap reminded me of another ship question I had... The Galaxy-class in the same scene in WOTW is supposed to be the Venture, and we have seen pictures of the 4-foot Galaxy model labeled as such. But why then is the Galaxy-class in WOTW unlabeled? There's a smudge on the saucer like if they had tried to conceal the existing registry and ship name. It doesn't add up with the carefully relabeled model we have seen pictures of. Moreover, it was the last time the physical model was used. I can't think of a good explanation for the discrepancy.

No worries. Let's just use this for all the small questions that do not warrant their own thread.

To be honest, I never noticed. Is it digital smear or did they just try to remove the 1701-D from the model itself?

I just checked the shooting script, it specifically called for a Galaxy-class (http://www.st-minutiae.com/resources/scripts/474.txt). I wonder why they did not reuse Enterprise or Odyssey stock footage?

162 EXT. SPACE - DEEP SPACE NINE (OPTICAL)

There are no Klingon ships in sight. Instead a Galaxy-
class starship (the Venture) is docked on the upper
pylon and two other ships are in orbit.

I was thinking time pressure, but then, they modified the model quite a bit (and I don't just mean returning her back to normal after AGT). The 'bump' on the nacelle has been turned 180° and is now facing the other way (the phaser strip is in the center of the nacelle, not at the aft end). They also did something with the pylons. At first I thought it was just the winglets they added to the AGT-Enterprise's pylons, but it looks like it has been glued directly to the nacelle. Maybe the intern was tasked with cleaning up the 4-footer for that scene without being given any instructions?

EDIT: I looked up Memory Alpha, and it makes things even more complicated. Obviously, the ship was the Odyssey *after* AGT, so it had already been returned to its original look. Then it went on an exhibition in the UK (either as Enterprise or Odyssey, I don't know), then was brought back to the US to shoot that one scene. So the AGT stuff was added again for that scene? And, to partially answer the initial question, http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/...oduction_.22odyssey.22_of_the_four-foot_model claims that the model was indeed labeled as 'USS Venture'. In that case, the smear makes even less sense.

 

[Andru]

Yep, precisely! The physical model was last seen with full Venture markings, before being restored to 1701-D for displays. The last time it was used on screen was in Way of the Warrior as the Venture (plus the few times the same footage was reused). BUT in WOTW the Galaxy is unlabeled. So the way I see it they didn't actually bother to label the model as Venture for shooting, they only covered up the existing markings (therefore it went 1701-D > Odyssey > 1701-D > unmarked). The question is, was the ship relabeled Venture only for the Planet Hollywood display? Why would they do that? Is this a case similar to the Constellation-class USS Valkyrie, where it isn't really clear why the model was relabeled after it ceased being used as a production asset?

And well spotted, I never noticed there was something different about the pylons of the Venture! I only had noticed the nacelle phasers.

One thing about the Odyssey... it's been shot in a way that we never clearly see if the phaser bumps on the nacelles are present or not.

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

One thing about the Odyssey... it's been shot in a way that we never clearly see if the phaser bumps on the nacelles are present or not.

The pics of the Odyssey on Memory Alpha are taken from the "Science of Star Trek" documentary, which is on youtube:

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At 10:27 and 14:00, you can see them handling the Odyssey model. Doesn't have any bumps.

Also, the image of the Venture after it had been returned from Planet Hollywood also had no bumps: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/...o_model_upon_return_to_Paramount_Pictures.jpg Whoever did it really just added them for that one scene and then removed them for Planet Hollywood. Which leads me to speculate that the name Venture might have been added after the episode, too.

 

[Andru]

The pics of the Odyssey on Memory Alpha are taken from the "Science of Star Trek" documentary, which is on youtube:
At 10:27 and 14:00, you can see them handling the Odyssey model. Doesn't have any bumps.

Nice, thanks! So the phaser bumps and possibly winglets were only added back for the Venture cameo. Memory Alpha has it that Gary Hutzel had the parts in his custody and was responsible for adding them back to the model.

Also, the image of the Venture after it had been returned from Planet Hollywood also had no bumps: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/...o_model_upon_return_to_Paramount_Pictures.jpg Whoever did it really just added them for that one scene and then removed them for Planet Hollywood. Which leads me to speculate that the name Venture might have been added after the episode, too.

And then the registry became canon when it was used on the CGI Galaxy in Tears of The Prophets.

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

And then the registry became canon when it was used on the CGI Galaxy in Tears of The Prophets.

Possibly earlier. The CG Galaxys and Excelsiors in Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels already had registries. At least in some shots, depending (I guess) on which effects house did that particular shot (all the fleet shots, like this one, did; most of the scenes during the battle, except the Sitak/Majestic, did not. Most prominent example for no name/reg is that shot of the two Galaxys mowing through the first line of Cardassian Galors).

Sacrifice of Angels fleet

One of them could be Venture. Remember that Hood was confirmed for 'Tears of the Prophets', but with Lakota's registry (42768)? It also made an appearance in Sacrifice of Angels (Hood/42768), leading me to believe the ships (or at least some of them) were not labelled for TatP, but for FtB/SoA:

SoA Excelsior

 

[Unicron]

I changed your images to links since they were being hot linked from TrekCore. In the future, please use your own image host for that sort of thing.

 

[Andru]

Possibly earlier. The CG Galaxys and Excelsiors in Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels already had registries.

Indeed, they probably reused a lot of the same CGI files throughout the season. Turns out that the Hood was seen labeled with two different registries but never its "proper" one from the Encyclopedia and okudagrams!

It also turns out that the screen cap of the Venture in SoA is of much better quality:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x06/sacraficeofangels359.jpg
Lo and behold, zooming in on the saucer one can figure out very faint markings where that ugly smudge is, and it does look like a registry ending in -854. Seems to me like a quick and dirty job. The shape of the 4 does not appear to match later pictures of the Venture, so perhaps it was relabeled more carefully for the restaurant display.

 

[Rick Sternbach]

Rick Sternbach was asked to do and redo such a vast number of hero ship iterations for VOY that the registry of one of the early versions might well have ended up on the shuttle by mistake.

Just so we're on the same page - I had very little to do with reg numbers on main ships and shuttles. Those were usually worked out between Mike Okuda and producer Rick Berman. Designs for miniatures and CG ships and shuttles, yeah, but applied graphics weren't part of my contribution. For really, really preliminary stuff like physical mockups, sometimes a reg number was dreamed up and added to a label but not used in filming. Graphics prep and use of library shots may account for some on-screen mixups; such was life in the crazy world of episodic TV.

Rick

 

[Timo]

Quite so - I was basically wondering if Mike didn't spy over your shoulder and tell somebody to use NCC-71325 because "it had been on his very latest and no doubt almost final and certainly very likely to be accepted sketch of the hero ship and in any case nobody is going to tell you otherwise, right?". Did any of the sketches ever have a registry that low? (I realize most had none, but since the sleek study model on pedestal did get one of those...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[trekfan39]

2) Where did the Excelisor(s) at the end of DS9: Way of the Warrior come from? The big Excelsior studio model was already modified into Enterprise-B, and the small one wasn't built yet (VOY: Flashback). Was that an AMT kit, just like the Miranda-class "USS Trial"?

3) The Malinche in DS9: For the Uniform was the small Excelsior studio model. Either it was still labeled Excelisor or it was already labeled Fredrickson (which I doubt). Does anyone know if the ship was actually relabeled to Malinche NCC-38997 (as per Encyclopedia)? I only ever saw pictures of the saucer top of the Fredrickson studio model. Might have been a pratial relabel, like Leeds/Farragut or Excalibur/Yamaguchi, and just the underside of the saucer was changed.

The Excelsior class ships seen at the end of the Way of the Warrior are in fact AMT model kits with lights in the engines they used them again for a few shots in the season 6 episode Favor the Bold a long with AMT Galaxy Class models that had a strange painted neck. By the time the Malinche was seen they were using a CGI Excelsior model.

By the time the Malinche was

 

[Rick Sternbach]

Quite so - I was basically wondering if Mike didn't spy over your shoulder and tell somebody to use NCC-71325 because "it had been on his very latest and no doubt almost final and certainly very likely to be accepted sketch of the hero ship and in any case nobody is going to tell you otherwise, right?". Did any of the sketches ever have a registry that low? (I realize most had none, but since the sleek study model on pedestal did get one of those...)

Timo Saloniemi

Hardly any of my sketches ever included a reg number or a name, though in all of the Starfleet vessels that I did draw up, I made sure that there was a big open area on the top/front to add the graphics. With the very early Runabout drawings, I added a name suggestion but no numbers, but that was about it.

Rick