Some Alien Worlds Could Have Too Much Water For Life To Exist

[Dryson]

http://www.space.com/34514-some-alien-worlds-could-have-too-much-water-for-life.html

As with everything in life, too much of a good thing can be bad — and that logic now seems to apply to alien life, too.

Since Proxima Centauri b (or just Proxima b) was discovered in August, countless imaginings as to what the small, Earth-sized planet would look like up-close have captivated the media. Is the planet truly Earth-like with mountains, oceans, lush green continents and an atmosphere in just the right proportions to support extraterrestrial life? Or is it actually a dry, barren hellhole being constantly irradiated by its star? It could go either way.

As Proxima b was only detected by its gravitational influence on Proxima Centauri — the small exoplanet's orbit causes the tiny star to wobble — we only know its mass and orbital period. But these two characteristics are exciting. Not only is Proxima b of approximate Earth-mass, it also orbits within the star's habitable zone, the region surrounding a star that is neither too hot or too cold for liquid water to exist on the surface.


Our Sun is 4.5 billion years old. Proxima Centauri is 4.85 billion years old. Proxima Centauri came into being before our Sun did meaning that the processes of the Big Bang were still taking place 350 million years after the Proxima Centauri sun was born. A lot of celestial building blocks for life must have come after Proxima Centauri was born.
If life on Earth is thought to have started around 3 billion years ago that would put Earth cooling down to allow water and life to emerge somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion years ago with the Earth cooling down for 500 million years.
The building blocks of life most likely passed through the area including Proxima b sometime around 4.5 billion years ago. Proxima b therefore might have signs of the first life taking hold in the sector in the nooks and crannies of the rocky surface.
Proxima Centauri b would have been well into its cool down period at 3.75 to 4.25 billion years ago.

 

[scotthm]

Proxima Centauri came into being before our Sun did meaning that the processes of the Big Bang were still taking place 350 million years after the Proxima Centauri sun was born.

If the universe is still expanding, when did the Big Bang stop?

The building blocks of life most likely passed through the area including Proxima b sometime around 4.5 billion years ago.

You talk about the "building blocks of life" as if it's some kind of galactic tourist.

---------------

 

[Leviathan]

...hmmm.....what about a planet with too much ethanol? We find THAT and space colonization will begin within days.

 

[velour]

On a slightly different matter ... is it possible for a species that lives and survives in a liquid environment to develop into a technologically advanced civilization?

In a liquid environment, an aquatic species can evolve into a relatively intelligent species, such as dolphins. But can it go any further than that?

I remember The Outer Limits episode "Trial by Fire". In that ep, the aliens who travelled to Earth lived in liquid, presumably water. I guess their spaceship was full of liquid.

Water is very damaging to electronic components. And water is very corrosive to many construction materials. Water messes up a lot of things. I can't imagine that an aquatic species like dolphins would be able to develop advanced technology, or even simple technology.

 

[Dryson]

On a slightly different matter ... is it possible for a species that lives and survives in a liquid environment to develop into a technologically advanced civilization?

That is a very good question. The idea that separates the sponge from the sentient mind in being able to build is the ability of the sponge to want know and strive towards knowing.

If humans hadn't wanted to know what they could use natural gas for to better their lives then millions of job s and processes would never have been created.

Wanting to know is what separates the sponge from he human mind.

In a liquid environment, an aquatic species can evolve into a relatively intelligent species, such as dolphins. But can it go any further than that?

I remember The Outer Limits episode "Trial by Fire". In that ep, the aliens who travelled to Earth lived in liquid, presumably water. I guess their spaceship was full of liquid.

Water is very damaging to electronic components. And water is very corrosive to many construction materials. Water messes up a lot of things. I can't imagine that an aquatic species like dolphins would be able to develop advanced technology, or even simple technology.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Wanting to know is what separates the sponge from he human mind.

I thought it was a predilection for wearing square pants.

 

[Tim Walker]

Response to Velour's post....

I understand that there are tool using dolphins at Shark Bay, Australia.

Dolphins have been seen using sponges to probe the sea bottom. Presumably to protect themselves from stinging creatures, as the dolphins search for food.

It is hard to see how one could develop more sophisticated technology under water. You couldn't use fire, so no metallurgy, for example.

 

[uniderth]

Well first you would need some sort of manipulator appendage. But also you have to consider that most of human technology is a result of agriculture and the change from nomad to sedentary lifestyle. I would expect something similar would have to occur for there to be a drive to develop certain technologies. Otherwise most technology is going to remain firmly in the realm of catching food.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I agree. If your tribe spends most of its time following game shoals, hunting, and gathering, it's unlikely that there are going to be any spare resources for establishing a hierarchical society that develops technology beyond its immediate needs. I suppose it's not impossible for agriculture to exist in an aquatic environment but it does seem unlikely, particularly if there are no available areas of land, reefs, or shallow water to provide stable reference points. Creating fish pens or nets from long strands of seaweed or similar might be viable but a lack of grasping limbs makes it unlikely. Dolphins are social animals and could possibly cooperate to create such structures but they have had no need to do so. Even if they did develop agriculture, I doubt that they would even develop technologies that required stone or metal. Without crop plantation, it's also unlikely that there would be a need to invent astronomy to monitor the Sun and the seasons, so the development of religion and its usurper, science, would be stymied.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I agree. If your tribe spends most of its time following game shoals, hunting, and gathering, it's unlikely that there are going to be any spare resources for establishing a hierarchical society that develops technology beyond its immediate needs. I suppose it's not impossible for agriculture to exist in an aquatic environment but it does seem unlikely, particularly if there are no available areas of land, reefs, or shallow water to provide stable reference points. Creating fish pens or nets from long strands of seaweed or similar might be viable but a lack of grasping limbs makes it unlikely. Dolphins are social animals and could possibly cooperate to create such structures but they have had no need to do so. Even if they did develop agriculture, I doubt that they would even develop technologies that required stone or metal. Without crop plantation, it's also unlikely that there would be a need to invent astronomy to monitor the Sun and the seasons, so the development of religion and its usurper, science, would be stymied.

You're presupposing development like humans, though, which are land based apes. An aquatic being will have a different approach all together starting with their life being in 3 dimensions (they can swim). Their focus for development need not be technological but rather communicative and artistic, for instance, instead of tribal and acquisitive?

 

[MacLeod]

By life are we talking down to the microbial level?

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Water is very damaging to electronic components. And water is very corrosive to many construction materials. Water messes up a lot of things. I can't imagine that an aquatic species like dolphins would be able to develop advanced technology, or even simple technology.

Just because the apes that evolved on Earth chose to harness and master lightning as the basis of most of their technology, that doesn't mean other alien life would follow suit if they were so inclined to become technologically savvy at all. (Considering only one species out of five billion+ species that have ever existed on Earth bothered to develop it, it's not exactly the evolutionary norm.)

 

[Dryson]

Just because the apes that evolved on Earth chose to harness and master lightning as the basis of most of their technology, that doesn't mean other alien life would follow suit if they were so inclined to become technologically savvy at all. (Considering only one species out of five billion+ species that have ever existed on Earth bothered to develop it, it's not exactly the evolutionary norm.)

Only certain species that are able to fully use the dexterity of their limbs in all adaptable environments would significantly evolve to full sentient beings.

Take for example the dolphin. The dolphin is a highly intelligent mammal that has been known to use rocks to break apart shells as well as building small mounds of rock as location markers to visually record where they have been, a road map if you will.

Humans can do the same thing but unlike the human the dolphin is not able to climb the side of a mountain or raise a hammer to build a structure for shelter.

The difference that defines sentient life is the ability to use the physical dexterity of the hands and feet to position objects that open up new thought processes that then equate to the hands positioning the objects in the best location to complete the puzzle that the human is trying to complete.

 

[sojourner]

The difference that defines sentient life is the ability to use the physical dexterity of the hands and feet to position objects that open up new thought processes that then equate to the hands positioning the objects in the best location to complete the puzzle that the human is trying to complete.

Not even close.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Only certain species that are able to fully use the dexterity of their limbs in all adaptable environments would significantly evolve to full sentient beings.

Then why hasn't every other species capable of the same thing developed advanced technology? Nevermind the species which lack opposable thumbs that are still capable of finally manipulating things.

Sorry, but you've fallen into the trap that most bad sci-fi writers (and heck, even non-fiction writers) fall into.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

@Dryson seems to misunderstand the meaning of "sentient". It simply means the ability to feel, experience or perceive things. It is only one component of what is usually referred to as the mind.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I suppose it's not impossible for agriculture to exist in an aquatic environment but it does seem unlikely, particularly if there are no available areas of land, reefs, or shallow water to provide stable reference points.

This all makes aquatic life very difficult for us to relate to.

It has little uses for the gizmos of our early civilisation. They can't start a fire. They have little use for the wheel. They have no use for agriculture unless they are in shallow water or are into depths. Building simple structures under water is also not exactly a lucrative business. Their daily needs and comforts are so different from ours that we can hardly project what the first steps of an aquatic civilisation might be. I mean, we're terrible at recognising our own ones as such, if we saw dolphins using such it would take a pack of scientists to notice.

Dolphins in particular don't make relating easier. With their revamped hearing system, very suitable for underwater life, they have totally superseded their need to ever invent the sonar, and also should have drastically affected their way of communicating. Intelligent extraterrestrial aquatic life may be similar, and communication alone can alter how a civilisation works. Not that it would make much difference in the end – living underwater is the big game-changer. But if dolphins were talking – and they seem to be communicating at least some non-trivial things to each other – we would take a lot of time to notice.

Point being – we won't even necessarily recognise an early aquatic alien civilisation as such. We would be so bad at it that it almost gives me certain fringe ideas. I don't think we should mistake our inability to relate for an inability of theirs to make one, and take it forward.

Dolphins are close to the top of the food chain, face sharks as the only predator, and don't exactly need tools for hunting and protection. If their alien counterparts are different in that regard, they might be forging out new tools by the day. Necessity will do wonders.

They will hit trouble when they start needing fire and electricity. But the latter is not exactly a problem, because by the time you need it, your civilisation is already ahead enough to be able to go through all the trouble – don't tell me a 19th century handed exodolphin can't whip up a pocket of air, or keep their contraption above water. No, on the contrary, they would have already invented air storage devices to stay longer away from the surface.

As for fire, alien geology may have given them replacements. Hotter hydrothermal vents, Uranium richer in ²³⁵U, more volcanic activity, or natural pockets of oxygen in underwater mountains. And they can still raise fuel to the surface, dry it and set it on fire.

Not easy, but not unthinkable. Lack of limbs is a bigger obstacle.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Even with four limbs and opposable digits on two of those limbs, it took homo sapiens something like 200,000 years to invent agriculture. Incidentally, an earlier "aquatic ape" phase in our development has been proposed but it's not generally accepted. It supposedly explains some of the major divergences in our physiology from other great apes such as more extensive subcutaneous fat layer, nose shape, lack of hair, hair direction patterns, reduced sense of smell, and larger brain size. I've always been attracted to the hypothesis but I understand why paleoanthropologists tend to dismiss it.

 

[Dryson]

This all makes aquatic life very difficult for us to relate to.

It has little uses for the gizmos of our early civilisation. They can't start a fire. They have little use for the wheel. They have no use for agriculture unless they are in shallow water or are into depths. Building simple structures under water is also not exactly a lucrative business. Their daily needs and comforts are so different from ours that we can hardly project what the first steps of an aquatic civilisation might be. I mean, we're terrible at recognising our own ones as such, if we saw dolphins using such it would take a pack of scientists to notice.

Dolphins in particular don't make relating easier. With their revamped hearing system, very suitable for underwater life, they have totally superseded their need to ever invent the sonar, and also should have drastically affected their way of communicating. Intelligent extraterrestrial aquatic life may be similar, and communication alone can alter how a civilisation works. Not that it would make much difference in the end – living underwater is the big game-changer. But if dolphins were talking – and they seem to be communicating at least some non-trivial things to each other – we would take a lot of time to notice.

Point being – we won't even necessarily recognise an early aquatic alien civilisation as such. We would be so bad at it that it almost gives me certain fringe ideas. I don't think we should mistake our inability to relate for an inability of theirs to make one, and take it forward.

Dolphins are close to the top of the food chain, face sharks as the only predator, and don't exactly need tools for hunting and protection. If their alien counterparts are different in that regard, they might be forging out new tools by the day. Necessity will do wonders.

They will hit trouble when they start needing fire and electricity. But the latter is not exactly a problem, because by the time you need it, your civilisation is already ahead enough to be able to go through all the trouble – don't tell me a 19th century handed exodolphin can't whip up a pocket of air, or keep their contraption above water. No, on the contrary, they would have already invented air storage devices to stay longer away from the surface.

As for fire, alien geology may have given them replacements. Hotter hydrothermal vents, Uranium richer in ²³⁵U, more volcanic activity, or natural pockets of oxygen in underwater mountains. And they can still raise fuel to the surface, dry it and set it on fire.

Not easy, but not unthinkable. Lack of limbs is a bigger obstacle.

It has little uses for the gizmos of our early civilization. They can't start a fire. They have little use for the wheel. They have no use for agriculture unless they are in shallow water or are into depths. Building simple structures under water is also not exactly a lucrative business.

Starting a fire...meant to keep humans warm that they learned from striking two pieces of flint together to create a spark from. Necessity in keeping warm.

The wheel was designed to take the comforts of home with out ancestors and move commodities easier over the landscape at a faster rate.

Dolphins really don't have need for more lucrative fixtures such as housing because they can out swim the predators chasing them unlike humans who needed defenses to keep early predators out.

We might not see human life on planets that are covered mostly in water but I would expect life similar to dolphins and sharks to exist.

If the life on a water world could exist both in water and out of water with one being its dominate habitat then perhaps a water world could sustain human like life.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Even with four limbs and opposable digits on two of those limbs, it took homo sapiens something like 200,000 years to invent agriculture.

True. It takes long, it's unlikely and being under water makes it even more so. Trust me, I know – my crew constantly makes me go up for air and Ringo likes to put plot holes in my hull during lunch break. I have eight already.

But unless the obstacles are insurmountable (lack of limbs would qualify for insurmountable), the amount of stars and time out there takes care of the long and the unlikely. So long as there are enough intelligent aquatic life forms in the universe, some would find their way into space. There's no reason to believe there aren't many of them – we have one on our planet, so initial assumption should be roughly the same number of exodolphins and exoapes.