So you CAN change time? (spoiler)

[RobertScorpio]

Provided the movie changes the timeline, as did McCoy in CITY, for example, does this mean spock's mantra that you can not change time look silly?

In fact, I just watched LOST and even they kept saying that since it already happened, no matter how hard you try, you will never succeed or you would have already...

So, is the simple answer that when they 'change time' they actually create another stream off of the main river. So, while you may not change time, you can create another universe???

My brain is a pretzel now...

Rob

 

[PluckyNinja]

It may seem like you have changed time because you will exist in the new universe. Thats my understanding anyway.

 

[RobertScorpio]

It may seem like you have changed time because you will exist in the new universe. Thats my understanding anyway.

Yeah..I see it like that too. But I wonder, if back in the 60s when Trek was written, if that was what meant Spock to mean. Or did they literally think you could not change time?

Rob

 

[Franklin]

As I understand it (knowledge limited to shows on the History Channel and articles in popular science magazines), if you go back in time and change something -- prevent JFK from being assassinated is the cliche example -- then go back to your time, you'll find you've changed nothing in your timeline. So, you can go back to your time. And, nothing has changed.
But, if you travel forward within in the timeline you just created, you'll see the consequences of what you did. But once you move around in that timeline, you can't go back to your original one. If you keep travelling, you'll just keep creating timelines.
If I have that at all right, that's the part that causes my head to explode. The idea of infinite universes that encompass all possibilities of all events? BOOOOOOM!

 

[Semah]

Star Trek's never really been consistent with its time travel rules. It just uses whatever the plot calls for, be it time being changeable, predestination paradox or parallel universe creation.

 

[xortex]

That's why that kid kept screaming 'BOGG!!' in 'Voyagers'.

 

[Ryan8bit]

What I don't get is why Nero should want to change the timeline at all if this is how it works. It won't benefit him in any personal relationships, and it won't undo anything that has been done to him. Add to that, why would Spock go back to try and stop him if it didn't even affect his timeline?

Star Trek may have had differing methods of time travel, but none as seemingly pointless as this one.

 

[uniderth]

Did McCoy change the timeline? It seemed to me that by the end of the episdoe nothing had been changed.

 

[Photoman15]

Did McCoy change the timeline? It seemed to me that by the end of the episdoe nothing had been changed.

Yes he did. Right after he went back, the Enterprise was no longer in orbit because Starfleet never existed (at least as we know it).
When Kirk & Spock stopped him from doing what he did to change it (saving Edith Keeler), the timeline reverted back.

 

[Alex1939]

Star Trek may have had differing methods of time travel, but none as seemingly pointless as this one.

Wow, that summed up one of my bigger fears for the film well.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

What I don't get is why Nero should want to change the timeline at all if this is how it works. It won't benefit him in any personal relationships, and it won't undo anything that has been done to him. Add to that, why would Spock go back to try and stop him if it didn't even affect his timeline?

Star Trek may have had differing methods of time travel, but none as seemingly pointless as this one.

There are numerous time travel stories in SF where someone changes time to benefit their race, even knowing that they themselves won't be able to experience the new, better situation. Technically, if you did manage to change time, whether in a single timeline universe or a multi-verse, you should blink out of existence upon success, because the you there at that time would either not exist at all (single universe that had been changed), or would be existing in a universe it was impossible for you to be in (multi-verse with a new timeline just created which does not include you, or includes an alternate version of you native to that timeline). Time travel stories usually bend the rules a great deal in order to imagine that the protagonist can still exist, or retain memories of things before the change, etc.

 

[jchen012]

I believe Data once said that all possible timelines that may occur, do occur. Even if Nero does go back in time and destroys the Kelvin, I believe he just stays there and gets to see the timeline unfold the way he wanted, regardless if he already lived through a different timeline. Maybe it's his way of getting a second chance?

 

[Ryan8bit]

There are numerous time travel stories in SF where someone changes time to benefit their race, even knowing that they themselves won't be able to experience the new, better situation.

Yes, altruism in time travel. That I can accept, however I don't think altruism will be a trait of Nero.

Also never mind that his altruism would be for naught since the other timeline would exist in some fashion no matter what he did according to this supposed theory.

Technically, if you did manage to change time, whether in a single timeline universe or a multi-verse, you should blink out of existence upon success, because the you there at that time would either not exist at all (single universe that had been changed), or would be existing in a universe it was impossible for you to be in (multi-verse with a new timeline just created which does not include you, or includes an alternate version of you native to that timeline). Time travel stories usually bend the rules a great deal in order to imagine that the protagonist can still exist, or retain memories of things before the change, etc.

I don't think your technical explanation really makes all that much sense. If you are able to change time, it doesn't necessarily imply that you will all of a sudden cease to exist. The whole idea behind the multiple worlds theory is to get around the idea of such a paradox. If you go back in time and kill your grandpa, you (the killer) still exist in this timeline, but another version of yourself is never born. The other timeline that you came from still exists, but you can never go back there. According to that timeline you simply ceased to exist.

I don't see the logic of why you'd just vanish from a new timeline.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Yes, altruism in time travel. That I can accept, however I don't think altruism will be a trait of Nero.

On the contrary. Having read the first prequel comic Countdown 1, I can easily see altruism as a trait of Nero.

But it's true, we don't know if this altruism will survive until the events of the prequels end and the events of the movie begin.

 

[cooleddie74]

It may seem like you have changed time because you will exist in the new universe. Thats my understanding anyway.

Yeah. Quantum mechanics says you will continue to exist and live out your life...but in a new temporal events sequence/"universe" created by changing the events in another/"the original" one.

 

[shapeshifter]

Uh, what's the topic?

Lets try this. I don't remember Spock saying that but assuming he did, all the Trek episodes whose drama was based on the importance of the timeline being restored would seem to contradict Spock's mantra.

Every TT episode of Trek wherein the plot was about restoring things or keeping them from being changed at all, were wrong and this movie represents the first time its actually been portrayed correctly, correct?

All those past TT episodes were fun explorations of the TT device but not realistic because the true consequences, (new, separate timelines created) were hardly, if ever, shown.

So Spock was correct but all the TT episodes were not.

It's fair to say Nero understood all this and TT'ed with the explicit intent of creating a new timeline in which events may align with his desires, but the question of why Spock would follow, remains.

I think I made sense, not sure... Am I in the ballpark?

 

[Ryan8bit]

Yes, altruism in time travel. That I can accept, however I don't think altruism will be a trait of Nero.

On the contrary. Having read the first prequel comic Countdown 1, I can easily see altruism as a trait of Nero.

But it's true, we don't know if this altruism will survive until the events of the prequels end and the events of the movie begin.

You probably know a lot more than I do concerning comics, but I'm just guessing that Nero in this movie will be a disgruntled person hellbent on destruction and that he's gone mad. It's just a recurring theme in all Star Trek movies that have a villain. The villains always want some sort of revenge against people who wronged them, or a return to some sort of solace, and end up destroying themselves over it. They're always self-centered and don't care who they hurt so long as they can fulfill their goal. Maybe Nero will be different, but I doubt it.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Yes, altruism in time travel. That I can accept, however I don't think altruism will be a trait of Nero.

On the contrary. Having read the first prequel comic Countdown 1, I can easily see altruism as a trait of Nero.

But it's true, we don't know if this altruism will survive until the events of the prequels end and the events of the movie begin.

You probably know a lot more than I do concerning comics, but I'm just guessing that Nero in this movie will be a disgruntled person hellbent on destruction and that he's gone mad. It's just a recurring theme in all Star Trek movies that have a villain. The villains always want some sort of revenge against people who wronged them, or a return to some sort of solace, and end up destroying themselves over it. They're always self-centered and don't care who they hurt so long as they can fulfill their goal. Maybe Nero will be different, but I doubt it.

Who knows.
The storyline of these comics is also written by the writers of the movie, so maybe this time we will get a better, less one dimensional villain.

It seems that way so far.

 

[gastrof]

Considering the example we've been given in CITY, we have to assume that in the TREK universe, you CAN change the past, and not create a new universe as a result.

That's why restoring history to its right course has been so important.

Nero's efforts will change the timeline, and alter SOME of what we know of TREK universe history. He won't manage to change as much as he wanted, tho', thanks to Spock.


EDIT:
As a side point, could I ask where and when Spock supposedly voiced the idea "you can't change the past"? Having participated in CITY and also in TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY, he certainly knew that wasn't true, that the past CAN be changed.

 

[M'Sharak]

Provided the movie changes the timeline, as did McCoy in CITY, for example, does this mean spock's mantra that you can not change time look silly?
...

***

Uh, what's the topic?

Lets try this. I don't remember Spock saying that but...

...

EDIT:
As a side point, could I ask where and when Spock supposedly voiced the idea "you can't change the past"? Having participated in CITY and also in TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY, he certainly knew that wasn't true, that the past CAN be changed.

I've been kind of hoping Rob would come back and explain what he meant there, to be honest. I can't think of where Spock said that, either -- or, if he did, it certainly wasn't said so many times or so often that it could be considered a mantra.