So when Riker was transporter twinned..
- Thread starter biotech
- Start date
What makes you think he hasn't?biotech said:
Good Will Riker said:
Since duplicating a transporter clone of yourself is physically impossible, so is the duplication of one's own soul.
There is only one soul per individual.
So, end of story.
You have seen the episode we are talking about right?
Belar said:
What makes you think he hasn't?biotech said:
Good Will Riker said:
Since duplicating a transporter clone of yourself is physically impossible, so is the duplication of one's own soul.
There is only one soul per individual.
So, end of story.
You have seen the episode we are talking about right?
the part where he says a transporter clone is impossible
Well that's because we don't have transporter technology in real life. But if we did?
As I understand it, the transporter isn't "transporting" you anywhere in the strict sense of the word. Your atoms are disassembled and then elsewhere an identical pattern of atoms is formed. So everytime someone is beamed, it's actually a duplicate while the original person ceases to be.
If I were in the Trek universe, I'd stick to shuttles, too.
And does Star Trek insist on souls really existing?
If I were in the Trek universe, I'd stick to shuttles, too.
And does Star Trek insist on souls really existing?
...But there's nothing there about rules against duplicating katras.
Anyway, the Trek folks who firmly believe in these soul things like katra or pagh are also capable of physically verifying the presence of said soul. Vulcans stick fingers in your face, Bajorans pinch your ear. Obviously, such techniques have long since verified that transporters preserve these soul things, or else Vulcans or Bajorans wouldn't use transporters.
It isn't a long hop from there to saying that transporters that copy bodies will also copy souls. If Riker had been Vulcan or Bajoran, we'd have little or no ambiguity here... But Ben Sisko also apparently had an earlobe-accessible pagh for Kai Opaka to grope, so perhaps a skilled Bajoran could have done soul-survival analysis on Will and Tom Riker, too.
I wonder if tricorders can't do the same sort of soul-searching that Vulcan or Bajoran fingers can...?
Timo Saloniemi
Anyway, the Trek folks who firmly believe in these soul things like katra or pagh are also capable of physically verifying the presence of said soul. Vulcans stick fingers in your face, Bajorans pinch your ear. Obviously, such techniques have long since verified that transporters preserve these soul things, or else Vulcans or Bajorans wouldn't use transporters.
It isn't a long hop from there to saying that transporters that copy bodies will also copy souls. If Riker had been Vulcan or Bajoran, we'd have little or no ambiguity here... But Ben Sisko also apparently had an earlobe-accessible pagh for Kai Opaka to grope, so perhaps a skilled Bajoran could have done soul-survival analysis on Will and Tom Riker, too.
I wonder if tricorders can't do the same sort of soul-searching that Vulcan or Bajoran fingers can...?
Timo Saloniemi
I'll bet it required some soul searching to arrive at this decision.
It is logical to view the "soul" as part of the electrical pattern of the brain rather than some wispy ether dwelling inside the body. If that is the case, since the transporter doesn't degrade your memories or cognitive functions, one's metaphysical construct, or soul, would arrive intact.
I wonder. If your arm were severed by a tragic accident, but swift medical attention were able to re-attach it, and to reattach it so well that there was almost no period of physical therapy needed and there were no scars or weaknesses or other evidence of where it had been severed, would you say that you had been destroyed and a duplicate been created in your place?Laren said:
As I understand it, the transporter isn't "transporting" you anywhere in the strict sense of the word. Your atoms are disassembled and then elsewhere an identical pattern of atoms is formed. So everytime someone is beamed, it's actually a duplicate while the original person ceases to be.
If I were in the Trek universe, I'd stick to shuttles, too.
Nebusj said:
I wonder. If your arm were severed by a tragic accident, but swift medical attention were able to re-attach it, and to reattach it so well that there was almost no period of physical therapy needed and there were no scars or weaknesses or other evidence of where it had been severed, would you say that you had been destroyed and a duplicate been created in your place?Laren said:
As I understand it, the transporter isn't "transporting" you anywhere in the strict sense of the word. Your atoms are disassembled and then elsewhere an identical pattern of atoms is formed. So everytime someone is beamed, it's actually a duplicate while the original person ceases to be.
If I were in the Trek universe, I'd stick to shuttles, too.
No. It would still be the same arm. But some years ago I watched a piece on television about a scientific experiment where they "beamed" a photon, if I recall correctly. They explained that they made a photon disappear in one place and then created a different one in another place. It was still a photon, but it wasn't the same. So beaming would mean that a person with the exact same memories would be created, but it wouldn't be made of the same atoms. If I stepped onto a transporter platform I would die and someone who looked like me and had my memories would live on until the next transport. Not quite the same. (I hope I remembered that documentary right.)
It does seem to boil down to metaphysics. Is a difference that makes no difference still a difference?
It's impossible to tell whether atoms A and B of a given element are "same" or "different", in any practical sense. Indeed, if we get so impractical as to discover differences between A and B, we have to admit that A is going to be different from A most of the time, too. The atoms making up "me" now are not the same as the ones that made up "me" when I started typing this. Even the molecules or cells, vast structures when compared to atoms, come and go in and out of my body during my so-called life.
Add to this that there is no good consensus on the line separating life from death today, and that the issue is becoming more muddled by the day. Certainly the issue of defining one's physical identity begins to look less and less relevant here, with the question of one's soul relegated to even greater insignificance in the process.
Timo Saloniemi
It's impossible to tell whether atoms A and B of a given element are "same" or "different", in any practical sense. Indeed, if we get so impractical as to discover differences between A and B, we have to admit that A is going to be different from A most of the time, too. The atoms making up "me" now are not the same as the ones that made up "me" when I started typing this. Even the molecules or cells, vast structures when compared to atoms, come and go in and out of my body during my so-called life.
Add to this that there is no good consensus on the line separating life from death today, and that the issue is becoming more muddled by the day. Certainly the issue of defining one's physical identity begins to look less and less relevant here, with the question of one's soul relegated to even greater insignificance in the process.
Timo Saloniemi
Quite interesting points you're raising. Not that I think I know the answers or anything...
What is missing for me during the process of beaming would be a seamless transition. The atoms in my body might change every moment I exist, but I'd say that the "old me" is kinda flowing into the "new me" without an abrupt interruption/ discontinuation.
I don't actually believe in the concept of a soul that exists seperately from the body, so I have no idea how that one could relate to the transporter.
God would have given Tom a new soul. God would not permit a sentient creature to exist without a soul and the chance to share in His love.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
What about Voyagers Tuvix? was the souls of both of them fused together somehow? just another thought.
I believe that in Trek the copying of a soul is as easy as copying solid matter, the truth is we dont know what a soul is actually made of even if we did have souls so how can we judge whether a transporter can copy a soul or not? perhaps the body was copied and it is the physical body that creates a soul, so as soon as the body was created nature took over and issued a soul to that physical being.
Perhaps when the new soul was issued to the copied Riker the soul was immediately issued itself with the memories of the real Riker and thus took on his identity, the new soul didnt have the luxury of starting out fresh like a baby with no memories but instead was overwhelmed by the memories of Will Riker and thus became a copy in that sense. So although they are seperate souls the new soul is working from the experiences given to it by Will Rikers life.
I believe that in Trek the copying of a soul is as easy as copying solid matter, the truth is we dont know what a soul is actually made of even if we did have souls so how can we judge whether a transporter can copy a soul or not? perhaps the body was copied and it is the physical body that creates a soul, so as soon as the body was created nature took over and issued a soul to that physical being.
Perhaps when the new soul was issued to the copied Riker the soul was immediately issued itself with the memories of the real Riker and thus took on his identity, the new soul didnt have the luxury of starting out fresh like a baby with no memories but instead was overwhelmed by the memories of Will Riker and thus became a copy in that sense. So although they are seperate souls the new soul is working from the experiences given to it by Will Rikers life.
