So when Riker was transporter twinned..
- Thread starter biotech
- Start date
Nice one!So what your saying is that Will Riker has a soul but Tom Riker hasn't got one. If you believe in the soul and the idea of Heaven and Hell (which I do but not religiously) then that'd pretty much be a kick in the balls for Tom as when he dies there's nothing more left of him to go anywhere.
It's hard to apply our knowledge and concept of space-time physics to the concept of a soul. Who is to say a soul can't be in simultaneous places in the space-time continuum at once. William and Thomas could share the same soul. It's like multi-tasking. 
Discussing souls and other theological subjects is not what this forum is about. Let’s limit our discussions to TNG. Thanks.
edit to add: OK, I’ve reopened this after locking it. I do not want a religious debate opening up in this forum. If this is discussed in relation to TNG OK, but if this gets into a shoving match about whether or not souls exist or about religion in general, it gets locked again and stays locked.
Dorothy_Zbornak said:
It's hard to apply our knowledge and concept of space-time physics to the concept of a soul. Who is to say a soul can't be in simultaneous places in the space-time continuum at once. William and Thomas could share the same soul. It's like multi-tasking.
Assuming a non religious generic afterlife, supposing Tom dies first, his soul would be in the afterlife, so does Will still have the same soul then?
What happens when Will dies? Does Will's soul also go to the afterlife, or if there is only one, will it already be there as Tom?
If they got half a soul each after the split, then maybe they would restore back over time into full but slightly different souls.
I would say trying to figure out the physics of transportation duplication and souls is like trying to hammer down with any certainly just when will the Rabbit ever get some Trix.
The concept of the soul in religion is at least as theoretical if not more than that of transporter mechanics.
The concept of the soul in religion is at least as theoretical if not more than that of transporter mechanics.
Im more concerned with the concept of the soul in sci fi, like B5 with the soul hunters, or the role it plays in Buffy and Angel.
No matter what you think of the concept of a soul in life, in sci fi, its just something you take for granted, like warp and teleporting.
No matter what you think of the concept of a soul in life, in sci fi, its just something you take for granted, like warp and teleporting.
MeanJoePhaser
Admiral
Do twins have the same soul?
Maybe Thomas has the soul and Riker is a souless creep.
Actually, it goes with that transporter-kills-people-and-makes-a-copy argument. Maybe Riker's soul died the first time he ever transported.
Maybe Thomas has the soul and Riker is a souless creep.
Actually, it goes with that transporter-kills-people-and-makes-a-copy argument. Maybe Riker's soul died the first time he ever transported.
The problem with this all was when they had that episode where they fixed something in the person's pattern stored in the transporter buffer. If a person's pattern is stored in the buffer, you can make all the copies of them you want.
In fact, carried to the nth degree, mankind has achieved immortality with the transporter. If someone dies, then whoosh, you simply bring them back via their last stored pattern in the transporter buffer.
In fact, if you really wanted to get silly, you could do daily backups of each person on the ship therefore always insuring they have a current copy of themselves in case they accidently wore red on their last transport.
In fact, carried to the nth degree, mankind has achieved immortality with the transporter. If someone dies, then whoosh, you simply bring them back via their last stored pattern in the transporter buffer.
In fact, if you really wanted to get silly, you could do daily backups of each person on the ship therefore always insuring they have a current copy of themselves in case they accidently wore red on their last transport.
The thing I can never get is they have all this complicated machinery just under the floor of the transporter room so they can analysise exactly where all your atoms are before you beam down, yet when you beam up, or a complete stranger beams up, that same machine is 10,000 miles away.
Its a pretty good machine that can work out where all your atoms are, in under a second, then take them appart from 10,000 miles away, often while the ship is being hit by weapons fire.
I mean if I knock my pc it ruins the disk its burning.
Plus Barcley starts to see things after 15 seconds in the transporter buffer, yet Scotty was in there for 75 years without experiencing a thing.
Its a pretty good machine that can work out where all your atoms are, in under a second, then take them appart from 10,000 miles away, often while the ship is being hit by weapons fire.
I mean if I knock my pc it ruins the disk its burning.
Plus Barcley starts to see things after 15 seconds in the transporter buffer, yet Scotty was in there for 75 years without experiencing a thing.
The whole soul question underpins a lot of sci-fi concepts.
Take time travel, does a person who goes back in time, share a soul with his past self? People are said to change over time, their fundamental beliefs, the way they percieve the universe, and how they interact with it. Could such change be possible if a soul is immutable? Otherwise the man I am wouldn't be equable to my soul, which mean that my behaviour in life would have no bearing on my generic non specific afterlife. Oops, getting to close to religion there so I'll pause that line of thought.
But then there are quantum realities, episodes like Parallels, where people's alternates are explored. Does Worf from one universe share the same soul as Worf from another. If the only difference between the realities is the length of Worf's ponytail, then they could be said to be the same person. Same person = same soul surely. Where do you draw the line between small changes in reality and major changes. The personalities of Regent Worf and Lieutenant Commander Worf were wildly different. Different souls? Different aspect of the same soul?
If the soul truly is infinite, then one soul's aspects can vary from dimension to dimension, then it isn't too much of a stretch for Tom and Will to share the same soul, after all, there are an infinite number of Rikers sharing the same soul.
It's a question that can really only be answered by defining the soul to scientific levels of scrutiny. I'll give the Pope a call and get back to you on that...
Take time travel, does a person who goes back in time, share a soul with his past self? People are said to change over time, their fundamental beliefs, the way they percieve the universe, and how they interact with it. Could such change be possible if a soul is immutable? Otherwise the man I am wouldn't be equable to my soul, which mean that my behaviour in life would have no bearing on my generic non specific afterlife. Oops, getting to close to religion there so I'll pause that line of thought.
But then there are quantum realities, episodes like Parallels, where people's alternates are explored. Does Worf from one universe share the same soul as Worf from another. If the only difference between the realities is the length of Worf's ponytail, then they could be said to be the same person. Same person = same soul surely. Where do you draw the line between small changes in reality and major changes. The personalities of Regent Worf and Lieutenant Commander Worf were wildly different. Different souls? Different aspect of the same soul?
If the soul truly is infinite, then one soul's aspects can vary from dimension to dimension, then it isn't too much of a stretch for Tom and Will to share the same soul, after all, there are an infinite number of Rikers sharing the same soul.
It's a question that can really only be answered by defining the soul to scientific levels of scrutiny. I'll give the Pope a call and get back to you on that...
Good Will Riker
Admiral
Since duplicating a transporter clone of yourself is physically impossible, so is the duplication of one's own soul.
There is only one soul per individual.
So, end of story.
There is only one soul per individual.
So, end of story.
biotech said:
Dorothy_Zbornak said:
It's hard to apply our knowledge and concept of space-time physics to the concept of a soul. Who is to say a soul can't be in simultaneous places in the space-time continuum at once. William and Thomas could share the same soul. It's like multi-tasking.
Assuming a non religious generic afterlife, supposing Tom dies first, his soul would be in the afterlife, so does Will still have the same soul then?
What happens when Will dies? Does Will's soul also go to the afterlife, or if there is only one, will it already be there as Tom?
That's my take on it--in the afterlife/interlife, the two souls would reconcile their experiences as one.
