So what was wrong about using Q power?
- Thread starter YARN
- Start date
The Q continuum was a race that had these "powers" inherent to them, it's a part of their nature. As such, they are pretty familiar with the effects of their actions on others. But Riker (or any other human) would be truly an infant to such a race. Humans have such a limited perception of cause and effect of our actions and the long-term results, that we could be extremely dangerous using Q powers even with the best of intentions. It isn't wise to meddle in things beyond our understanding.
...Psychologically, it apparently still was possible to keep Riker from using his powers if Picard issued stern commands at this very early stage. But if Riker were allowed to do just one stunt that made the world a better place, Picard and the rest of mankind would have to abandon all hope of ever controlling him again.
Better let that one child die than have Riker erase an entire species next, Kevin Uxbridge style. From Picard's POV, that is.
Timo Saloniemi
Better let that one child die than have Riker erase an entire species next, Kevin Uxbridge style. From Picard's POV, that is.
Timo Saloniemi
See Gary Mitchell
YARN
Fleet Captain
There is a difference between being judicious/cautious in the use of new power and agreeing not to use that power (for good or ill) altogether. Moreover, if one had to know to a certainty the long-term effects of any given action, we would be paralyzed. Consider, the typical time-loop/prediction conundrum such as in All Good Things - the captain worries about what to do since Q tells him he will destroy humanity - in the end everyone agrees that they have no choice but to act anyhow since it might be inaction which has negative consequences.
The Boy Who Cried Worf said:
Riker was only given "genie" type powers. His personality was intact. Gary Mitchell's intellect was expanding at an exponential rate in ways which effected his normal personality. When he was stunned (eyes no longer silver) he would be normal for a minute and return to an empathetic understanding of his colleagues before his powers kicked back in.
Absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. It's hubris to think that a mortal could control the power of a god.
In a better world, perhaps Riker could have been cut off at a certain point - just before his actions skewed too far toward the mad...but who would have been able to stop him? Not Picard, or the entire Federation. Just Q, and he'd be too busy laughing his supercelestial ass off.
And the Continuum are to enigmatic to bet on.
Frightening.
In a better world, perhaps Riker could have been cut off at a certain point - just before his actions skewed too far toward the mad...but who would have been able to stop him? Not Picard, or the entire Federation. Just Q, and he'd be too busy laughing his supercelestial ass off.
And the Continuum are to enigmatic to bet on.
Frightening.
I found the whole situation silly. It felt like Picard's narrow idea of humanity got in the way of Riker's new power. If Riker's worst mistake in his time as a Q was to make Wesley skip his dorkager years, then I don't see what the issue was.
YARN
Fleet Captain
And yet a Starfleet Captain has powers making him indistinguishable from a God for people who lived only a few hundred years ago.
The "innate human curiosity" that Trek is always banging on about is essentially a quest for more and more power.
If Riker is a man of character then his conscience would be his rudder.
They used to say, if man could fly, he'd have wings. But he did fly; he discovered he had to. Do you wish that the first Apollo mission hadn't reached the moon, or that we hadn't gone on to Mars and then to the nearest star? That's like saying you wish that you still operated with scalpels and sewed your patients up with catgut, like your great, great, great-grandfather used to do ... Dr. McCoy is right in pointing out the enormous danger potential in any contact with life and intelligence as fantastically advanced as this. But I must point out that the possibilities -- the potential for knowledge and advancement is equally great. Risk -- risk is our business.
Like I said, I think that's hubris. The character of a man is still no greater than the physical limits of a man. Everyone has their breaking point - everyone. It's horrific but...
The Mintaken saw "the Picard" and lost his mind nearly became a murderer. Picard was brutalized until he literally saw "four lights." Neither of these cases *anywhere near approached* the *infinite* stresses of omnipotence and omniscience.
Picard was the first to tell Q "what a piece of work is man" and likened him to a god, but at the same time he recognized man's current mortal limits.
EDIT: I want to be clear. Man's mission is to explore - to learn who he is and grow ever greater - but the insane don't grow.
It's like losing your individuality to the exponentially greater Borg Collective. You just ramble and eat to feed your ramblings. The overly powerful are wielded by their power, not the reverse.
And Riker, Gary Mitchell: they were drunk with power but the moral of the story was that they weren't unusual for being so, having been given *too much* of it. They're not bad eggs ruining it for the rest of us, anymore than Adam and Eve acted inhumanly when they showed curiosity. They acted as any broken, insane mortal would have.
Not that immortals necessarily know better either: look at Lucifer. Wow, this is going to sound really religious, but it goes back to the first commandment. Thou shalt have no other god before me. No mortal, no one, can handle being a god but God. Humans can't be Q any more than amoebas should have voting rights.
The Mintaken saw "the Picard" and lost his mind nearly became a murderer. Picard was brutalized until he literally saw "four lights." Neither of these cases *anywhere near approached* the *infinite* stresses of omnipotence and omniscience.
Picard was the first to tell Q "what a piece of work is man" and likened him to a god, but at the same time he recognized man's current mortal limits.
EDIT: I want to be clear. Man's mission is to explore - to learn who he is and grow ever greater - but the insane don't grow.
It's like losing your individuality to the exponentially greater Borg Collective. You just ramble and eat to feed your ramblings. The overly powerful are wielded by their power, not the reverse.
And Riker, Gary Mitchell: they were drunk with power but the moral of the story was that they weren't unusual for being so, having been given *too much* of it. They're not bad eggs ruining it for the rest of us, anymore than Adam and Eve acted inhumanly when they showed curiosity. They acted as any broken, insane mortal would have.
Not that immortals necessarily know better either: look at Lucifer. Wow, this is going to sound really religious, but it goes back to the first commandment. Thou shalt have no other god before me. No mortal, no one, can handle being a god but God. Humans can't be Q any more than amoebas should have voting rights.
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YARN
Fleet Captain
And I think that yours is an overcautiousness masquerading as self-evident piety.
What does this even mean?
Riker with Q powers has different physical limits - perhaps his character, therefore, is also potentially more expansive? * Q-Riker might be less motivated by greed, for he can have anything he wants. * Q-Riker cannot be motivated by fear for he invulnerable. * Q-Riker cannot be coerced by torture (unlike Picard) for he can remove himself from the hands of any captor.
This is precisely my point -- Starfleet still takes risks in exploration as the seek greater knowledge of (and thereby power over) the universe.
Fears about "power" resulted in rules like the Prime Directive, but did not result in Starfleet simply abandoning all contact and observation of alien races.
Q told humanity on more than one occasion to hang it up and to go home - that humans were not morally evolved enough to engage in exploration, that they were not ready for the technical challenges, that to do otherwise is hubris. They pressed on anyway.
Since neither one of us has such powers we cannot claim that it results in "infinite" psychological stress. Being tormented by a god might produce infinite psychological stress, but being a God? Riker appeared to be psychologically the same person with a little initial douchiness that comes with the intoxicating rush of new power.
What produced psychological stress was his promise not to use his powers AT ALL even though those powers could save the lives of kittens, puppies, and children.
Why not use these powers judiciously rather than not at all?
Why not slowly grow into these powers?
Man's mission is to explore? Says... ...who? God, evolution, the opening monologue "to boldly go" (note the hubris of daring to "boldly go")?
And how do you figure Q-Riker would, by necessity, be insane? Poison the well much?
Power is relative. Kings have traditionally wielded a disproportionate amount of power compared to their subjects. There have even been absolute monarchs. Nonetheless, there have been good monarchs as well as bad.
No, wait a second...
YARN said:
But Riker was not God. He was not all powerful - his powers were given to him by the Q and just as easily removed. He was not all-knowing or he would have guessed how his colleagues would refuse his gifts to them. He was not omnipresent either - his POV was still centered around his physical person - he did not know that the girl was dead until he saw her with his own eyes.
Riker was not omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent - and therefore cannot be called God.
Moreover, this line of reasoning ignores the fact that the crew of the Enterprise are Gods compared to the people who wrote the Bible. The Enterprise can travel faster than light. They literally travel to different worlds as they wish. The crew can materialize anywhere they wish. They can make food appear by manipulating energy. They can bring entire fantasies to life. A single phaser can hold off an old-world army. Imagine if the 300 Spartans had 300 Phasers. They can even travel back in time!
I think it's unfair to compare Q powers to other abilities humans have. Yes, technology and education have given humans "power" beyond what many of our ancestors would ever dream of. But would if you could go back in time and pick someone from the Middle Ages and show them a space ship, would you really trust that they would know how to utilize it, even if you were standing by? Sure, it's in their future, but they aren't ready.
Riker was given power no human has ever managed - the power over life and death, and over time itself. These abilities are so far outside of our very nature, I don't think we would be able to use these powers appropriately at all.
Riker was given power no human has ever managed - the power over life and death, and over time itself. These abilities are so far outside of our very nature, I don't think we would be able to use these powers appropriately at all.
Wrong, his personality was changing by the hour, he even turned away while Picard was talking, the morality here is NOT that he shouldn't have the power of Q, its that human beings do not have the capacity to control it yet...it is forced evolution, and the final confrontation demonstrates Riker has gained no knowledge in acquiring the power.
I think the fact you don't understand this is a good reason why you shouldn't have the power.
RAMA
YARN
Fleet Captain
He actually turned away while Picard was talking?
Big deal, this hardly makes him Pol Pot with superpowers... We didn't get a chance to see him learn to deal with/adjust to his powers. We only got to see the initial ego-rush and Riker's (justified) chafing at artificially imposed limitations which prevented him from saving sentient life. It takes time to grow into any new role, identity, or (dis)ability. Riker, however, is not given this time. He judged on what happens in the first few hours of these new powers.
The writing of the character is also prejudicial and this should be taken into consideration. The tail end of the episode was clunky and rushed - Riker was made to say things that were not really in character for him so as to "prove" the desired conclusion. It's like Eddie Murphy once joked - if it's my action film I'll whoop your ***. I am only willing to take so much responsibility for rushed writing. If we are to argue on more realistic grounds, then we cannot simply default to what the writers would have us imagine would necessarily occur under these circumstances.
Again, Riker has only had these powers for a few hours or days - he deserved to get more time to learn, to adjust, and to grow.
Note: When his crew mates refused their "gifts" he restored them all to normal. Indeed, if Riker were totally out of control, why not smite them for their refusal? Why not force more gifts upon them?
I think the fact you don't understand this is a good reason why you shouldn't have the power.
RAMA
This is entirely unfair. I disagree so I am, by necessity, wrong?
You have not dealt with my lines of counter-analysis, but rather are (apparently) content to spout the same old platitudes about power corrupting. This is unfair, because I have said quite a bit to mitigate, deny, or even turn opposing arguments on their head.
The mere fact that I have suggested that the judicious use of Q-Powers by Riker would arguably be acceptable is apparently enough to convict me of lacking the necessary acumen to even rationally discuss the issue. Thus the matter is closed before it can even be opened.
Great. I’m glad you think I think I’m better than you.
I'd like to hear more about the over-cautious part though.
A man is no smarter than the number of neurons in his head, right? What makes you think he’s any more virtuous? A god is orders of magnitude more of both because they’ve got orders of magnitude more processing power to work with.
It’s not akin to the 300 Spartans using phasers, but, as I said before, amoebas voting in political elections.
Except we see that’s not the case. If Q gave Riker both the power of Q and the…er…wisdom, then Riker may have been as big a pain as every Q we’ve seen, but he’d have been sane and not quite as “douche-y.”
But something is only risky if it allows for the possibility of success. Q also introduced the Enterprise to the Borg knowing that at that time, they would have NO chance of surviving that encounter.
And remembering a VOY episode in which Tuvok was teaching strategy to Maquis cadets, when overmatched, the best course of action is not to die in a blaze of glory, not for Riker to go mad like one of those decadent would-be Greeks in TOS’ “Plato’s Stepchildren” masturbating their power away, but making a tactical retreat.
I think what the episode is about is what happens to a man when he has too much power. Do you think that there is no such thing? Star Trek espouses a belief in a man’s ability to grow and suggests wondrous possibilities as he does. They’re not negated here. But the episode was about states he’s not yet grown into. Not your typical episode, but something that should be considered - spreading yourself too thin. It happens in the military, business, politics, and academics as well.
Here Trek’s taken it to the nth degree. Not only are we talking about a state of existence beyond a human’s ability to cope, but one that, as a Q, is near the infinite. It would have been more relatable giving Riker a brain just the size of Jupiter.
Here’s a question: say Riker held on to the powers and left the ship - what do you think would have become of him? I think that if he could have handled himself, Picard would have invited him to stay, as he invited Q to when he lost his powers even though he still retained what might for a human be too much intellect.
But the man you saw scoffing at his captain and who thought he could buy off his friends, did he didn’t seem okay to me. Riker wasn’t a petulant teen talking back to his dad who didn’t get he wasn’t a kid any more. He was fully grown (I don’t think he’d have acquired any Q wisdom) and lost in a place he would never be able to make sense of. And that, not being capable of overcoming something, though not ideal from a Nietzschean or Classical perspective of the cognitive abilities of man, does happen. Look at heroine addicts. Having the power of Q scoffs at heroine. No mortal could overcome that level of stimulation.
Douchiness that, like I said before, I think would have only gotten worse the more he got to know and use his power, eventually overwhelming him completely. The same for Amanda Rogers if she remained a human with the powers of a god. It’s what happened to Dr. Manhattan in the Watchmen – he became increasingly alienated and detached from his once group, no longer being one of them. At least he had greater intellect to focus his mind from going totally wild. Again, I liken it to the Collective overwhelming the mind of an individual.
It isn’t a racial characteristic, if that’s what you’re getting at – like Klingons are warriors, Ferengi are greedy, Humans are explorers. This actually annoys me about the show. I think it may be racist. I think what I meant is that you explore to find food and drink and shelter or you die. You explore to make sense of yourself or you become a jerk. You explore to find a friend or you are alone. You explore to find a mate or your genes end with you. You explore to build a community or the world is an lonely place. You explore because it can be fun to. Part of it is conscious and part of it is (at times heart-pounding) instinct. But I think that all life does that in its own way.
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YARN
Fleet Captain
No, not exactly.
I guess someone with lower IQ - let's call him Gump, would - by your analysis - be less virtuous than someone with higher IQ - let's call him Trump. I guess those MENSA folks must be the teensiest bit more virtuous than the rest of us?
Virtue is not a function of intelligence, but rather character.
You need to prove this insanity claim.
At any rate, the evidence on screen only suggests that Riker was himself with "genie" type powers. Nothing suggests that his IQ went higher.
Q also has a habit of showing the crew how to solve his puzzles. He is less a monster and more like a teacher-trickster.
At any rate, this one example does very little, if anything, to establish that Riker's new powers had no possibility of success.
In the Trek universe we have seen examples of both self-destruction and evolution on the part of species who develop great powers.
The holodeck gives one just as much power as the telekenetic abilities of alien species. It offers one any reality one wishes - and yet the crew still manages to find time to recreate and attend to their duties. The crew doesn't simply masturbate their power away.
Whether or not a man has too much power depends on the man as much as the nature and the extent of the power.
Like I said, Riker deserved a chance to grow into his powers. The "Never EVER use you powers" clause that Picard forces upon Riker created an impossible situation. Unless you're made of stone, you would feel compelled to use those powers to save lives in the sort of situations that the Enterprise regularly encounters.
Instead, Riker should have been given the chance to slowly and judiciously learn about the nature and extent of his powers.
Well, Picard is a bit of a blow hard. At any rate, Riker is not simply trying to "buy off" the crew. He is trying to give then what he thinks they really want. He gives a blind man the power of sight. Yeah, what a jerk. Just like Jesus buying off all those Gentiles with his miracles.
But the crew was uptight that they wouldn't accept any of his gifts. So, he took the gifts back (hardly terrible). Finally, they shame him into renouncing his powers. Hardly crazy, more like a company man if you ask me - no wonder he never took a command of his own.
I disagree. He might have very well grown into a Buddha.
But Manhattan didn't go insane. He didn't make humanity his slaves. He simply moved on to another state of being. Good on him.
It may very well be.
At any rate the true Gods of Trek (i.e., the writers who determine how things turn out and what is true in their universe) are on your side.
He actually turned away while Picard was talking?
We didn't get a chance to see him learn to deal with/adjust to his powers. We only got to see the initial ego-rush and Riker's (justified) chafing at artificially imposed limitations which prevented him from saving sentient life. It takes time to grow into any new role, identity, or (dis)ability. Riker, however, is not given this time. He judged on what happens in the first few hours of these new powers.
The writing of the character is also prejudicial and this should be taken into consideration. The tail end of the episode was clunky and rushed - Riker was made to say things that were not really in character for him so as to "prove" the desired conclusion. It's like Eddie Murphy once joked - if it's my action film I'll whoop your ***. I am only willing to take so much responsibility for rushed writing. If we are to argue on more realistic grounds, then we cannot simply default to what the writers would have us imagine would necessarily occur under these circumstances.
Again, Riker has only had these powers for a few hours or days - he deserved to get more time to learn, to adjust, and to grow.
Note: When his crew mates refused their "gifts" he restored them all to normal. Indeed, if Riker were totally out of control, why not smite them for their refusal? Why not force more gifts upon them?
I think the fact you don't understand this is a good reason why you shouldn't have the power.
RAMA
This is entirely unfair. I disagree so I am, by necessity, wrong?
You have not dealt with my lines of counter-analysis, but rather are (apparently) content to spout the same old platitudes about power corrupting. This is unfair, because I have said quite a bit to mitigate, deny, or even turn opposing arguments on their head.
The mere fact that I have suggested that the judicious use of Q-Powers by Riker would arguably be acceptable is apparently enough to convict me of lacking the necessary acumen to even rationally discuss the issue. Thus the matter is closed before it can even be opened.
There's a reason why its called evolution, even creating enhanced humans can be considered part of evolution, to adapt to surroundings and survive. There is no level of "super power" in the Q/Trelane range that I can see a human being adapting to in a few days, weeks or months, considering it took thousands or even millions of years for the other species to acquire such abilities...to suggest otherwise seems counter to any reasonable adaptability.
RAMA
In the hands of a mortal man, the power of the Q can be as addictive as crack and just as harmful. Even within the few hours he actually had the power, he was slowly being corrupted (turning his back on Picard, calling him by his first name, etc.). It may not have seemed like much at the time, but what about after a year? Or a century? Or a millennium? Giving god-like powers to a mortal is like giving a loaded machine-gun to a toddler.
Which would explain Q's behavior.
(And Trelane's, too.)
(And Trelane's, too.)
The power of a god is too much for one man, if Riker -with Q powers-lets one person live/come back to life then he'd pretty much have to save everyone. That was the problem when it came to the humans vs. the Q, humans had large morals and wouldn't accept letting others live and others die.
What's wrong with using Q powers, you have to apply it to everyone and that's not practial.
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