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So, was Cochrane's warp drive concept something special, or wasn't it ?

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So for twelve years out of two hundred and forty years America did not have a actual military Navy, Okay, the vast majority of America's history we did have a professional Navy.. The situation with the Barbary pirates showed what a mistake lacking a Navy cost American citizens and American commerce. We barely re-established a Navy in time to deal with the naval war with France.

Could a entity like pre-Romulan War like Earth reasonable exist without a armed military force, no. They might not have employed the name/term, but they did need one,
 
Could a entity like pre-Romulan War like Earth reasonable exist without a armed military force, no. They might not have employed the name/term, but they did need one,
There is one on Earth itself, although they have nothing to do but conduct training simulations since there has been no war on Earth for decades. The Vulcans have one in space, and they're "protecting" us by keeping us on a pretty tight leash because they don't think we're really "ready" to be out there yet. So why before intervening parties from the far future caused the Suliban to chase a Klingon into our backyard and the Xindi to launch a preemptive strike on us—all of which we were clearly unprepared for—would we think we need one? And why would the Vulcans allow us to have one even if we did think that? (NOTE: I have argued that both the reason we would and the reason they would not may lie in the conflicts with the Kzinti described in TAS.)

I have not argued it was good idea not to have a dedicated space military any more than I have argued it was a good idea not to have a navy. Yes, these were indeed mistakes, and ones that were subsequently remedied once this became undeniably obvious. But such mistakes were made, both in actual history and evidently in this fictional one.
 
So why before intervening parties from the far future caused the Suliban to chase a Klingon into our backyard and the Xindi to launch a preemptive strike on us—all of which we were clearly unprepared for

Unprepared?There was a military response from Earth against the Klingon incursion, with Earth warships that were capable enough (i.e. individually did at least as well as our heroes, and thus triumphed thanks to numbers). Obviously this took at least a few years of preparation, as starships in the era aren't built overnight.

We have at least some evidence of an Earth warfleet, then, and one supposedly associated with Starfleet (even though one could point out the warfleet was not explicitly stated to be under Starfleet command, and the officers in command of the warships were not shown onscreen to be wearing Starfleet uniforms). In contrast, we have no evidence that Earth would have operated an exploration fleet before NX-01, and scant evidence that Earth would have possessed an anti-piracy fleet or one performing colony support, even though the UESF undeniably existed. Conversely, there's no evidence of any competing combat organization, Vulcan or human, performing feats of combat on behalf of Earth; at most, there is evidence for such combat taking place, without explication of the combatants involved.

The UESF being Earth's de facto, de jure and de dicated warfleet sounds like the only realistic interpretation here.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Earth - and the Enterprise - just barely held their own. They were outclassed by many of the "unfriendly" races in the neighborhood. With the fleet that we've seen in ENT, and allowing some extrapolation, we have less than a dozen warp-capable ships in Starfleet (or equivalent agency).
Also, keep in mind that the definition of military as portrayed in TNG can be different than today. While some can view Starfleet as akin to the Coast Guard/Civil police or expedition force, perhaps an alternate view can be that by Picard's time, Starfleet was a NAVY organization, with different ideals and goals than a proper military force. Certainly by DS9 Starfleet has become a proper military, so the differences can be philosophical rather than practical.
 
Unprepared?There was a military response from Earth against the Klingon incursion, with Earth warships that were capable enough (i.e. individually did at least as well as our heroes, and thus triumphed thanks to numbers). Obviously this took at least a few years of preparation, as starships in the era aren't built overnight.
I'm talking about "Broken Bow." What you're talking about is two years later. Those ships could have been built in that time, or (more likely) they could have been repurposed to such tasks (probably with weapons upgraded) from what they were doing before if they already existed.

In contrast, we have no evidence that Earth would have operated an exploration fleet before NX-01
We really have very little evidence of much if any "fleet" to speak of before NX-01 at all. Like you said, we do have one reference to "survey ships." What evidence is there that any and all ships SF had weren't being used for exploration (and related support) within their limited range—"wad[ing] ankle-deep in the ocean of space" as Forrest put it—before Enterprise was ready to "swim"?

and scant evidence that Earth would have possessed an anti-piracy fleet
Exactly.

or one performing colony support
Exactly.

even though the UESF undeniably existed.
TRIP: It's no secret Starfleet hasn't been around too long! God knows you remind us of that every chance you get!

As has been pointed out, the U.S. Navy "existed" for a nearly half a decade before any ships were built, let alone on the open water.

Conversely, there's no evidence of any competing combat organization, Vulcan or human, performing feats of combat on behalf of Earth
T'Pol wanted to turn back and call in a Vulcan ship to take over when things went off-book after the Suliban snatched Klaang in "Broken Bow" for one. She relented to Archer's insistence with the stated concern that the Vulcan High Command would hold her responsible for the consequences. (This discussion has prompted me to start rewatching ENT so I'll be keeping an eye out for any further instances.)

The UESF being Earth's de facto, de jure and de dicated warfleet sounds like the only realistic interpretation here.
De facto, yes, de jure and dedicated, no. And again, there was no war so wherefore a "warfleet"? (As of the eve of NX-01's launch, that is. From there the process of things changing begins in repsonse to the events of "Broken Bow" and what follows.)

(Oh, and not that it's all that relevant at this point in the discussion, but you were incorrect in what you said upthread about Archer "deserting" at the end of this story. At its conclusion NX-01 receives new orders to continue with its initially planned exploratory mission since they are already some distance from Earth. Perhaps more relevant is that at its outset the Vulcans are all ready to overrule the Starfleet top brass as to having jurisdiction over Klaang's disposition even though he's on our soil. "That's irrelevant" is their initial response to that argument. It's only because of Archer's hissy fit making them lose their cool that they temporarily withdraw and later come to a compromise to allow SF to carry out the mission—with T'Pol's direct oversight.)
 
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I'm talking about "Broken Bow." What you're talking about is two years later.

But there was no Klingon threat in "Broken Bow", just a small craft crashing. For all we know because UESF shot it down! Certainly the Intrepid would have existed at that point if starship construction takes as long as the later events would indicate it does.

What evidence is there that any and all ships SF had weren't being used for exploration (and related support) within their limited range

Chiefly the lack of exploration procedures evident in our heroes' stumbling. What would Starfleet have explored when there was nothing actually found by them? We learn of no encounters with alien species between the Vulcan arrival and Klaang's - except those made by Earth's civilian truckers.

As has been pointed out, the U.S. Navy "existed" for a nearly half a decade before any ships were built, let alone on the open water.

But the existence of ships is hardly in doubt - ships exist in "The Expanse" and decidedly lack novelty value there. They even represent "generations", some looking like Archer's scale model and the spacecraft in the opening credits, another looking pretty much like the Enterprise.

Most of the "traditional", 24th century (or 18th century) naval roles would be difficult to perform with ships that can't reach their destinations until months or years after the call for action. Combat is the one thing that could be performed, because in the typical case the enemy would do the traveling for you! It is also the role in which Earth would no doubt place its greatest ambitions.

We have the organization. We have the personnel. We have the limitations on what these might be doing. We don't have an explicit limitation on the combat role being performed or at least practiced for or on the required ships existing. The "early US" naval model certainly could work here, but it's not one we should greatly favor over the "UESF was made battle-ready just in time to kick Kzinti tail".

T'Pol wanted

But in an unprecedented situation, meaning there might not be any precedent to what she wanted, either.

And again, there was no war so wherefore a "warfleet"?

There's always war in Trek, especially when none is mentioned! And conversely, there's no mention of peace between the Vulcan first contact and Klaang's arrival.

But by historical precedent, navies are formed when a nascent nation can afford to, in order to have war - what gets founded in response to war is a more haphazard arrangement that generally fails to persist. The US deliberately sought for combat after acquiring the means, but reasonably not before spending some time training for properly using the means. The situation in the new South American navies of the 19th century might be even more appropriate, with modern fighting vessels acquired more to introduce an all-new dimension to fighting than to meet an existing need.

At its conclusion NX-01 receives new orders to continue with its initially planned exploratory mission since they are already some distance from Earth.

Those were Archer's own orders sent back to him with official blessing and lots of snickering behind the Vulcans' stiff backs. Forrest just "saw no reason" to stop Archer from doing what he was doing anyway, now that Archer's actions had created a done deal.

It's only because of Archer's hissy fit making them lose their cool that they temporarily withdraw and later come to a compromise to allow SF to carry out the mission—with T'Pol's direct oversight.

And Archer continues to hiss, for one thing sailing outside Vulcan reach and threatening to sail further. So it's the Vulcan "authority" that has become irrelevant here, through this introducing of an all-new element to the UESF.

With the fleet that we've seen in ENT, and allowing some extrapolation, we have less than a dozen warp-capable ships in Starfleet (or equivalent agency).

Or then about a hundred, 90% of them stuck in transit due to their inferior engines.

And that's just "capital" ships (or what goes for a capital ship in Starfleet; heavy cruisers seem to qualify a century later). We have seen that the tiniest arctic survey sleds are warp-capable in the 2150s, and those might have some sort of a combat role even though they have no real interstellar role. A massive military organization might exist for juggling such "coastal" assets, just like South American navies were founded around highly capable monitors that nevertheless were quite incapable of ocean transit.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Or then about a hundred, 90% of them stuck in transit due to their inferior engines.

And that's just "capital" ships (or what goes for a capital ship in Starfleet; heavy cruisers seem to qualify a century later). We have seen that the tiniest arctic survey sleds are warp-capable in the 2150s, and those might have some sort of a combat role even though they have no real interstellar role. A massive military organization might exist for juggling such "coastal" assets, just like South American navies were founded around highly capable monitors that nevertheless were quite incapable of ocean transit.
Certainly not a "hundred" warp ships, that belong to earth's government. If you're including intrasystem 'shuttles' or corvette patrol-ships, perhaps. Maybe a handful are modern, and none with heavy weapons. In terms of Starfleet or equivalent vessels, no more than twelve. Tops.
 
(Annoyingly, I had a whole post typed up in response before a power outage sent it into the aether. I will try to just sum up the key points.)

But there was no Klingon threat in "Broken Bow", just a small craft crashing.
Tos: If we hadn't convinced them to let us take Klaang's corpse back to Qo'noS, Earth would most likely be facing a squadron of warbirds by the end of the week.

And it was the Suliban who presented themselves as the potentially greater threat. They're the ones who chased Klaang down in the first place, and later boarded NX-01 and abducted him. In retrieving him from their custody on his own initiative with T'Pol's reluctant support, Archer discovered that they were players in a temporal cold war (the same one which would later prompt the Xindi to attack Earth). None of this seemed to have been expected or planned for by Starfleet.

Certainly the Intrepid would have existed at that point if starship construction takes as long as the later events would indicate it does.
Or maybe not every type of ship takes as long to build as an NX, and Intrepid hadn't even had her keel laid yet. Or maybe she was fairly far along but not yet completed. Maybe a lot of things. But it's really irrelevant in any case, as my argument isn't predicated on there not having been any other ships before NX-01.

What would Starfleet have explored when there was nothing actually found by them? We learn of no encounters with alien species between the Vulcan arrival and Klaang's - except those made by Earth's civilian truckers.
The ECS had more such encounters because they had been out there for generations. Starfleet had not, and we have no evidence they had more than a meager handful of ships anyway. That they didn't find much is not evidence that they weren't looking. And we also know SF was conducting training programs within the solar system, so some resources would be dedicated to the setting up and running of those, and to other support tasks including designing and constructing further ships and equipment.

But the existence of ships is hardly in doubt - ships exist in "The Expanse"
Yes. Three of them. Two years later.

and decidedly lack novelty value there.
You've clearly decided that, on what basis still not being entirely clear to me. Remember, this was after the Xindi attack. Starfleet was recalling ships to Earth (not that they couldn't have already done this after "Broken Bow" when the Klingons and Suliban first became known as potential threats). These could have been the closest ones, thus having arrived before Enterprise despite being slower. (Or again, they could already have been there.)

They even represent "generations", some looking like Archer's scale model and the spacecraft in the opening credits, another looking pretty much like the Enterprise.
"Looking pretty much like" equating to "certainly predating" how in your mind, exactly? (And personally, I might be a bit more wary of determining construction timeline by overall outward appearance. But again, here I don't see any reason not to concede that these ships preexisted NX-01, since this doesn't in itself indicate they were designed and equipped to defend Earth against foreign incursion from the get-go anyway.)

But in an unprecedented situation, meaning there might not be any precedent to what she wanted, either.
The precedent at the outset of "Broken Bow" was pretty clearly that the Vulcans were in substantial part calling the shots as far as our foreign relations with other species were concerned, by our tacit consent if nothing else.

Soval: The Klingons made it very clear they want us to expedite this.
Leonard: It happened on our soil!
Tos: That's irrelevant.
Forrest: Ambassador, with all due respect, we have a right to know what's going on here.
Soval: You will be apprised of all pertinent information.
Williams: And just who gets to decide what's pertinent information?

Soval: The Klingons have demanded that we return Klaang immediately.
Archer: Admiral...
Forrest: We may need to defer to their judgment.
Archer: We've been deferring to their judgment for a hundred years!
Forrest: Jon...
Archer: How much longer?
T'Pol: Until you've proven you're ready.

Hoshi: I thought you said the Vulcans were opposed to this.
Archer: They are, but we agreed to make a few compromises.

There's always war in Trek, especially when none is mentioned! And conversely, there's no mention of peace between the Vulcan first contact and Klaang's arrival.
Trip: Yeah? How about war, disease, hunger? Pretty much wiped 'em out in less than two generations. I wouldn't call that small potatoes.
T'Pol: It remains to be seen whether humanity will revert to its baser instincts.

(Those "two generations" being the ones immediately following First Contact, not those immediately preceding "Broken Bow" to be clear on that point.)
 
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Sure, this makes sense to me. Your line about "Everybody can build a warp coil" reminds me of a bit in the Zephram Cochrane-focused novel Federation, by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, where
Cochrane makes his designs free to all across the galaxy after he makes his historic first warp flight to Alpha Centauri.

This, more than anything else, opens up space travel and creates the environment that allows the UFP to come into existence. It's kind of like how when Jonas Salk developed the polio vaccine, he refused to patent it, instead making it free for all so that it could be safe, effective, and widespread. When asked why he did this when he could have turned a huge profit by patenting it, Salk replied, "There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?"

Can you think of a more Star Trek style attitude than that? :techman:

Because of this book, I have the story of First Contact. This book seemed like it fit what we were told up to that point. Then FC came out. I know most people think it's one of the best, but I just can't.
 
After stardates, dates are most often given in human Gregorian Calendar terms. With the very rare exception, Federation ships are named after Earth locations or humans. Star Trek has always been very Earth/human centric so it's no wonder that the "inventor of warp drive" from Earth would be lauded as if he invented warp drive for the entire galaxy. Especially when we're dealing with TOS.

Although I do agree that it's kinda odd that names are always in modern English on the hulls of the ships, names like Enterprise, Intrepid, Excelsior, they are all words that could be translated into any alien language. It's when it comes to the names of people or places that it becomes truly human-centric. Although I really appreciate that TNG names a ship after a Klingon Chancellor.
While of course I share this criticism of Star Trek, I do point out that the high registry numbers point to the existence of plenty of offscreen Starfleet vessels which could conceivably be named after non-humans.

Plenty of Star Trek novels balance the human and Western-centrism better.
 
While of course I share this criticism of Star Trek, I do point out that the high registry numbers point to the existence of plenty of offscreen Starfleet vessels which could conceivably be named after non-humans.

Plenty of Star Trek novels balance the human and Western-centrism better.

I love how the novels were so much better than the shows when it comes to this.
 
There is one on Earth itself, although they have nothing to do but conduct training simulations since there has been no war on Earth for decades.
Are you under the false belief that warfare is a militraries sole activity? Plus the existence of strong militaries probably is what was suppressing full blown wars, running around the globe stamping out conflicts.

They didn't have wars, they had police actions, covert peacekeeping missions, overseas contingency operations, responded to man caused disasters, counterinsurgency, pacifications.

Oh, but not wars.
 
Sure, yes, the MACOs could be doing some things like that on Earth as well. "Nothing to do but conduct training simulations" was an overstatement on my part, especially as it can be readily interpreted that the "Harbinger" line might refer specifically to their off-world combat experience being limited to such exercises, which makes sense in context.
 
The line in Harbinger was ignored in the novels anyway as not making any sense and so, the MACOs do have some actual combat experience, mostly defending Earth colonies. Yeah, I know, not canon.
 
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