So this "Katra" thing seems like a raw deal for a lot of Vulcans.
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That was more just a person's consciousness than it was a "soul." Although I suppose trying to figure out the difference between the two would basically turn into a debate on metaphysics and science vs. religion and all sorts of things better suited to TNZ as opposed to GTD.
However, the TOS episodes did try to present the concept scientifically with technology being used for the transfer, implying it's something the devices were built for. Meanwhile Trek III actually has characters describing it as "mysticism" and involves rituals and ceremonies that one kind of has to wonder why a race which devotes itself to "pure logic" is even bothering with. Seriously, how do you logically justify carrying someone in a chair lifted by minions in a technologically advanced society?
I agree it wasn't absolutely necessary, but they did have to give Kirk motivation for wanting to go back to Genesis. He doesn't realize Spock physical body is alive yet, so unless some other compelling reason is introduced he's not going. I guess Savvik and David could have found Spock alive and pretty much his old self, radioed it to the Grissom who relates it to Starfleet HQ before it's destroyed and Kirk finds about it and isn't going to waste time while SFC is sitting around screwing around trying to figure out what to do about this whole situation, so he steals the Enterprise anyway.
But the writers had to explain the whole "remember" thing, adding in Sarek's talk about the Katra makes it more mysterious I guess and it would have to been a little anti climatic to just find Spock his old self and be like "Oh I'm so glad you're not dead". I don't have too much of a problem with it despite it's obvious flaws.
Ultimately the reason for this lies with the fact Nimoy waffled at the last minute in TWOK about being killed off for good and they had to come up with something to explain his comeback from the dead and they did the best they could under tight time limits.
Like I said I'll take it over "super blood" anyday.
The whole katra element was introduced inspired by the episode 'Return to Tomorrow', with Sargon, Thalassa and Henoch. The vrekatra, or 'katric ark', was intended to be modeled after the spheres that preserved Sargon and company. They're all kept in Mount Seleya (it's hollow), and any who wish to commune with 'those who have passed' comes to the mountain and requests an audience. Some of this was in earlier drafts of the SFS script, the rest is speculation by Vonda McIntyre and other authors.
The Sargon bit might be in the novelization, but I doubt there was anything about Sargon in any draft of the script. TOS movies just didn't reference the show in that kind of detail. Even TWOK gave a heavily condensed version of Khan's backstory.
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I hate that! STAR TREK authors are so self-indulgent with their novels, it robs their prose of all entertainment value ... at least for me, personally.
I think pop culture has largely forgotten the mystical/telepathic aspects of Vulcans and just focuses on the logic and unemotional side. But it's been there since TOS with the frequent mind-melds or that scene where Spock detects the deaths of the all Vulcan crew almost like Obi Wan detecting the destruction of Alderaan. It really does border on new-agey, and I can understand why those who want their Trek on the harder sci-fi side would rather see this stuff brushed under the rug, but if you accept it, I don't feel that how it was bent/exploited as a plot-device in Trek III was unreasonable.
Please tell me you're kidding.
In my opinion, the VERY BEST Trek since TOS ended has been contributed by those "self-indulgent" authors daring to "speculate" to fill out a universe that would seem too empty in many respects otherwise. In my personal head canon, I'll choose the writings of Diane Duane, for example, over all of "Enterprise" and that abysmal "Nemesis" when it comes to the Romulans and Vulcans, any day of the week. And even Vonda McIntyre, who had concepts in her books that I sometimes did not think fit Trek quite properly, still offered up something interesting that we could chose to accept or not.
There have been a few authors that I actively avoid, but even then, I think I would *generally* take their writing over having to watch "Threshold" again.
There was also the thread of evolving-into-energy-beings, "pure thought, pure energy" metaphysics woven throughout the show. but as you say, probably needs to go to TNZ to pursue.
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The katra though, seems to be more of a restore point than a movement. After all, Spock still functions and saves the ship after the dump.
Trying to catch up..
Vulcan katras may need to go to organic containers(beings) to be fully functional. As to individuals, their katras may be transfered to other beings or into vrekatras because they are not ready to fully leave their current existence.
Vulcan katras may need to go to organic containers(beings) to be fully functional. As to individuals, their katras may be transfered to other beings or into vrekatras because they are not ready to fully leave their current existence.
I haven't read the thread, but in case no one has mentioned it ...
ST09 addressed the issue, just in passing, when Spock was about to beam down to the imploding planet. The caves where the Council were hiding contained what Spock called the "Katric Ark."
That suggests a repository for the katras of departed Vulcans.
Unfortunately, it could not be saved in that timeline.
ST09 addressed the issue, just in passing, when Spock was about to beam down to the imploding planet. The caves where the Council were hiding contained what Spock called the "Katric Ark."
That suggests a repository for the katras of departed Vulcans.
Unfortunately, it could not be saved in that timeline.
I'm not sure mind reading is necessarily paranormal. Our brains are really just very complex wetware computers, so theoretically it should be possible to build another computer to read the contents or the activity. And if it is possible to do that, maybe it is possible that it could have evolved, too - say, in a species for which that is their primary means of communication.
The main problem I have is believing they would look like a Betazoid. But hey, I come to Trek for a good time, not total realism, so I'll allow it.
I did say some of one and some of the other. I haven't read the earlier drafts, so I don't know which is which. USS Triumphant did say Vonda McIntyre made contributions in her novelizations that didn't always fit with Trek.
I think Corporal Clegg actually meant "just as soon" rather than "just assume".
I'm not on any cruisade against STAR TREK novels, but I've never had a good experience with STAR TREK in prose. I use one to prop up a chair another for kindling and wrapping garbage ... and a couple I've kept because they were so corny as to be unintentionally funny. Like one I got on the cheap called TNG: Friend of Foe. The cover is blatantly lifted off of a collector's plate, which amuses me, all the more ...Please tell me you're kidding.
In my opinion, the VERY BEST Trek since TOS ended has been contributed by those "self-indulgent" authors daring to "speculate" to fill out a universe that would seem too empty in many respects otherwise. In my personal head canon, I'll choose the writings of Diane Duane, for example, over all of "Enterprise" and that abysmal "Nemesis" when it comes to the Romulans and Vulcans, any day of the week. And even Vonda McIntyre, who had concepts in her books that I sometimes did not think fit Trek quite properly, still offered up something interesting that we could chose to accept or not.
There have been a few authors that I actively avoid, but even then, I think I would *generally* take their writing over having to watch "Threshold" again.
Wait, you're saying in non-canon (which by and large I don't read), Vulcans are driven insane eventually as well?
I did have one other thought/question in my head--what explains McCoy talking with Spock's voice? That, I have to say, makes about zero sense. It was a normal voice, one that comes through vocal cords and not some spooky spiritual projection--so how did McCoy produce Spock's voice? Vocal cords aren't interchangeable; it's not like tuning a piano, even if you could do the tuning, because the piano wires are physically different from piano to piano. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.
Whatever the explanation of that, though, for me that's a mentally confused (in the very strong mind meld sense) McCoy talking, not Spock through McCoy.
"Friend or Foe" is the name of a TNG FAN FICTION. I can't find where it has ever been a book. What are you tryin' to pull here, pal? :eyes you suspiciously:
I disagree. There was some really good stuff in the earlier days, then a bad patch (starting right around the time the TOS novel line hit somewhere in the 60s, IMO) where the good was kind of rare, but then the most recent stuff - especially the post-Nemesis TNG/DS9/Titan/Voyager stuff - has been truly excellent, with the rare exception here and there. If you gave up on TrekLit during that rough period, you might want to give it another look - I'd recommend starting with the Destiny Trilogy.
I think he might mean Foreign Foes which has a cover which looks like it could be used on a collector's plate.
I was kidding about eyeing him suspiciously, anyway - I don't really care THAT much. And I half thought that might be the one he was really talking about. So yeah, if it is, it's from that period I was just talking about when everything kinda went in the toilet, quality-wise, for a while.
