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So Scotty invented transwarp beaming?

Getting off the ship was probably done with just normal transporters since the Enterprise came to the rescue.
"Normal" transporters, funny you should say that. Because I haven't seen them changing any hardware, they just talked about a "formula". So the transmitters for the beam, that sends your particles across the universe, were already designed to be powerful enough to beam something that far, the targeting scanners that tell you were you actually are beaming to, were powerful enough. Yet nobody but Scotty believed it was possible to beam that far.

So what? That's what makes Scotty a miracle worker in TOS anyway. Pulling off the impossible is part of an engineer's job, from Trip to Torres.

The distance from Titan to Earth is between 1,241,663,400 km and 1,510,939,800 km, that's almost 40,000 times (!!) the maximum distance stated in TNG.

Why would any transporter system be equipped to target and beam to such distant places when they think it's impossible to do that?
Could it be just the transporter's sensors doing that? Would it be possible to jerry-rig other sensors to the transporters? Every Trek ship we've seen has long-range sensors. I'm not sure how powerful the TOS sensors are, but in Enterprise they could scan whole systems for trace energies (that's how they found the planet builders) and in TNG/DS9/VOY they can scan whole sectors for just about anything. But in all those cases, the transporters have a clear limit that's far less than the ship's scanning range.

Let's also remember the reverse-trick that the Voyager-Maquis used as well. In order to beam from a warped ship to a fixed location requires a huge ton of calculations, formulas, and modifications -- and 40,000 km in warp is almost infinitely tiny. Logically speaking, for them to do that reverse trick, they'd have to cover a distance of more than 40,000 km.

And the reason why Scotty beamed them onto the bridge instead of a cargo bay was not because the targeting scanners were not working properly, it was because he mis-interpreted the deck layout of the Narada.
Is this explicitly said in the movie? I must have missed it but I'm open to reading/hearing it again. Regardless, it's still a miss. Even in schematic form, a cargo bay looks very different from any (and every) bridge we've seen in Star Trek.

3 out of 4 misses constitutes an unreliable technology. This perhaps explains why, according to Data and Geordi, such long-range transport testing had been dropped by the Federation in Bloodlines. But because of the distance covered, it might also explain why Reginald Barclay's professor spoke about the possibility of subspace beaming in Realm of Fear.

But I forgot what was the reason why they didn't beam Pike, the only human aboard a ship full of Romulans, simply away onto the Enterprise?
It could be a TNG-style limitation, where you couldn't definitely lock onto a specific person without a combadge or other identifier, otherwise you'd be beaming up a random person. Whenever we see one of the crew trying to run while onboard the ship, one of the first things they toss is their badge. Likewise, Sisko put his badge onto a bomb so that the Defiant could lock on and beam it away.

Voyager seemed to get rid of this limitation, but hey, that's far into the future.
 
And the reason why Scotty beamed them onto the bridge instead of a cargo bay was not because the targeting scanners were not working properly, it was because he mis-interpreted the deck layout of the Narada.

That was my interpertation of the events.

But I forgot what was the reason why they didn't beam Pike, the only human aboard a ship full of Romulans, simply away onto the Enterprise?

Because they couldn't detect him? The other times they've transported in the movie at least, they were either on a transported pad, or at least one person in the group was carrying a communicator, which probably doubles as a beacon.
 
Sorry for double posting

Is this explicitly said in the movie? I must have missed it but I'm open to reading/hearing it again. Regardless, it's still a miss. Even in schematic form, a cargo bay looks very different from any (and every) bridge we've seen in Star Trek.

Then again, the Narada doesn't seem to be at all laid out like any ship we've seen in Star Trek, even the bridge we see in the prologue seems incredibly spacious, so it may have been difficult to see where the ship's cargo hold may be.

Plus you have to remember that the ship had been rammed by the Kelvin, so there's no telling what repairs may have prohibitied in where things were in the ship.
 
Is this explicitly said in the movie? I must have missed it but I'm open to reading/hearing it again. Regardless, it's still a miss. Even in schematic form, a cargo bay looks very different from any (and every) bridge we've seen in Star Trek.

Then again, the Narada doesn't seem to be at all laid out like any ship we've seen in Star Trek, even the bridge we see in the prologue seems incredibly spacious, so it may have been difficult to see where the ship's cargo hold may be.

Plus you have to remember that the ship had been rammed by the Kelvin, so there's no telling what repairs may have prohibitied in where things were in the ship.

I can concede that, sure, but it seems to fly in the face of what the writers were going for: setting up the running joke of Scotty's beaming method being woefully-but-comically inaccurate.

Then again, running jokes are writer's logic and not really within the narrative context of a film.
 
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So what? That's what makes Scotty a miracle worker in TOS anyway. Pulling off the impossible is part of an engineer's job, from Trip to Torres.

That's the point: HE didn't do anything. They engineers who built the transporters of the outpost and the Enterprise already built them capable of beaming 40,000 times the distance thought being possible.

And you can't do such a thing just by doing some programming. It's like trying to double your Internet speed with programming (entering a "formula"), or the power of a walkie talkie, when in fact you needed to change the hardware: transmission medium, antennas, routers, etc...

Could it be just the transporter's sensors doing that? Would it be possible to jerry-rig other sensors to the transporters? Every Trek ship we've seen has long-range sensors.
That doesn't explain why the beam itself has enough power and focus. Why would Starfleet Engineers build transmitters powerful enough to transmit particles across 40,000 times the distance that is thought to be the possible maximum?


Moreover, transwarp beaming means that this particle beam needed to travel faster than light, faster than warp. I really doubt that you could achieve that by just some programming.

They could have let Scotty crawl into a Jeffries tube to fix the hardware, that would have been an opportunity for a good homage.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_c1wafo0FrCg/RafI69z_AyI/AAAAAAAAABU/Hk79LJsKDUA/s320/jeffries.jpg

[Hotlinked image converted to link. Please refer to TrekBBS policy concerning posting of images. - M']
 
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So what? That's what makes Scotty a miracle worker in TOS anyway. Pulling off the impossible is part of an engineer's job, from Trip to Torres.

That's the point: HE didn't do anything. They engineers who built the transporters of the outpost and the Enterprise already built them capable of beaming 40,000 times the distance thought being possible.

And you can't do such a thing just by doing some programming. It's like trying to double your Internet speed with programming (entering a "formula"), or the power of a walkie talkie, when in fact you needed to change the hardware: transmission medium, antennas, routers, etc...

And now you're just debating the realm of fictional science and engineering. I'm so sure the E-D's engines were never built to go faster than Warp 9.9, but we see them blazing through two galaxies and then into an unknown realm in Season 1. The E-D and Voyager's deflector dishes are built to deflect, not to time travel or reroute planetary gasses or open up dimensional rifts. Just how can a Cardassian mining station transmit a beacon to contact noncorporeal beings? LaForge didn't build that engine. Torres didn't build the deflector. O'Brien sure as heck didn't build Terok Nor.

In Trek, equipment often goes wayy beyond their normal configurations. Not much is said other than fancy-shmancy technobabble, but they're usually modified in story. Isn't it possible for Scotty to do that offscreen like so many others in Trek?

It brings up two things:
1. Starfleet tech tends to be super malleable (the Dominion hyperbole of Starfleet engineers turning rocks into tricorders comes to mind)
2. This sort of improvisation tends to be a Trek storytelling tradition across all the shows.

Granted, it makes as much sense as Jeff Goldblum's Mac-book hacking into the big bad mothership, but Starfleet tech is fictional.

Lastly, why can we accept Spock entering a few calculations (on the fly!) to make an inferior and rusty BoP capable of time travel, but we can't accept nuScotty getting someone from point A to point B with the same narrative logic? Just as Scotty didn't build the Abramsprise, Spock Prime didn't build that BoP. Do Klingons design Birds of Prey with the intent of time travel?

Could it be just the transporter's sensors doing that? Would it be possible to jerry-rig other sensors to the transporters? Every Trek ship we've seen has long-range sensors.
That doesn't explain why the beam itself has enough power and focus. Why would Starfleet Engineers build transmitters powerful enough to transmit particles across 40,000 times the distance that is thought to be the possible maximum?
Focus could happen in any number of ways. C'mon Picard, say "Magnify" to your viewscreen again! While you're at warp! I never could figure out how you could magnify an image traveling at warp (does their camera lens travel at warp?), but it just does.

As for power, while the movie never really said anything about power, I would imagine it would be a serious drain on transporter energy stores. Again, going back to Bloodlines, Geordi and Data themselves said that the Federation found long-distance beaming to be very costly energy-wise. Could it be different this time around? I don't imagine so.

Moreover, transwarp beaming means that this particle beam needed to travel faster than light, faster than warp. I really doubt that you could achieve that by just some programming.
Again, do we know the science that Scotty is or should be employing? Should the audience be bored down by technobabble in order to explain that? As nuScotty said, he based his concepts not on objects themselves moving, but on space itself moving. Perhaps folding, which itself sounds like the FTL drives used in Event Horizon, and that in itself uses a model of science that's different than much of Trek. Maybe they open up a micro-wormhole, since wormholes can travel faster than warp. It's conjecture on my part too, but you're also using conjecture since, hey, it works. In any sci-fi film, science is at the mercy of the story.

I'm still a bit taken aback by the idea that Starfleet has technology that can create planets. It's never really explained how they do it other than a quick and convenient synopsis by Carol Marcus (what's the Matrix? why does protomatter, well, matter? how could it assemble the Mutara Nebula? etc. etc. etc). But 27 years later, no one really considers this lack of technobabble explanation a fault of TWOK. Genesis just does what the story dictates. It's really a device comprised of wonderful nonsense in a really wonderful movie.

They could have let Scotty crawl into a Jeffries tube to fix the hardware, that would have been an opportunity for a good homage.
Now this we can agree on. Drink two shots if a panel fuses right in front of his face!
 
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Tried it four times? I only remember the once, beaming NuKirk and NuScotty to the NuEnterprise. What were the other three?

1. NuKirk to Engineering: target hit
2. NuScotty to Engineering: target missed, nearly killed by goofy water trap
3 & 4. Kirk and Spock to lower regions of Narada: target missed, beamed to the other side of the ship, in front of the crew and thereby spoiling the plan of surprise. And it's a big ship. Messy gunfight ensues, heroes nearly killed several times over.

Getting off the ship was probably done with just normal transporters since the Enterprise came to the rescue. I didn't count Porthos b/c that happened before Spock Prime could lend a hand.

Ah, I see. You're counting each subject, as well as the target landing(s). I gotcha.
 
So what? That's what makes Scotty a miracle worker in TOS anyway. Pulling off the impossible is part of an engineer's job, from Trip to Torres.

That's the point: HE didn't do anything. They engineers who built the transporters of the outpost and the Enterprise already built them capable of beaming 40,000 times the distance thought being possible.

And you can't do such a thing just by doing some programming. It's like trying to double your Internet speed with programming (entering a "formula"), or the power of a walkie talkie, when in fact you needed to change the hardware: transmission medium, antennas, routers, etc...

Could it be just the transporter's sensors doing that? Would it be possible to jerry-rig other sensors to the transporters? Every Trek ship we've seen has long-range sensors.
That doesn't explain why the beam itself has enough power and focus. Why would Starfleet Engineers build transmitters powerful enough to transmit particles across 40,000 times the distance that is thought to be the possible maximum?

Moreover, transwarp beaming means that this particle beam needed to travel faster than light, faster than warp. I really doubt that you could achieve that by just some programming.

I can believe that they can scan the warp field and transponder of the Enterprise, I can't believe that their scanners are powerful enough to map the ship's interior at that range. If there was a transporter operator on a pad on the Enterprise working hard to beam in the signal then I might give them more slack as a one-off but in an era when intra-ship beaming was considered dangerous (probably due to energy fluctuations from engines) it seems like several million steps too far to beam across such a huge distance into probably the most heavily shielded part of the ship.

I suppose they could have gained additional power because the instruments that allow them to detect a Federation distress beacon a few miles from the base were taken off line, unless it's nuFederation's official policy not to fit escape pods with distress signals to fund their much larger ships? Or maybe Scotty thinks that it's ok to leave potentially injured crewmen to freeze to death?
 
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Moreover they could have simply beamed EVERYONE off that ship into a holding cell. Aah, damn, they didn't have a cell, which is why they had to exile Kirk. And they did get a scan of the entire ship's internal structures down to the deck plans, but they couldn't detect life forms.
 
I see Transwarp Beaming as different to subspace beaming. One beamed you a long way, the other beamed you from a (relatively) stationary start to a ship at warp 8.

IMO Scotty invented it after his TNG-era ressurection.

Expect it to be mysteriously forgotten come the next film...
 
LOL, yeah. I indeed expect a "We are out of transporter range!" in the next movie or a "We lost him. His ship went to warp." - "Damnit!" .
 
Re: Titan beaming

The script originally had the Enterprise warping to Titan, hiding in the rings or the atmosphere and then maneuvering into the Naradas 'blind spot' (behind the ship) when it passes by. What is unclear to me is that the Narada must have been going really slow because the Enterprise spent a while warping in the wrong direction and only turned around after Kirk arrived and took command.

It seems they changed this as much as the writers strike would allow and instead had them beaming in from Titan instead, presumably with transwarp beaming. In the version of the script I have seen Scotty says to forget transwarp beaming because he cannot compute the Naradas exact position.

The script fooking sucked in a Trek tech sense and suffered greatly from other weaknesses & plot holes etc! I hope K&O have learnt some lessons and that Lindelof can ensure they don't repeat their mistakes. Dialogue & Origin stuff from K&O was 10/10 though! imho.
 
I see Transwarp Beaming as different to subspace beaming. One beamed you a long way, the other beamed you from a (relatively) stationary start to a ship at warp 8.

IMO Scotty invented it after his TNG-era ressurection.

Expect it to be mysteriously forgotten come the next film...

Like the:

-Genesis device
-resurrection through Genesis
-Starfleet-made Transwarp drive
-those fancy warp highways that got the E-A to the center of the galaxy
-the Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked
-the sun destroyer torpedo (to be fair, DS9 did use it)
-Borg time travel
-the fountain of youth particles

It's weird how Trek tends to toss aside all these wonderful toys...
 
Like the:

-Genesis device
-resurrection through Genesis
-Starfleet-made Transwarp drive
-those fancy warp highways that got the E-A to the center of the galaxy
-the Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked
-the sun destroyer torpedo (to be fair, DS9 did use it)
-Borg time travel
-the fountain of youth particles

It's weird how Trek tends to toss aside all these wonderful toys...

-Genesis device: all scientists killed by Khan, the prototype destroyed, the project and the results classified by Starfleet and the cause of highly political controversy. Realistically it vanished under the wheels of bureaucracy.

-Resurrection through Genesis: Spock's death and ressurection was mentioned in ST 4, 5 and 6, in TNG Unification, and the Katra stuff was carried on as canon part of Vulcan culture, used in ENT, and even in this movie, too.

-Starfleet-made Transwarp drive: Scotty sabotaged the system and it didn't work anyways. It was an experiment that failed. And with many failed experiments, they are never attempted again.

-those fancy warp highways: you mean those that were NEVER mentioned at ANY time on screen? How can you forget about something that wasn't there to begin with?




-the fountain of youth particles: do you mean those from Star Trek 9?
 
Like the:

-Genesis device
-resurrection through Genesis
-Starfleet-made Transwarp drive
-those fancy warp highways that got the E-A to the center of the galaxy
-the Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked
-the sun destroyer torpedo (to be fair, DS9 did use it)
-Borg time travel
-the fountain of youth particles

It's weird how Trek tends to toss aside all these wonderful toys...

-Genesis device: all scientists killed by Khan, the prototype destroyed, the project and the results classified by Starfleet and the cause of highly political controversy. Realistically it vanished under the wheels of bureaucracy.

-Resurrection through Genesis: Spock's death and ressurection was mentioned in ST 4, 5 and 6, in TNG Unification, and the Katra stuff was carried on as canon part of Vulcan culture, used in ENT, and even in this movie, too.

-Starfleet-made Transwarp drive: Scotty sabotaged the system and it didn't work anyways. It was an experiment that failed. And with many failed experiments, they are never attempted again.

-those fancy warp highways: you mean those that were NEVER mentioned at ANY time on screen? How can you forget about something that wasn't there to begin with?

-the fountain of youth particles: do you mean those from Star Trek 9?

You miss the point. If transwarp beaming is forgotten in the next movie, doesn't that follow this grand tradition of super-powerful tech not being carried over? At least there's precedent in TNG, once again citing Laforge and Data explaining the Federation's concerns with long-distance beaming. Your explanation for Transwarp being a failure -- couldn't that apply to transwarp beaming in the next movie if they don't use it? I'd say it can apply, too. After all, it was experimental, it was inaccurate, and we could maybe infer that it's a serious drain on power based on what you said earlier and Data and LaForge's comments.

Additionally, being referenced is far different than being used.

As for the warp highways in V, how else could the E-A cover 35,000 light years in a movie when it would take Voyager 3 decades to do the same thing? No idea. Did it matter to the story? Not one bit. Only fanboys would worry about details like that. The E-A and the Excelsior would have beat the BoP to Khitomer in TUC if they had that superfast drive from TFF, but they didn't and the story didn't suffer.

If transwarp beaming is forgotten next movie, my attitude's the same with all the other Trek sequels: so what? While we're at it, what are the odds that Red Matter will be forgotten, too? I'd say pretty good, but its absence shouldn't detract from the movie, either.
 
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Like the:

-Genesis device
-resurrection through Genesis
-Starfleet-made Transwarp drive
-those fancy warp highways that got the E-A to the center of the galaxy
-the Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked
-the sun destroyer torpedo (to be fair, DS9 did use it)
-Borg time travel
-the fountain of youth particles

It's weird how Trek tends to toss aside all these wonderful toys...

It's not like we knew how fast the SFS transwarp was supposed to be, nor that the project was unsuccessful. For all we know, the 1701-A had transwarp and all ships from then on. On VOY they said ships used to be "half as fast" back then, which makes sense.
And Genesis didn't work. The only thing it still could be used for is a weapon. And the Feds wouldn't use those I guess.
.
Having the Klingons have a cloaked ship that can fire does not pose any problems, since the cloaking and tracking tech would surely evolve (also supported by "The Emissary").

And they never said how they got to the center in the Galaxy in TFF. Which is better than introducing transwarp channels that again would have to be forgotten.

No the Transwarp beaming thingy belongs in that other class of "forgotten things". Things that just have to be forgotten to keep everything working.
Like VOY's infinite velocity transwarp, the cure-to-all diseases-transporter from TNG and the TVH/TOS slingshot effect.
It might have been better if future Spock had just linked some magic future tricorder with Scotty's computer or something.
 
No the Transwarp beaming thingy belongs in that other class of "forgotten things". Things that just have to be forgotten to keep everything working.

If transwarp beaming is forgotten in the next movie, this is exactly what I've been trying to say in so many words, bud. As I said in one post above you:

If transwarp beaming is forgotten next movie, my attitude's the same with all the other Trek sequels: so what?
The explanations are largely irrelevant. If the tech is there, nice. If not, no Trek movie really suffered story-wise from forgetting the previous film's technology.
 
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If not, no Trek movie really suffered story-wise from forgetting the previous film's technology.

The point is that no Trek movie has as of now forgotten about important technology, especially not the ones you cited.


Nemesis forgot that shuttles had transporters, too, yeah, okay. And that did fuck up the story, because Data died because of a giant plothole.


While we're at it, what are the odds that Red Matter will be forgotten, too? I'd say pretty good, but its absence shouldn't detract from the movie, either.

What do you mean by "forgotten"? The Red Matter that Spock brought with him is fully used up, and nobody but the Vulcans of the 24th century can reproduce it.




I don't like it when movies of a franchise are inconsistent. Period. You'd probably also find excuses or say "I don't care" when they suddenly bring Vulcan back in the next movie without explanation. But I would be bothered by that.
 
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