Slow Lane? Flying in circles?

[Art Vandelay]

Reading the recent thread about a certain "plot hole" got me thinking about one thing that had always irked me about the later seasons of Voyager.

In the beginning, their voyage seemed to advance logically. Once they had passed Vidiian/Kazon space, we never saw these species again outside of flashbacks.

Then there were two big jumps forward in both Timeless and Dark Frontier, which took years (or was it decades?) off of their journey.

Then we suddenly meet the Malon again in Juggernaut. How did they get there? Colour me surprised!

After that, another big jump forward in The Voyager Conspiracy.

About a year after that, there's Flesh and Blood in which we meet the Hirogen using the holo technology they acquired from Voyager two and a half years and three big jumps ago. Insert a picture of my face here, frowning and shaking my head in disbelief.

Not to mention the fact that in the third-to-last episode, our valiant crew stumbles upon a Talaxian colony of all things (although I love the episode and the emotional closure it provides for Neelix).

What happened? Did they fly in circles? Did the writers think I wouldn't notice?

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Hirogen had a subspace communications network that reached all the way to the alpha quadrant and was thousands of years old. They probably have more than the one Janeway killed in an hour. The Hirogen are nomads and have covered a LOT of ground, and probably uploaded the holotech blueprints to their internet, giving any Hirogen in range of the network access to the tech.

As for the Talaxians, who knows the origin of that colony? It could have started with a ship getting lost halfway across the galaxy...

 

[Art Vandelay]

The Hirogen had a subspace communications network that reached all the way to the alpha quadrant and was thousands of years old. They probably have more than the one Janeway killed in an hour. The Hirogen are nomads and have covered a LOT of ground, and probably uploaded the holotech blueprints to their internet, giving any Hirogen in range of the network access to the tech.

It wasn't just that one station that was destroyed. In the episode Hunters, which precedes The Killing Game, the entire network is destroyed/rendered inoperative. There's an energy burst or something that propagates itself throughout its entirety. And since it wasn't the Hirogen's communications network but rather built by an ancient, long-dead civilisation, I don't think there was anybody around who could repair it.

As for the Talaxians, who knows the origin of that colony? It could have started with a ship getting lost halfway across the galaxy...

Yes, but they didn't even ask the Talaxians: "How did you guys get here?" It was treated as the most normal thing ever.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Um no.

They ran from Talax during the war with the Haarkonans 15 years back as dated during the episode Jetrel.

BRAX: Why don't we just go back to Talax? We could live there.
DEXA: It's still controlled by the Haakonians. They don't treat Talaxians very well. That's why we left.
BRAX: Maybe Neelix could go with us and we could fight them. Take the planet back.
NEELIX: If tomorrow's negotiations go well, you won't have to go anywhere.

Refugees.

I think they had a ten year head start on Neelix, but they must have found an inconvenient wormhole while they were scampering away.

But...

I prefer to think that that entire adventure was just Janeway losing a battle of wits with one of those salt eating illusion casting mantrap creatures Kirk pwned back in the day book ending with arguably the first episode of TOS (production numbers, vs air-dates vs story continuity) again highlighting the irrelevancy of Endgame as more like some silly appendix or postscript rather than the finale.

 

[Art Vandelay]

^ How does the Talaxians being refugees explain the fact that they managed to cover the incredible distance within 15 years? Did they have to run that far? How did they do it? Could they have given Janeway & Co. some pointers? A wormhole, a spatial anomaly - those would be good explanations. It wouldn't have hurt to throw that in.

That portion of the script you quote kind of makes my point - by suggesting that Talax is just around the corner, and that they could return anytime.

But granted, Flesh and Blood is much more "carelessly inconsistent" than Homestead.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Hirogen had a subspace communications network that reached all the way to the alpha quadrant and was thousands of years old. They probably have more than the one Janeway killed in an hour. The Hirogen are nomads and have covered a LOT of ground, and probably uploaded the holotech blueprints to their internet, giving any Hirogen in range of the network access to the tech.

It wasn't just that one station that was destroyed. In the episode Hunters, which precedes The Killing Game, the entire network is destroyed/rendered inoperative. There's an energy burst or something that propagates itself throughout its entirety. And since it wasn't the Hirogen's communications network but rather built by an ancient, long-dead civilisation, I don't think there was anybody around who could repair it.

Where was it said an ancient civilization built it? It's ancient, but I'm pretty sure it's Hirogen. They've been milling around the DQ, hunting prey for a long time.

 

[Timo]

...The fact that the Hirogen and the 8472 are on a roughly equal footing in "Prey" is IMHO sufficient justification for the idea that both can also span our galaxy with equal ease. Both species have the technological drop on our heroes, and generally triumph over the heroes in combat so trivially that it isn't even worth showing on screen ("Killing Game"). It's too bad that some later Hirogen material takes some of the tech edge off them...

Talaxians have a bad case of wanderlust, that much is established at every encounter. They are found basically everywhere except their homeworld. That doesn't explain how they move across great distances so easily, of course - but another aspect of their life might. Namely, they are also shown mingling with other civilizations with ease. Hitching a ride on a vessel of a slightly more advanced culture ought to help in completing a century-long voyage in a decade; Neelix is a case in point.

No excuse for the Malon. Except perhaps their fascination with wormholes and other ways to get their waste very, very far away from their own nest.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

^ How does the Talaxians being refugees explain the fact that they managed to cover the incredible distance within 15 years? Did they have to run that far? How did they do it? Could they have given Janeway & Co. some pointers? A wormhole, a spatial anomaly - those would be good explanations. It wouldn't have hurt to throw that in.

That portion of the script you quote kind of makes my point - by suggesting that Talax is just around the corner, and that they could return anytime.

But granted, Flesh and Blood is much more "carelessly inconsistent" than Homestead.

They were using a TOS-style warp drive, which gets you from Earth to the centre of the galaxy in a day (STV, TAS), and covers 1000 light-years in 12 hours (can't remember the episode name!)

There's "carelessly inconsistant"

It is screwy... but I'm used to that sort of thing in Star Trek. Sorry.

 

[Art Vandelay]

^ Timo, thanks for the contribution, those are the most well-thought out arguments I have read so far.

Where was it said an ancient civilization built it? It's ancient, but I'm pretty sure it's Hirogen. They've been milling around the DQ, hunting prey for a long time.

Okay, I had to look this up on Memory Alpha now. The network is more than 100,000 years old. Its origin is unknown, and in the 24th century it is claimed by the Hirogen. Also, way back when the Hirogen had a designated homeworld and had not yet devoted their entire culture to the hunt, they were technically very advanced. So they might as well have created the network (the facts are inconclusive), but the fact that it is decrepit by the time they meet Voyager probably means they have forgotten how to perform maintenance on it. I don't see them repairing the network after it is disabled in Hunters. Which does not proclude the possibility that they still have some other advanced means of propulsion and/or communication that could have propelled them and/or the holotechnology specs ahead of Voyager.

Wow, I answered my own question there. I guess the next time I watch Flesh and Blood I'll be much less irked than I used to. If that doesn't give this thread a right to exist, I don't know what else should! I love the Trek BBS.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hunters don't build.

That's why that Alpha wanted Janeway's holotech.

Their culture was dying.

They wouldn't even get to together to fuck and make new little hunters.

that means no planets and no colonies and no cities.

Just millions of small ships hooning about kicking the shit out of prey.

Now a thousand years ago, or a hundred thousand years the Hirogen might have been a more diverse culture that could have had architects and engineers and even citizens who saw profit in raising families. However that's like comparing a Roman Citizen to a Modern Itallian and exactly why it's a capital offence to set a port of call on Tallos IV. The Hirogen had such wonderful technology that they never had to do anything ever again except hunt and after a few thousand years hunt is all they could do.

And Art, love the name, big fan, when and why answers some of your questions if not how, sorry, but Dexa said that they had a caravan of Six Ships which settled on one planet which they were eventually chased off, and then when they got to the asteroid they dismantled their ships to make their colony and had been their for 5 years.

One of those ships was put back together for Neelix to save the day with a last stand so these vessels must have been using a comparable technology to what was underpinning Neelix's ship in Voyager cargobay.

Sloooooooooowwwww.

Although you have to recall that Kim was out this far, 40 thousand light years form Caretaker back half way through the first season when they were using the Sikaran transit system in Prime Factors.

That's why he always looked so bored.

Been there, done that.

Janeway was making him redo his trip to Earth AGAIN because he didn't do it her way!

10 years before Prime Factors maybe the Sikarans weren't so stringent with sharing their technology, however considering the size of their ships, the Talaxian ships could have been transported in pieces to the other side of the quadrant and then reassembled half way to Earth at their leisure now that there was no threat from being sent to a Haarkonan work camp.