Slipstream, Warp, and Transwarp

[uniderth]

Concering a delayed reaction of the valiant crew man. Spock says that the Valiant was swept half a light year out of the galaxy by a magnetic storm. Kirk then postulates that the old impulse engines were strong enough. Meaning that the space warp engines were probably off line and/or damaged. Either way, the current of the magnetic storm was too much for the Valiant. Magnetic storms probably do not travel faster than light; so we can assume that the Valiant was traveling through the barrier and out to that 1/2 light year point at sub-light speeds. That's a multi year journey. I doubt it would have taken that long before the crewman manifested his abilities. We could imagine that after being thrown clear, the Valiant crew repaired their warp engines to return to the galaxy. Either that or they faced another multiyear journey back into the galaxy. It is stated that upon returning is when the ship encountered some unknown force. It then that the "seven, no make that six" crew members died. I makes me wonder if a sublight journey through the barrier would have the same disastrous effects.

In looking at the scene in question. Kirk says, "Helmsman, take us out of here." Mitchell then presses a few buttons on his penal. Dehner is then zapped, a second or two later Mitchell is zapped. Kirk then runs to the controls shouting "Helmsman! Lateral power." Spock then goes to the controls and takes over. I think its ambiguous enough for either of our opinions to be valid. It seems there was enough time for Mitchell to have started turning the ship around. Yet, it was only a second or two before Dehner got zapped. Arguably not enough time to complete a turning maneuver.

I'm going to stick with my directional theory.

 

[FormerLurker]

There actually may could have been as many as eleven, but only Mitchell and Dehner survived (there were nine others with ESP ability or potential, but they all died upon their exposure to the Barrier).

True enough. We'll never know if exposure to the barrier enhances ones ESPer abilities, as they never discussed it.

Actually, they did discuss that it only effected people with ESP ability or potential. Mitchell and Dehner were the only ones of the eleven whose brains weren't fried, but they also had very high ESP quotients. It's not a stretch at all that the Barrier enhances the ESPer abilities of such people, especially given that the same thing happened aboard the Valiant some 200 years earlier (several crewmembers died after it encountered the Barrier, except for one who survived with enhanced ESP ability).

Please stop telling me I'm wrong about things I'm not wrong about. They never discussed whether normals got their ESPer abilities enhanced to ESPer levels. If I can't make it any plainer than that, the problem doesn't lie with me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Concering a delayed reaction of the valiant crew man. Spock says that the Valiant was swept half a light year out of the galaxy by a magnetic storm. Kirk then postulates that the old impulse engines were strong enough. Meaning that the space warp engines were probably off line and/or damaged. Either way, the current of the magnetic storm was too much for the Valiant. Magnetic storms probably do not travel faster than light; so we can assume that the Valiant was traveling through the barrier and out to that 1/2 light year point at sub-light speeds. That's a multi year journey.

Maybe not. The Enterprise was able to reach Delta Vega on impulse in just days. The Valiant may have been able to cross that 1/2 lightyear in the same amount of time. All we really know about impulse power is that it's presumably not as powerful as warp power, but there have been instances in various Trek incarnations of ships crossing short interplanetary distances relatively quickly on impulse power (the Romulan Bird of Prey in "Balance of Terror," the Enterprise-D's saucer section in TNG's "Encounter At Farpoint").

For all we know, the Valiant may not even have had warp engines to begin with (it's odd that Kirk mentioned only its impulse engines and not its warp drive). In such a case, the Valiant may have had an impulse power only form of FTL like the Romulan Bird-of-Prey.

 

[FormerLurker]

To me that says they didn't have an antimatter reactor as a warp core.

 

[C.E. Evans]

True enough. We'll never know if exposure to the barrier enhances ones ESPer abilities, as they never discussed it.

Actually, they did discuss that it only effected people with ESP ability or potential. Mitchell and Dehner were the only ones of the eleven whose brains weren't fried, but they also had very high ESP quotients. It's not a stretch at all that the Barrier enhances the ESPer abilities of such people, especially given that the same thing happened aboard the Valiant some 200 years earlier (several crewmembers died after it encountered the Barrier, except for one who survived with enhanced ESP ability).

Please stop telling me I'm wrong about things I'm not wrong about. They never discussed whether normals got their ESPer abilities enhanced to ESPer levels. If I can't make it any plainer than that, the problem doesn't lie with me.

WTF?

Sorry, but "the problem" does lie with you.

The thing they were discussing--taken from onscreen dialogue--was that the Barrier only impacted people with ESP ability or potential. No one said anything about it happening to non-ESPers, so what are you talking about?

To me that says they didn't have an antimatter reactor as a warp core.

It could be taken that they had an impulse-powered FTL drive.

 

[uniderth]

That may be true that impulse power does refer to the type of system used to power the ftl capabilities. However, as far as I know a magnetic storm is still a sublight phenomenon. Since they were overpowered by the magnetic storm ("the old impulse engines weren't strong enough"), they still would have to be swept 1/2 a light year out of the galaxy as sublight speeds.

 

[C.E. Evans]

That may be true that impulse power does refer to the type of system used to power the ftl capabilities. However, as far as I know a magnetic storm is still a sublight phenomenon.

It actually might not be upon further thought. It could have swept the Valiant a 1/2 light-year at FTL velocities not too unlike a Bajoran lightship (it kind of would have to be really, IMO). The cause and nature of the "magnetic storm" was never specified, so there might have been a subspace or some other form of technobabble phenomena behind it that the Valiant wasn't prepared for.

 

[uniderth]

Agreed. The phenomenon most certainly could have been some sort of inverse neutrino klaxonic phase disruption that, based on the primitive technology at the time, was identified as a magnetic storm. However, no indication of this was given in the episode. Additionally, the only reason why I see the ftl exit theory as being attractive is for the journey to be reasonably completed within the time frame of an episode. However, I find the sublight exit much more interesting; as the crew would have to survive for years stuck in this storm with only their ship to sustain them. It would be a fascinating story of survival.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Agreed. The phenomenon most certainly could have been some sort of inverse neutrino klaxonic phase disruption that, based on the primitive technology at the time, was identified as a magnetic storm. However, no indication of this was given in the episode.

Which doesn't mean that it didn't happen, though and could fit the episode's narrative easily if it did. And really, in a fictional universe with mystical energy barriers around both the center and edge of the Galaxy, subspace fields, sorts of spatial and temporal anomalies, and various other wild occurrences in Trek, it's a more plausible thing than not in hindsight.

 

[T'Girl]

And I think T'Girl quoted who she intended to quote. She responded to the information accurately.

No, because she quoted Timo, but put my name there in her post. I didn't write that. She quoted the wrong person as I said.

FormerLurker is correct, it was my intent to post the quote that I did, it was the right quote, just attributed to the wrong person.

Boo boo.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Transwarp simply means faster than conventional warp speed. I think the quantumn slipstream drive was a mechanism for achieving transwarp speeds. There are probably other methods of transwarp propulsion, of which quantum slipstream is just one.

Warp = regular, speed-of-plot* travel

Anything else = something terrifyingly faster, but very vaguely defined, and still 100% dependant on the plot.

*And here's a chart I made earlier, showing just how insanely the speed-of-plot varies:

Transwarp simply means faster than conventional warp speed. I think the quantumn slipstream drive was a mechanism for achieving transwarp speeds. There are probably other methods of transwarp propulsion, of which quantum slipstream is just one.

Basically this.

This also reminds me of the various speeds from "Spaceballs:"

*Light Speed
*Ridiculous Speed
*Ludicrous Speed
*Plaid



Off the top of my head, even though it wasn't explained, I think the 'God' entity from TFF guided the ship - Enterprise - through the center of the Galaxy. (At least if some story wanted to give a fanon explanation).

Kind of like the previous explanations in the thread of guiding or modifying the ship for trips that would take years.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Between my last post and this current post, I was playing STO - Star Trek Online - and (while going into Transwarp at various points in the game) I was thinking that 'transwarp' is something like the fold operation from "Robotech" or "Macross." For example, you're transporting from one area of space to the next...hence the name 'transwarp.'

It's a shame we never saw it onscreen. It definitely would have made sense for Sulu to use in "Star Trek VI" when he's speeding to assist the Enterprise.

HELMSMAN: She'll fly apart!

SULU: Then fly her apart then!

HELMSMAN: Sir, don't we have transwarp drive?

To be fair, one can't transwarp everywhere all willy nilly. IIRC, in STO, there are conduits at certain points or certain areas of space to allow transwarp to occur. Too, there is the 'cooldown' for the transwarp drive. So, we could say that the Excelsior probably used it - the drive - prior to receiving the notice that their sister ship was in danger.

I should note that in STO, all ships seem to have a limited capability to transwarp to different areas. Yet, the Excelsior class has the ability pretty much built in to transwarp wherever without restrictions. Although, the player is told that it can break down at times (e.g. Scotty's line about 'the more they overthink the plumbling').

 

[kirkfan]

Transwarp apparently involves the use of transwarp wormholes.

Slipstream apparently involves the use of slipstream wormholes.

The main difference being that apparently you can make a U-turn in a slipstream wormhole. That could come in handy if in mid trip you realize that you've forgotten something...

 

[tharpdevenport]

Transwarp must have its limits in speed. Thanks once again to Voyager throwing a wrench into the works, crossing the warp threshold into warp ten, means you could be anywhere in the universe, occupying every point in space at the same time (as I recall that last line). Paris achieved this in a shuttle using transwarp.

So, two things are certain: one, at a certain point it doesn't matter how fast you are going, you seem to reach a terminal warp velocity; two, at a certain speed it's bad for your health.


The TOS Enterprise achieved warp eleven or so in one episodes, and the Enterprise D from "All Good Things..." future and Beverloy's ship were ordered at warp thirteen. But I recall reading the warp speeds charts were re-drawn between the original series and TNG, so there's no telling how fast Kirk's ship was going. I assume future warp speed charts are re-drawn as well.

 

[Anwar]

Transwarp isn't a set term, it just refers to anything faster than normal Warp Drive.

It's like the variable "X" in equations. It can mean anything needed for the equation, it refers to the Unknown.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I was trying to help pin it down some based on established Trek knowledge. Though to be fair, it can't mean anything as a variable, based on the information I provided. We know the speed occurs after the warp threshold and somewhere below warp ten.

Plus, while it has no set term, it has to mean something. A horse buggy travels, a bicycle travels, a car travels, and a train travels, but everything is faster than walking so each word or phrase to describe then refers to some kind of other device/technology. Same with transwarp. This is why I hate it when stuff like this is thrown at us, not really explained, and left for some future writer to maybe further mess with and potentially make it even more confusing.

 

[FormerLurker]

Joel, your description of transwarp from STO sounds suspiciously like Frank Herbert's Folding Space from the Dune series. I'm wondering if the programmers were just lazy and substituted that idea for the unknown methodology of transwarp.

 

[kirkfan]

I think for every one's sake we should agree that Threshold is the psychedelic delusion of Janeway after she accidentally took a high dose of LSD...

 

[Enterprise1701]

VOY - "Vis a Vis" had the one-off episode coaxial warp drive, which "folded" space to get around. According to Doug Drexler, designer of the briefly-seen 26th century Enterprise-J in ENT - "Azati Prime", the Enterprise-J uses coaxial warp drive.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

VOY - "Vis a Vis" had the one-off episode coaxial warp drive, which "folded" space to get around. According to Doug Drexler, designer of the briefly-seen 26th century Enterprise-J in ENT - "Azati Prime", the Enterprise-J uses coaxial warp drive.

How about that ship from the future that they find in ENT that uses a temporal displacement drive or something like that? You know the one the sulibans AND the Tholians try unsuccessfully to steal from the Enterprise.