Slight error in Star Trek III?

[Norrin Radd]

Consider the following exchange at the end of Search for Spock:

Spock: My father says that you have been my friend. You came back for me.
Kirk: You would have done the same for me.
Spock: Why would you do this?
Kirk: Because the needs of the one... outweigh the needs of the many.
Spock: [pacing] I have been and ever shall be your friend.
Kirk: Yes. Yes, Spock.
Spock: Ship, out of danger?
Kirk: You saved the ship. You saved us all. Don't you remember?
Spock: Jim. Your name is Jim.

First of all, I like this scene. Probably one of the best in that movie.

But I've gotta ask how would Spock remember the line "I have been and ever shall be your friend" when he had actually transferred his spirit to McCoy before he said those words in Star Trek II?

I mean, there is that scene in Spock's quarters before Khan's attack when he says it. But how would that moment be particularly memorable to him that he'd say it to Jim now?

 

[Candlelight]

You're taking about a character who came back from the dead by being tied into an aging planet.

We're just lucky he didn't say "oh by the way, in a few years you're gonna be trapped inside this energy ribbon and this bald guy is gonna ask you to go with him; well don't"

 

[Outpost4]

Presumably McCoy heard the dying Spock say that to Kirk, which means his katra also heard the line.

 

[FalTorPan]

But I've gotta ask how would Spock remember the line "I have been and ever shall be your friend" when he had actually transferred his spirit to McCoy before he said those words in Star Trek II?

You've assumed that Spock transferred his katra -- his living spirit -- to McCoy before he entered the reactor room. If that had been the case, then what motivated Spock's still-living body to save the ship and have its heart-to-heart death speech with Kirk?

I tend to think of the "Remember" exchange as establishing a mental link that Spock later used to transfer his katra -- either in its entirety after his body died, or "slowly" until his body died, after which the rest was transferred.

The whole thing is hokey, but this explanation makes a bit of sense to me.

 

[Indysolo]

Doesn't Spock say at the end of II and the prologue of III, "I have been and always shall be your friend" and not "ever shall be"?

Neil

 

[Alrik]

Presumably McCoy heard the dying Spock say that to Kirk, which means his katra also heard the line.

That's what I figured. He and McCoy had just spent a couple of hours being connected by Maddam Jumper Cables, so I figure thats got to transfer a little more info than just your standard Mind Meld. And McCoy was right there with Scotty to witness the death speach.

 

[trevanian]

Doesn't Spock say at the end of II and the prologue of III, "I have been and always shall be your friend" and not "ever shall be"?

Neil

Yeah, and that bugged me even on opening day (though I was more pissed by almost everything else in the 2nd half of the movie.)

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Presumably McCoy heard the dying Spock say that to Kirk, which means his katra also heard the line.

That's what I figured. He and McCoy had just spent a couple of hours being connected by Maddam Jumper Cables, so I figure thats got to transfer a little more info than just your standard Mind Meld. And McCoy was right there with Scotty to witness the death speach.

I figure that the "katra" is little more than a copy of Spock's memories and perceptions, no more "Spock" than the cloned body on the Genesis Planet. In short, Spock didn't return from the dead so much as new Spock picked up where the old Spock left off. To quote non-canon Spock: a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

An easier explanation for the "friend" line: Spock said it to Kirk earlier in Trek II, as he handed command to Kirk. Just as old Spock was moved to remind Kirk of it as he died, New Spock was moved to remind himself of it now that Kirk went to such great lengths to bring him "back." And as you say: the katra in McCoy's head witnessed Spock's death and remembered seeing himself say it.

 

[Tulin]

Doesn't Spock say at the end of II and the prologue of III, "I have been and always shall be your friend" and not "ever shall be"?

Neil

That ALWAYS bugged me, too.

 

[Maurice]

You're all forgetting this...

57A INT. SPOCK'S QUARTERS 57A

...


KIRK
I would not presume to debate you.

SPOCK
That is wise. In any case, were I
to invoke logic, logic clearly dictates
that the needs of the many outweigh
the needs of the few.

KIRK
Or the one.

Spock inclines his head.

SPOCK
You are my superior officer. You
are also my friend. I have been
and always shall be yours.

 

[trevanian]

You're all forgetting this...

57A INT. SPOCK'S QUARTERS 57A

...


KIRK
I would not presume to debate you.

SPOCK
That is wise. In any case, were I
to invoke logic, logic clearly dictates
that the needs of the many outweigh
the needs of the few.

KIRK
Or the one.

Spock inclines his head.

SPOCK
You are my superior officer. You
are also my friend. I have been
and always shall be yours.

"always shall be" is not "ever shall be"

 

[Indysolo]

Yes, "ever shall be" is really the slight error in this scene.

Neil

 

[Maurice]

You're all forgetting this...

57A INT. SPOCK'S QUARTERS 57A

...


KIRK
I would not presume to debate you.

SPOCK
That is wise. In any case, were I
to invoke logic, logic clearly dictates
that the needs of the many outweigh
the needs of the few.

KIRK
Or the one.

Spock inclines his head.

SPOCK
You are my superior officer. You
are also my friend. I have been
and always shall be yours.

"always shall be" is not "ever shall be"

Which wasn't my point at all. I was addressing the original critique of how ressurected Spock would know he'd said "I have been and ever shall be your friend". The bigger question is how he recalled, "The ship...out of danger?"But if his Katra was melded with McCoy's he'd maybe recall it third-hand.

 

[Kaziarl]

Maddam Jumper Cables

 

[Amaris]

Maddam Jumper Cables

Yeah, this wins a from me, too.

Oh, and hey guys, cut Spock some slack. He came back from the dead. I think it entitles him to a little confusion.


J.

 

[Timo]

The bigger question is how he recalled, "The ship...out of danger?" But if his Katra was melded with McCoy's he'd maybe recall it third-hand.

Umm, why should he have to "recall" it? It was a natural question for "old Spock" to ask back when he was dying, and it was a natural question for "new Spock" to ask when he awoke from his little operation and saw that there was no longer a ship around him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Brutal Strudel]

You're all forgetting this...

57A INT. SPOCK'S QUARTERS 57A

...


KIRK
I would not presume to debate you.

SPOCK
That is wise. In any case, were I
to invoke logic, logic clearly dictates
that the needs of the many outweigh
the needs of the few.

KIRK
Or the one.

Spock inclines his head.

SPOCK
You are my superior officer. You
are also my friend. I have been
and always shall be yours.

Well, not all of us. I kinda referred to this scene a cople of posts before you posted this.

 

[Meredith]

I always though spock and vulcans were mainly touch telepathic, with bonds that could be strengthened.

 

[Ghel]

"I have been and always shall be. . . "

The fact that he remembers this line proves that Spock thought that line up before melding with McCoy and held on to it until that last, dramatic moment. Apparently, the human side of Spock has a flair for the dramatic after all!!!!

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, the remembering of that one line of TWOK dialogue is a nit considering when Spock placed his katra in McCoy and then died. But considering that this is a movie where a dead man with green blood and pointed ears was resurrected from the dead by a magic planet, I can forgive it.