Sleepy Hollow Season 2 Discussion

[Christopher]

I still don't understand the Katrina hate. They needed an expert on witchcraft to deal with what they dealt with. And Hawley made a good supply guy, isn't he where Ichabod got his crossbow?

The problem most people have isn't with the characters in concept so much as with the actors' lack of chemistry with the leads and/or their relative mediocrity as actors. Although for me, the problem with Katrina this season was largely to do with the writing. In season 1, she'd essentially been a McGuffin -- the goal that motivated Ichabod's quest and occasionally advanced the plot but wasn't really a source of emotional investment for the audience. Once she was out of Purgatory, it was necessary to define a new role for her, and the writers never really did that effectively. She was never as good a character as the Mills sisters because she was a more conventional female character, defined more by men's desire for her than by her own goals or motivations. By the time they finally gave her a worthwhile and potentially interesting motivation of her own -- bringing back the witch community -- it was too late.

And Hawley never seemed to serve much of a purpose. He was a source of supernatural artifacts and had a shady past, but Jenny already filled that role. He was initially a skeptic, but that was dealt with very quickly, and they had Captain Reyes to fill that role. And he was intended as a love interest for Abbie, but there was no chemistry between the actors, and even the producers abandoned that attempt. But he kept dominating the stories at the expense of Jenny and Captain Irving, two much more successful and well-liked characters who were largely marginalized for the first half-season. Frankly, it felt from the start that Hawley was the result of some network suit's note to increase the white presence in the show. Maybe it wasn't, but that's what it felt like. As if there weren't already enough reasons that the fans were alienated by Hawley.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

I still don't understand the Katrina hate. They needed an expert on witchcraft to deal with what they dealt with. And Hawley made a good supply guy, isn't he where Ichabod got his crossbow?

The problem most people have isn't with the characters in concept so much as with the actors' lack of chemistry with the leads and/or their relative mediocrity as actors. Although for me, the problem with Katrina this season was largely to do with the writing. In season 1, she'd essentially been a McGuffin -- the goal that motivated Ichabod's quest and occasionally advanced the plot but wasn't really a source of emotional investment for the audience. Once she was out of Purgatory, it was necessary to define a new role for her, and the writers never really did that effectively. She was never as good a character as the Mills sisters because she was a more conventional female character, defined more by men's desire for her than by her own goals or motivations. By the time they finally gave her a worthwhile and potentially interesting motivation of her own -- bringing back the witch community -- it was too late.

And Hawley never seemed to serve much of a purpose. He was a source of supernatural artifacts and had a shady past, but Jenny already filled that role. He was initially a skeptic, but that was dealt with very quickly, and they had Captain Reyes to fill that role. And he was intended as a love interest for Abbie, but there was no chemistry between the actors, and even the producers abandoned that attempt. But he kept dominating the stories at the expense of Jenny and Captain Irving, two much more successful and well-liked characters who were largely marginalized for the first half-season. Frankly, it felt from the start that Hawley was the result of some network suit's note to increase the white presence in the show. Maybe it wasn't, but that's what it felt like. As if there weren't already enough reasons that the fans were alienated by Hawley.

And he was a very poor actor, which stood out even more than the poor chemistry.

I liked Katrina and I totally agree with your assessment. If they could redefine her role, say as a spirit guide. I would love for her to back. I personally think that Ichabod and Katrina did have chemistry but only in the past when they were on equal footing. In the future, Katrina never grew or evolved like Ichabod has. The actress gave everything for the character, the writers let her down. It's truly the most missed opportunity on Sleepy Hollow.

 

[shapeshifter]

There was chemistry between them, imo, in the beginning.
IIRC, that chemistry was lost when Ichabod began having doubt in her about something, (forgot what exactly) she had done.
Turned out she had pure motives for doing it but the damage had been done, Ichabod couldn't get over that.
She lied about it and ruined everything.

His turning away from her is, I thought, the reason she let herself be led to the darkside. She screwed up and she knew she had so there was no longer anything to lose.

 

[Saga]

i thought the best Ichabod/Katrina episode was the one about the painting. that episode showed they, IMO, had chemistry. and it was fun seeing them working together and not fighting.

but after a certain point it seemed like she cared more about saving the Headless Horseman than Ichabod. plus the whole evil witch thing has been done to death.

 

[Christopher]

There was chemistry between them, imo, in the beginning.
IIRC, that chemistry was lost, when Ichabod began having doubt in her about something, (forgot what exactly) she had done.
Turned out she had pure motives for doing it but the damage had been done, Ichabod couldn't get over that.
She lied about it and ruined everything.

You're talking about story points. "Chemistry" means the energy and affinity between actors. Two characters can have a beautiful, passionate relationship in the script, but if the actors have no chemistry between them, then the romance will be lifeless no matter what the words say. Or, two characters may be written as not liking each other at all, but the actors could click marvelously. That's why series writers tend to change their plans based on how well or poorly the actors click. On paper, Hawley and Abbie were attracted to each other, but the actors just didn't have a connection, so the writers gave up on the relationship.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I had no problem with either Katrina or Hawley, it's just that neither one was used never well. Neither was Reyes. Neither was Irving in season two, and that was the worst of all because he had been used so well in season one. That doesn't mean that some or all of these characters couldn't have been developed. I didn't care for Jenny at first, either, but she kind of grew on me over time as the character evolved.

 

[Vanyel]

I still don't understand the Katrina hate. They needed an expert on witchcraft to deal with what they dealt with. And Hawley made a good supply guy, isn't he where Ichabod got his crossbow?

The problem most people have isn't with the characters in concept so much as with the actors' lack of chemistry with the leads and/or their relative mediocrity as actors. Although for me, the problem with Katrina this season was largely to do with the writing. In season 1, she'd essentially been a McGuffin -- the goal that motivated Ichabod's quest and occasionally advanced the plot but wasn't really a source of emotional investment for the audience. Once she was out of Purgatory, it was necessary to define a new role for her, and the writers never really did that effectively. She was never as good a character as the Mills sisters because she was a more conventional female character, defined more by men's desire for her than by her own goals or motivations. By the time they finally gave her a worthwhile and potentially interesting motivation of her own -- bringing back the witch community -- it was too late.

And Hawley never seemed to serve much of a purpose. He was a source of supernatural artifacts and had a shady past, but Jenny already filled that role. He was initially a skeptic, but that was dealt with very quickly, and they had Captain Reyes to fill that role. And he was intended as a love interest for Abbie, but there was no chemistry between the actors, and even the producers abandoned that attempt. But he kept dominating the stories at the expense of Jenny and Captain Irving, two much more successful and well-liked characters who were largely marginalized for the first half-season. Frankly, it felt from the start that Hawley was the result of some network suit's note to increase the white presence in the show. Maybe it wasn't, but that's what it felt like. As if there weren't already enough reasons that the fans were alienated by Hawley.

Katrina was a good character, she was just out of place and couldn't handle it as well as Ichabod. Her being more conventional and defined by men's desire for her came out of her 18th century upbringing. You can take the witch out of the 18th century but you can't take the 18th century out of the witch. Ichabod still seems a bit out of place. Henry seemed to be the only one to fully adapt to 20th/21st century life, most likely because he had time to adapt. The only thing Katrina had to hold onto was Ichabod, but her not being a witness made her, no matter how hard Ichabod tried, the outsider. Henry then became what she could hold onto. Henry used that against her, turned her into Dark Katrina and she was lost.

There are other witches out there. That priest from the first episode for example was one. They'll need to find another to teach Abbie how to use magic. Katrina was an asset and she needs replacing. Hawley I still think came around not for the Mills sisters as for whoever is bankrolling him. Franklin was surprised that there was no one left to help. I think he was collecting magical objects for those who are still around and ready to help the witnesses. That he is a cad and chasing the skirts of both Mills sisters is just part of who he is and in the end he seemed to have settled for Jenny.

So I think season three will be the return of Hawley, or a Hawley like character, a member of the society that Franklin spoke of, a witch to train Abbie and a new demon to take over the apocalypse. Three more people to help the Witnesses will make the group 7 people strong and 7 is usually considered a number of Biblical significance.

 

[Christopher]

Her being more conventional and defined by men's desire for her came out of her 18th century upbringing. You can take the witch out of the 18th century but you can't take the 18th century out of the witch.

That's not true. It's not about her as a character, it's about story structure and the writers' decisions about what role to place her in. They started out defining her as a goal for the male lead rather than someone who had goals of her own, and once she was out and about and needed a role to define her, the writers floundered at finding one.

And the potential was there. Just being an 18th-century woman didn't make her passive. Katrina was defined as a secret agent, a powerful witch, and a player in Washington's master plan against the Apocalypse. She was the catalyst for the whole series, the person responsible for the spell that brought Ichabod to the 21st century. She was anything but passive as a person in her own world. But she was placed in a passive role within the story, and the active and important things she did were more described or depicted in retrospect than a central part of the advancing narrative. Her main role in season 1 was as a catalyst for other characters. And in season 2, at first they tried to continue that by keeping her prisoner, and then once she was free and reunited with Crane, the writers put them at odds, since they needed something else to do. But they couldn't seem to make up their minds what they wanted to do with her once she was no longer a prisoner. Like I said, they finally hit upon something with a lot of potential, her desire to bring back her people, but it was an afterthought and it only lasted two episodes before she was killed.

The only thing Katrina had to hold onto was Ichabod, but her not being a witness made her, no matter how hard Ichabod tried, the outsider.

And there's no reason an outsider couldn't be a major player in the story if she had a well-defined agenda of her own to drive her as a character. If they'd come up with the "bring back the witches" motivation for her earlier in the season, it could've given her a lot more agency in the stories and made for interesting conflicts, because she'd be pursuing a goal that we could sympathize with, yet one that would often put her at odds with the heroes.

So I think season three will be the return of Hawley, or a Hawley like character

I doubt that, given how negatively the fanbase reacted to Hawley. That episode where his backstory with Jaime Murray was revealed just in time to give him a reason to leave the show felt like the equivalent of Poochie's return to his home planet, an abrupt change of plans to ditch a character who wasn't working.

Not to mention that with a new showrunner coming in -- and the old one, apparently, let go because the show was tanking in the ratings under his leadership -- it's unlikely there will be much interest in revisiting plot and character threads from Goffman's tenure. New showrunners tend to want to make their own mark and develop their own storylines.

 

[JD]

I think the whole thing with her wanting to rebuild the witches' society was actually not a bad idea, and could have been a really interesting story if they hadn't had her go bad.

 

[Vanyel]

Her being more conventional and defined by men's desire for her came out of her 18th century upbringing. You can take the witch out of the 18th century but you can't take the 18th century out of the witch.

That's not true. It's not about her as a character, it's about story structure and the writers' decisions about what role to place her in. They started out defining her as a goal for the male lead rather than someone who had goals of her own, and once she was out and about and needed a role to define her, the writers floundered at finding one.

And the potential was there. Just being an 18th-century woman didn't make her passive. Katrina was defined as a secret agent, a powerful witch, and a player in Washington's master plan against the Apocalypse. She was the catalyst for the whole series, the person responsible for the spell that brought Ichabod to the 21st century. She was anything but passive as a person in her own world. But she was placed in a passive role within the story, and the active and important things she did were more described or depicted in retrospect than a central part of the advancing narrative. Her main role in season 1 was as a catalyst for other characters. And in season 2, at first they tried to continue that by keeping her prisoner, and then once she was free and reunited with Crane, the writers put them at odds, since they needed something else to do. But they couldn't seem to make up their minds what they wanted to do with her once she was no longer a prisoner. Like I said, they finally hit upon something with a lot of potential, her desire to bring back her people, but it was an afterthought and it only lasted two episodes before she was killed.

But her whole coven was tool used by the Founding Fathers, they deferred to the men, as would be the custom of women in that time period. Her healing spell triggering the events of the series was an accident, the mingling of Ichabod's blood and the Horesman's tying them together, was unknown to her. Witches do exist in 21st century Sleepy Hollow, the priest who tried to chain the Horseman in the first episode is proof of that. He had to learn from someone.

The only thing Katrina had to hold onto was Ichabod, but her not being a witness made her, no matter how hard Ichabod tried, the outsider.

And there's no reason an outsider couldn't be a major player in the story if she had a well-defined agenda of her own to drive her as a character. If they'd come up with the "bring back the witches" motivation for her earlier in the season, it could've given her a lot more agency in the stories and made for interesting conflicts, because she'd be pursuing a goal that we could sympathize with, yet one that would often put her at odds with the heroes.

She was the outsider to their relationship. She understood that there was nothing going on between Abbie and Ichabod, but I doubt Katrina couldn't help but feel the outsider and not really a part of their relationship as Witnesses and see Abbie as an obstacle to her and Ichabod's relationship as husband and wife.

So I think season three will be the return of Hawley, or a Hawley like character

I doubt that, given how negatively the fanbase reacted to Hawley. That episode where his backstory with Jaime Murray was revealed just in time to give him a reason to leave the show felt like the equivalent of Poochie's return to his home planet, an abrupt change of plans to ditch a character who wasn't working.

Not to mention that with a new showrunner coming in -- and the old one, apparently, let go because the show was tanking in the ratings under his leadership -- it's unlikely there will be much interest in revisiting plot and character threads from Goffman's tenure. New showrunners tend to want to make their own mark and develop their own storylines.

Still wouldn't prevent an arms dealer to come to the show. Hawley did have potential. He also had resources and the arms they needed. They will at sometime need someone who can provide supernatural weapons. They can't count on being able to find one by looking around their Batcave. And there must still be people who had the information passed down through these last 200+ years that they can turn to for help. I do believe Franklin did leave the door open for those people to be around, and those to whom Franklin alluded may have Hawley and maybe others looking around the world for magical objects to help the Witnesses or hinder them.

A show's ratings fall are common in the second year, especially among niche shows. 18 episodes I think is still too long. 10 to 12 episodes, basically half a season would be best. 10 episodes works great for Bates Motel and Agent Carter's 8 episode was also great. Each of those shows allowed for character development and Bates Motel excels at making the A plot a character piece and the B plot the series arc.

 

[Christopher]

But her whole coven was tool used by the Founding Fathers, they deferred to the men, as would be the custom of women in that time period.

You're still missing my point. I'm not talking about history in the abstract, I'm talking about the creative decisions made by the writers of a television show here and now. They could have written Katrina as a strong character with agency regardless of the gender norms for her time, just as the writers of the BBC's The Musketeers write Milady de Winter and Constance Bonacieux as strong characters with agency within the context of 1630s France, for example. (Granted, Constance's arc is more about her affair with D'Artagnan than anything else, but she still comes off as a central character whose choices help drive the story rather than a marginalized figure struggling for relevance.) Indeed, it could be argued that the first-season writers were able to make Katrina a stronger character trapped in Purgatory than the second-season writers were able to do when she was free.

She was the outsider to their relationship. She understood that there was nothing going on between Abbie and Ichabod, but I doubt Katrina couldn't help but feel the outsider and not really a part of their relationship as Witnesses and see Abbie as an obstacle to her and Ichabod's relationship as husband and wife.

And that could've been the basis for something interesting if the writers had chosen to focus on that from her perspective, give her a voice and attitude of her own. Instead, they approached it from Ichabod's perspective, and thus Katrina was stuck on the outside. Again, it's as much about the writers' choice of emphasis as it is about the characters themselves. One of the various bits of advice for writers that I've come across is that if a scene isn't working, if it's not coming alive, maybe it's because you're writing it from the wrong character's point of view. Maybe there's another character who has more at stake emotionally or who sees the events from a more interesting and meaningful perspective.

I read an article recently that expressed the opinion that Sleepy Hollow's second-season writers had focused too narrowly on Ichabod and Abbie to the detriment of all the other characters, including Katrina as well as Jenny and Irving and Miss Caroline and the rest, and the sense of a larger world and community that the first season had was largely lost. And I can see their point.

Still wouldn't prevent an arms dealer to come to the show. Hawley did have potential. He also had resources and the arms they needed. They will at sometime need someone who can provide supernatural weapons.

And in the first season, it was Jenny who had those resources and connections. That's why Hawley was unnecessary, and why it was so obnoxious that Jenny got shoved aside in his favor.

And again, it's a matter of story choices and emphasis. Yes, they need a source of weapons, but that doesn't mean the stories need to focus on how they get them. If there's no relevance to the character arcs and the drama of the story, then it can just be dealt with off-camera.

And there must still be people who had the information passed down through these last 200+ years that they can turn to for help. I do believe Franklin did leave the door open for those people to be around, and those to whom Franklin alluded may have Hawley and maybe others looking around the world for magical objects to help the Witnesses or hinder them.

Sure, that may be true in-story, but the reasons Hawley's unlikely to come back come from the real world. For instance, Matt Barr is starring in a TNT pilot. If that series gets picked up, then of course Barr won't be able to return as Hawley.

A show's ratings fall are common in the second year, especially among niche shows.

Don't tell me, I'm just the messenger. It's a fact that they let Mark Goffman go, so evidently they weren't satisfied with his performance.

 

[Aragorn]

John Noble talks about Sleepy Hollow (and other TV roles on TV Line):

After Fringe's 2013 finale, "I really hadn't intended to go straight back into episodic television at all," Noble says. But when Kurtz called with an pitch for Noble to play sin-eater-with-a-secret Henry Parrish, "I was thrilled," the actor says, calling the arc that eventually revealed Henry as Ichabod and Katrina's son, Jeremy, "an actor's gift."

In Season 2, however, the show wandered a bit, and Noble got restless. "They didn't have a clue what to do, and so that meant it was a pretty unsatisfactory year for me," he says. He adds that he and co-star Tom Mison "were hoping to have more scenes together, because that's when it was really interesting, when Tom and I had the shots to bounce off each other. He loved it, and I did, too. And that just didn't happen." Still, Noble says he plans to check in with the Fox series as a viewer. "Obviously, a lot of thought has gone into what to do with Sleepy Hollow. And if this network is investing in another 18 episodes, then they must have had very strong reassurances that there is a major reboot," he says. "I'll be fascinated to see what the reboot is."

 

[RJDiogenes]

I feel bad for him. He's a cool character actor, but he just wasn't used well in season two. I'm glad that Henry won't be back, though.

 

[JD]

Witches do exist in 21st century Sleepy Hollow, the priest who tried to chain the Horseman in the first episode is proof of that. He had to learn from someone.

We saw the priest alive and I believe using witchcraft in the Revolutionary era flashbacks, so apparently he was immortal or at least very very long lived. He could very well have been the very last witch still alive.

 

[auntiehill]

If I remember correctly, it was indeed because he had lived that long.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Variety: Orlando Jones Leaving ‘Sleepy Hollow’ Ahead of Season 3

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Bummer.

 

[Marc]

Variety: Orlando Jones Leaving ‘Sleepy Hollow’ Ahead of Season 3

hmm not happy with the storyline/his role or moviing filming location?

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, hell. And they just got his character straightened out at the end of season two.

I wonder if there was a personality clash behind the scenes. Didn't he make some unflattering comments on Twitter at one point, now that I think of it? Never a good idea to diss your bosses on social media.

 

[Forbin]

Jones surprised me in this show - I never thought of him as much of a dramatic actor, but he did fine. Although I still think his face is better suited to comedy, if that makes any sense.