Slavery & The Jem Hadar

[Marie1]

I think I have it... I'm not sure if I read it, I'm trying to catch up on your other work.

It's a neat subject though- on the surface, my gut is to say it's plainly slavery... but then what they say and do sometimes seems to make me think they, knowing the definition, don't consider themselves slaves... it's weird.

Almost like... some people in a place with fanatical religious beliefs, or say a place that to us mistreats women... but they not only accept it, they may even like it and help it continue... so you can't "free" them from it. Like, there's this culture, somewhere in Africa I think, that considers stretch marks to be beautiful- so they force-feed their daughters, and hurt them if they don't eat, and if they throw up... I find that vile. But- a lot of them view themselves as gorgeous when they grow up, do it to their daughters, and say they won't stop even when explained why that's not a good idea... So at that point- are they slaves or... or what?! *confused*

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^ Exactly. That's essentially what I was getting at. It's difficult to define these things comfortably (though I certainly see the point that the genetic programming makes it somewhat less ambiguous with Jem'Hadar).

 

[Marie1]

I think good stories and plot lines have shades ofgray.

I mean, you can enslave something mentally of course, but some Jem'Hadar seem to *like* what they do, and do it when they could take another road...

*testing the 'net waters, gonna try some stuff to see if I can stop being kicked off every five minutes*

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Marie1

If you want to take in to account the DS9 relaunch (Taran'atar), then the jem'hadar are clearly slaves: this is spelled out - LITERALLY - a few times over in the books (Abyss, Warpath, The soul key, etc).

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

No the served willingly.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

No the served willingly.

Not really.
He didn't serve 'willingly' in 'Warpath', 'Fearful symmetry', 'The soul key'. Not even close.

Plus - it was established that Taran'atar could not have chosen NOT to serve.
This is why the word 'willingly' - implying will aka choice - is not appropiate.
It's more precise to say that Taran'atar was happy to be a slave.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

No the served willingly.

Not really.
He didn't serve 'willingly' in 'Warpath', 'Fearful symmetry', 'The soul key'. Not even close.

Plus - it was established that Taran'atar could not have chosen NOT to serve.
This is why the word 'willingly' - implying will aka choice - is not appropiate.
It's more precise to say that Taran'atar was happy to be a slave.

Those are books and are not cannon.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

No the served willingly.

Not really.
He didn't serve 'willingly' in 'Warpath', 'Fearful symmetry', 'The soul key'. Not even close.

Plus - it was established that Taran'atar could not have chosen NOT to serve.
This is why the word 'willingly' - implying will aka choice - is not appropiate.
It's more precise to say that Taran'atar was happy to be a slave.

Those are books and are not cannon.

GalaxyClass1701
Behold my initial post - to which you responded:
"Marie1

If you want to take in to account the DS9 relaunch (Taran'atar), then the jem'hadar are clearly slaves: this is spelled out - LITERALLY - a few times over in the books (Abyss, Warpath, The soul key, etc)."

 

[Marie1]

Since the Jem'Hadar aren't real, I choose to include both books and on-screen, if what happens is true to the characters or species. And in Abyss, it was some botched Jem'Hadar made by a human anyway.

I *was* thinking of Warpath and TSK at the time, but also Ometi'klan, Goron'agar and Remat'klan. Or I could ask the one next to me...

But I can prove by on-screen... I just don't think sticking to it is necessary... Taran'atar was simply too awesome.

But on topic- I'm saying it's a shade of gray to a point- some feel they're a slave and free themselves, some consider themselves soldiers, and just because they're given olders doesn't make them slaves, some feel enslaved to the White, not the Founders... etc.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Marie1

Taran'atar was a slave, content, even happy to be a slave.

He could NOT choose to stop serving the founders (cleary proven in the latest books) - which makes him a slave, despite all his protestations to the contrary.

 

[Marie1]

If they're happy to serve, I choose to think of them as soldiers, especially if they are free of the White and the genetic programming. I mean, if the Founders don't have a mental hold, and if the White isn't an issue, and a Jem'Hadar still wants to serve, that's not slavery. If they could walk away, and choose to live in a hut and plant a garden, but want to be a soldier- then they can't be a slave.

It may not be a way of life we like or agree with, esp. in a "free" society though.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

But the problem is that they CAN'T walk away. They CAN'T have a truly untainted opinion. They DO have the genetic programming...even the white could be synthesized. But as long as they have the genetic programming, that means they will always be slaves who must either think the thoughts the Founders want them to, or perish, either at the hands of their masters, or in madness.

 

[Marie1]

Spoiler: In the case of Taran'atar

that's not true, and he still prefers to fight for the founders.

And they must be able to walk away literally- because hundreds have done it. Weyoun pointed out that if a few succeeded that all the Jem'Hadar would follow, therefore could follow. And it appears the majority prefer to live under the Founders rather than follow those that choose freedom, would rather put down those that leave instead of try it themselves.

It's hard to believe Weyoun, but it does seem like there is a flaw in their genetic programming, and as long as they can get their own White, unless they don't need it (and it is very useful- no sleep, food etc required) then... they're not like robots... or else most of the Jem'Hadar episodes we saw couldn't have happened...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

To have people conditioned to like slavery--that's what the likes of Dukat do, and it doesn't make their victims any less victims. What happened to Kira Meru didn't stop being rape because she had Stockholm Syndrome. No different for the Jem'Hadar.

 

[Marie1]

That's the balance though- some clearly don't like it, and leave- think "To the Death" or "Hippocratic Oath" --so if they know what slavery is, and can decide whether to remain in it or not, than at least for some, how they feel about it is willing. So if you *can* leave but don't, and if you like what you do... it's almost like a soldier who is conscripted but then stays with the military because they enjoy what they do.

Some probably do feel like slaves (to the Vorta at least) but not all of them seem to, and that's part of the problem with defeating them- they want to get better at what they do because they like it...

Meru would have loved to be freed... what would a Jem'Hadar do? I don't think they'd run amok killing... but what purpose besides being a soldier/engineer would they choose? And if free, they'd probably choose to serve the Founders anyway- out of gratitude, and stay on the White because they think eating if for wimps. So... we're almost at the same place.