Size of the Federation and Starfleet

[Patrickivan]

Some things have always perplexed me about the size of Starfleet in relation to the size of the Federation in the Milky Way. For the purposes of drama, I can forgive the stories that involved starships running into each other outside of shipping lanes, and fleets massing together for battles in localized areas. But within the realm of making the Star Trek universe more plausible, either there is a ridiculously high number of ships in Starfleet in the tens of thousands (perhaps close to 100000), or there are a mere few thousands where the bulk are in core world areas, i.e. more populated segments of the Federation, or there are perhaps only a few hundred, and they are scattered across the Federation.

The Milky Way is over 100000 light years across and about 1000 light years thick. The Federation has been given a size of about 8000 light years. I figure that based on a 4000 light year radius, and 1000 light year thickness at most, we’re talking about a volume of 50,285,714,285 light years. That’s hell of a lot of space.

I think that the ships we see are primarily staffed by humans because they reflect that part of space. Vulcan ships in Starfleet would be of their design and be charged with patrolling and exploring their designated areas. This would go on and on, with each predominant species in the Federation taking care of their areas. StarTrek.com suggests that the Federation has over 150 planetary governments. That’s a lot of systems producing ships for the Federation, in theory, but their production numbers will vary greatly due to membership requirements, economy, and need.

With a volume of 50 billion light years, in a more realistic sense, I would imagine Starfleet really is concerned primarily with exploration, colonization, patrols, and emergency situations. The battles that we see, for example, at Wolf 359, seemed somewhat more reasonable with dozens of ships meeting, as opposed to those colossal battles on DS9…

All of this leads me to think that while Starfleet could really be large (say 150 governments each maintaining a fleet of 1000 ships each), it just may be more realistic that Starfleet maintains a smaller fleet (say 150 worlds with about 100 or so ships per) because it’s just not practical to have tens of thousands, and that merchant/commercial ships may be conscripted into service and retrofitted in times of need.

Neutral zone skirmishes and perhaps small incursions or raids, seem more realistic, as opposed to invading forces trying to conquer absurd amounts of space, and that’s another reason why I think Starfleet wouldn’t have to be absurdly large…

I know I’m babbling a bit and my thoughts are all over the place, but I’d love to hear anyone else’s thoughts on this.

 

[Praetor]

A couple of immediate thoughts.

1) The idea of each world having separate 'divisions' and ships that they are economically and academically responsible for is somewhat appealing to me, as it would help explain why Starfleet ships don't seem so integrated racially, why we only saw certain designs during the Dominion War, and so on.

2) I don't think each world would have to 'fund' 1000 ships necessarily but I could see them funding towards 700 operating ships with perhaps 300 each in reserve/surplus depots across the galaxy.

3) In your scenario I would also see the various worlds sharing most designs, and certainly starbase facilities, uniforms, and so on.

 

[Tigger]

Well the DS9 staff did give us that 10,000 ship fleet (or around that).

I could see starships being crewed predominately by one species. As for them operating primarily near their homeworlds, since the founding worlds of the Federation are close together, by that measure we should see Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite vessels as often as we do Human (Earth and Alphan) ones.

 

[Patrickivan]

Tigger, I didn't see the whole series of DS9 from beginning to end (I am not proud to say- even if it wasn't my favorite series). Was that the entire Starfleet, or was that just the fleet gathered that they could spare to fight the Dominion?

Praetor, I certainly agree that there would be a uniform/design standard for the entire fleet. I also could see that the member worlds would also have their own seperate forces in way. Kind of like a coast guard/ system patrol... In that case, that would fall solely under the auspices of the governing system.

That might also lend weight to Starfleet being able to divert ships from all over the Federation without entirely compromising the safety of their member systems. Hmm.

I'm still torn on what a practical proper Starfleet size would be... 150 member worlds of couse doesn't mean just 150 planets. That just means governing bodies. There still must be 100's to 1000's of populated planets that fall under the jurisdiction of those bodies. I'd think that the more resources they have, the more responsibilities to the Federation they must have. Earth and Vulcan being founding and oldest members, would have significant dues, and others like the member with one system under it's belt, let's call it Joeincognito, may have the ability to maintain half a dozen ships.

 

[SicOne]

Tigger, where did the 10,000 ship fleet figure come from?

IIRC, in DS9 they made a big deal about Starfleet losing something like 112 ships in a single engagement in the Tyra system, and not too long afterwards the big fleet was heading off to retake DS9 with six hundred and some ships (1,200 Dominion ships, and a line of dialogue indicated they outnumbered the Federation force 2-to-1).

Based on stuff like that, I had figured Starfleet for some 1,000 or so ships, retaining a reserve fleet to defend core worlds or important areas (or maybe not, as the Breen were able to hit Earth, after all). The thousand-ship fleet notion was furthered reading the Destiny trilogy, especially with the Azure Nebula battle losses.

Even with a thousand ships, minimum, the Battle of Wolf 359 wouldn't have been that big of a deal. If the pre-Wolf 359 fleet was 500 or so ships, then Wolf 359 became a bigger deal; also with the advant of the Dominion War, more ships may have come out of mothballs, hence the numerous Excelsiors and Mirandas we saw.

Haven't we done a "fleet size" thread before?

 

[Praetor]

I wouldn't put technical faith in the novels, SicOne. I just... wouldn't.

Here are those older threads regarding number of Starfleet vessels here and fleet composition post 2379 here. (I knew I kept those subscriptions for a reason. )

From the former thread, apparently Rick Berman once stated there could be over 30,000 active Starfleet ships in the modern area. Ron Moore speculated between 5000 and 8000 active ships. The registry numbers, if taken sequentially, were cited as correlating with these seemingly large estimates. I for one don't think that every single registry number between NCC-100 and NCC-75000 was actually used - I think they tend to skip to 'round' numbers and order in batches - for example NCC-1700 to NCC-1750.

The discussion tended to point out that the less ships the better if we assume that all of these ships are normally dispersed across the Federation in peacetime, it took two years to assemble the fleets for the Dominion War, and yet the Enterprise routinely zips across the Federation, plus seemed to often be 'the only ship in the Quadrant.' I think Timo actually originated the 10,000 compromise figure. I tend to agree with it as the maximum nmber of ships in use during the Dominion War.

General Points of that thread:
1) Many ships of the fleet could be smaller ships such as runabouts
2) Another good chunk good be registered transports (fuel, cargo, and so on) and dedicated science ships such as the Oberth/Nova, both of which might be rather useless militarily
3) An amount of the Dominion War 10,000ish ships could have been reactivated from older reserves (Mirandas, anyone?) that would not have been active prior.

I quote myself:

Personally, I think Starfleet, at the peak of the Dominion War, had at or below than 10,000 commissioned ships in operation, including ships pulled from reserve fleets and surplus depots, and new ships both rush-launched and cobbled together from 'leftovers.' I would think up to 1500 of these could be scoutships and non-combat worthy antiquated supply ships, such as the U.S.S. Lantree as seen in TNG. I imagine before the war Starfleet strength was probably around 6000-7000 and afterward remaining in the 8000s until tapering back down to pre-war levels by the time of Nemesis.

I think the 'only ship in the sector' cliche can be easily explained by the 'spidery' Federation territory depicted in, among other publications, the Star Trek Star Charts book from a few years back, and allows higher numbers than you might think. I really wouldn't support their having EVER been more than about 10,000 operating at once (anything with an NCC), and that's only during the Dominion War.

It is of course possible that Starfleet would have felt, post-war, that many of their ships had seen their day and were in need of retirement, thus leading to the smaller fleet you speak of in the books, and depending on the time frame, an inability to recall widely-deployed ships.

 

[DSG2k]

Yes, 112 ships were part of the Seventh Fleet in "A Time To Stand"[DSN6], and the highest known number is the Tenth Fleet. That suggests a fleet somewhere in the 1000 range. But, mere elements of the Second and Fifth combined into a 600 ship fleet to retake DS9, suggesting that some fleets had many more than 112 ships. If there were 300 each to make the 600, and these were not the whole of those fleets, then by the same reasoning that gets you 1000, you should then get several thousand at least.

Further, when the Breen energy-dampening weapon was unleashed on the fleets, there was a Klingon ship that was immune ("Tacking Into The Wind"[DSN7]). Modifying the whole remaining Klingon fleet to match that one meant (as per episode statements) that the Klingon Empire would single-handedly be holding the line with 1,500 modified ships. And it is explicitly mentioned that they would be outnumbered 20-to-1.

That means the DCB Axis had 30,000 warships. Assuming a rough parity, then the FKR Alliance should have about 30,000 ships. And assuming a rough parity between the Federation, Klingon, and Romulan forces (to account for the balance of power), then the Federation ought to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 ships.

(Personally I think they ought to make up the majority of the 30,000, but 10,000 is a more defensible figure upon which to plant my flag.)

 

[Drake]

I gave up on trying to imagine the size of Starfleet some time ago along with my ambition to develop a complete fleet list for our RPGs. But I think the 30,000 figure might be a good estimate by the end of the Dominion War. That of course would range from many runabout-sized ships to a relatively few Sovereigns.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I think most of the ships are small fighters, ship like Miranda brought out of retirement, and kit bashes hastily put together. The peace time fleet must be much smaller. I think 1000 ships is a good number to go by, from what we've seen on screen.

The 20-1 Martok statement can't be true, because we see in SOTA that "only" 2000 ships on the other end of the wormhole would spell doom for the whole quadrant.

The intelligence had to have been wrong, and/or the Klingon must have exaggerated. They struggle when the odds are 2-1 in SOTA, a 20-1 odds would mean it's over.

 

[Drake]

true enough, a bit of hyperbole there I'm sure, not that Klingons ever exaggerate....much

 

[Manticore]

The 20-1 Martok statement can't be true, because we see in SOTA that "only" 2000 ships on the other end of the wormhole would spell doom for the whole quadrant.

I assumed that it meant that there was no way that they'd be able to retake Deep Space Nine before the Dominion could send further reinforcements. Even with the Klingons' help, they didn't have had the forces to fight off two thousand warships and Deep Space Nine, and while they were gathering further forces to do so, the Dominion would have poured reinforcements through the wormhole at will.

I'm sorry, but considering that elements of the two fleets mentioned in the episode came out to around 600 starships, I find the idea of less than ~8000 starships in Starfleet to be rather low. I personally would prefer 10-12k.

 

[Drake]

All leading me to keep to my original conclusion, I haven't a clue how big Starfleet is. The evidence from canon veers all over the place as it does on so many other topics. I can say with confidence, however, that it's bigger than a breadbox.

 

[Manticore]

All leading me to keep to my original conclusion, I haven't a clue how big Starfleet is. The evidence from canon veers all over the place as it does on so many other topics. I can say with confidence, however, that it's bigger than a breadbox.

I'm betting that I could find a way to prove that it isn't.

Hmm...all of the digital models that make up Starfleet could easily fit on one hard drive. Therefore, it's smaller than a breadbox!

 

[Drake]

Gaaak.. Defeated by logic again. Orders self-destruct sequence .. .Drake Foxtrot Uniform Kilo

 

[Manticore]

Gaaak.. Defeated by logic again. Orders self-destruct sequence .. .Drake Foxtrot Uniform Kilo

Eh, to be fair to you, I kind of changed the rules mid-contest.

 

[Drake]

I thought changing the rules was a valid Starfleet tactic?

 

[SicOne]

I reprogrammed the thread so it was possible to rescue Drake.

 

[Drake]

I reprogrammed the thread so it was possible to rescue Drake.

And got a commendation for original thinking too, no doubt.

 

[Manticore]

I reprogrammed the thread so it was possible to rescue Drake.

And got a commendation for original thinking too, no doubt.

Offset by about 20 black marks for hacking official software.

 

[Drake]

Naughty Kirk. Naughty SicOne. Bad, bad, bad.