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Size of other major powers needs to be addressed

Borders are useful for creating drama and selling an occasional “World of...” book. They don’t have to be logical or consistent.
Create your own mental maps and leave it there.
 
Reposted from the Trek Tech forum:

I noticed years ago that every map I have ever seen attempting to chart the Star Trek universe looks something like this:

...Mostly because they are printed on paper.

Hopefully, when the sales of printed tie-in books plummet enough, we'll get rid of that limitation and can have 3D star maps, too.

They should quite literally have "ups" and "downs" in the scale of their various empires and one would expect that several of them would be "above" and "below" federation space while others are "next to" or even "wrapped around" it in some ways.

Which is what Star Charts and all the follow-ons really have. The Romulan ovoid is floating in the middle of all that UFP blue, say, perhaps a bit above the chosen zero plane (which can be either the plane of Sol's orbit around the core, or the abstract galactic centerplane, as those more or less coincide) but definitely not claiming all of the Milky Way above and below the outlines of the RNZ. The UFP blue in turn extends in all directions in bold tentacles; many are shown in the plane of the map, but just as many are supposed to go up and down.

What the Charts originally chose to avoid was putting a significant star empire either above or below the UFP core, so as not to visually clutter the game. Any new adversary or ally introduced is free to go in those slots nowadays, without fear of contradicting the canonized bits of the chart. After all, we only really see those chart snippets in the DSC era, and only as pertains to where the Klingons sit; in basically any era, we can witness our heroes suddenly klicking active the sickly green symbology of the Bugomite Star Confederacy right on top of the center area, or the purple tentacles of the Space Librarian Horde right below it, without fear of contradiction.

It's also unlikely that any of these empires are going to have a regular, perfectly rounded shape or even be entirely contiguous: it could be common practice for governments to bypass huge regions of totally useless systems that consist of nothing but brown dwarfs and iceballs and then truck out sixty light years to annex a star with an Earthlike planet and then five of its neighbors for good measure.

Then again, no government would wish to let some other government claim the bypassed areas. Why not declare a million cubic lightyears of emptiness part of your Universal Dominion and then shoot to bits anybody encountered flying within (but not having the expensive fly-through permit glued onto the bridge window)? It doesn't matter if your factual intercept rate is only about 0.002% of intrusions: the claiming of the empty space still serves as a formal excuse to execute those who do get caught, and to hopefully deter others.

Regular shapes would be an expected artifact of this abstract claiming of vacuum, just like national or regional borders today tend to be straight lines whenever drawn through wastelands.

A significant consequence of this would be that one cannot easily measure the strength of a star empire from its apparent size. Which is stronger, the vast spread of the UFP or the compact RSE? Either of those can easily contain a threshold number of industrial systems to generate a mighty starfleet and its trillions of soldiers.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Mostly because they are printed on paper.
Thus making them fundamentally innaccurate. Nice if you want to make money or make a name for yourself as an artist, but useless for any sort of realistic projection of what is actually going on.

Of course, our futuristic counterparts seem to use tablet devices and holographic projectors exclusively, so the 3D map is the only kind of map they would ever see. It wouldn't be a problem for them.


Then again, no government would wish to let some other government claim the bypassed areas.
Why would you claim a bypassed area? The whole point of bypassing it is that there's nothing IN that area worth claiming in the first place (if there was, you wouldn't have bypassed it).

This is another behavior that's surprisingly well modeled in "Elite Dangerous" during powerplay cycles. There are whole regions of space that various empires simply do not give a shit about because they're full of brown dwarfs and chondritic asteroid fields that are useless for mining and can't be used for refueling. EVERYONE bypasses those areas, or just avoids them altogether. You can waste time claiming those systems if you want, but any effort spent DEFENDING those claims is wasted, so it would be an empty claim, probably made by some imbecile looking for a way to make his empire look slightly bigger.

Regular shapes would be an expected artifact of this abstract claiming of vacuum, just like national or regional borders today tend to be straight lines whenever drawn through wastelands.
Most of those borders you're talking about were drawn artificially (and arbitrarily) by whatever imperial power used to own those countries. Prior to that, the wastelands were large empty expanses of territory surrounded by things that actually mattered. The old Ottoman Empire, for example, basically a hollow civilization whose major cities and centers of industries circled a few patches of empty desert, and even the desert was valued to SOMEONE under Ottoman Rule (the Bedouins, for example).

This isn't the case in the Star Trek Universe, where most of those systems are literally unexplored and unsettled by ANYONE AT ALL. So the analogy is actually closer to the Americas during colonial times: you can claim large swaths of territory, but those claims are only as good as your ability to enforce them (as the French, the Spanish and the Indians found out the hard way).

In a similar vain: there's no logic -- or even precedent -- for claiming a large volume of vacuum. The United Federation of Planets and the Romulan Star Empire both imply in their names and actions that the territory they seek to control are indeed prized systems and the planets around them. So the analogy would be similar to maritime conventions: you can only claim as your territorial waters out to a certain distance from the shore, and this just happens to be equivalent to the firing range of your cannons. In Star Trek, this is basically the quick interception range of one of your starships, so probably a sphere up to about a light year or so from the system's barrycenter.
 
Thus making them fundamentally innaccurate. Nice if you want to make money or make a name for yourself as an artist, but useless for any sort of realistic projection of what is actually going on.

Except there isn't any "actually" involved. That is, no real reason to think the Trek universe isn't of the sort that can be nicely portrayed on paper pages. After all, Trek universe is in every respect a fake designed to fit the parameters of its medium.

If one wants to venture beyond what Paramount can afford to show on screen, one can go for the novels. But those can't afford to do everything, either. It's always possible to assume that what can be afforded is a tiny fraction of what is "unreally" out there, of course. But that just means making a choice: whether to believe in unseen things that fit with the seen, or to believe in unseen things that are at odds with the seen.

But I can't see the 2D maps of Trek limiting the unseen in any major way. Just add the third dimension in your mind, right?

Of course, our futuristic counterparts seem to use tablet devices and holographic projectors exclusively, so the 3D map is the only kind of map they would ever see. It wouldn't be a problem for them.

Except again Paramount could only ever afford 2D things on those padds. It's very nice that they in turn could never afford 2D things on holodecks, where absolutely realistic 3D is the one and only cheap way to go, and any sort of deviation from perfection costs money.

Why would you claim a bypassed area? The whole point of bypassing it is that there's nothing IN that area worth claiming in the first place (if there was, you wouldn't have bypassed it).

That bit I already explained - if you don't, somebody else will. And claiming it costs nothing at all, for you or for your enemy. Only an idiot would skip taking the universe for free.

It's all about access anyway. Trek ships don't teleport from A to B. You want to enjoy and deny access first and foremost, and you can't do it physically (you'd need 47 billion ships or whatever) so you do it by drawing a few colorful lines on a map.

If you don't defend your claim to your routes of passage even on paper, then you have already lost whatever lies on the other side of the emptiness.

Most of those borders you're talking about were drawn artificially (and arbitrarily) by whatever imperial power used to own those countries.

Which no doubt applies here, too.

Prior to that, the wastelands were large empty expanses of territory surrounded by things that actually mattered.

Which no doubt applies here, too.

So the analogy is actually closer to the Americas during colonial times: you can claim large swaths of territory, but those claims are only as good as your ability to enforce them (as the French, the Spanish and the Indians found out the hard way).

And if you can't fight at the frontier, you settle the matter the civilized way, by attacking the enemy where you can (say, hijacking his ships, bombarding his mainland cities, blockading his most valued raw materials, assassinating his leaders). After which you return to your map and draw even bolder lines.

On the rare occasion, the new lines may take into account the local circumstances. Generally, though, and especially in the space scenario at hand, you just measure the cubic lightyearage you want to take away from the enemy, or cede to him, and draw the simplest borders around that. It's not as if space would offer you rivers or mountain ranges for natural borders anyway.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That bit I already explained - if you don't, somebody else will.
There's a dead bird on the sidewalk close to my house. Should I go and claim it before somebody else does?

It's all about access anyway. Trek ships don't teleport from A to B. You want to enjoy and deny access first and foremost
Yes, TO PLANETS. The easiest way to do that is to park your ships in the vicinity of a planet you want to control and don't let anyone else near it. Otherwise, you're just watching the other guy's ships go screaming past you at warp speed and shaking your fists at them as they pass you by, which is pretty much what I mean by "unenforceable."

Same reason why the various countries of the world have not yet claimed every square inch of ocean in the world today. "International waters" are a thing for a reason.

If you don't defend your claim to your routes of passage even on paper, then you have already lost whatever lies on the other side of the emptiness.
Routes do not need defending. CARGO needs defending. Your ability to prevent cargo from reaching its destination defines your control of the region through which that cargo travels. Thus, even if you could setup a blockade in a huge volume of empty space (you can't, but let's pretend you had some sort of Star Wars style warp drive interdictor that can pull ships out of FTL whenever you want) the validity of your claim is exactly as strong as your ability to keep other ships from using that region of space. That means a permanent military presence, ships, space stations, colonies and outposts. All of these constructed LITERALLY in the middle of nowhere, controlling a region of space that produces absolutely nothing and gains the controlling power absolutely nothing except the ability to force other people to warp past them at high speed or -- in the very best case scenario -- prolong their voyage by two and a half days as they are forced to go around you.

"Just to spite the other guy" is not a coherent military goal, and it certainly isn't something you'd commit your entire fleet to. Unless you're being governed by imbeciles, which I admit is a distinct political possibility.

And if you can't fight at the frontier, you settle the matter the civilized way, by attacking the enemy where you can (say, hijacking his ships, bombarding his mainland cities, blockading his most valued raw materials, assassinating his leaders). After which you return to your map and draw even bolder lines.
You can draw the lines anywhere you damn well please, the point is EVERYONE ELSE will draw them somewhere else. If two ships meet in deep space with contradictory maps, then the person with the bigger gun or the faster warp drive ends up being correct. The borders you draw are only as good as your ability to defend them, and border you aren't going to defend isn't really a border.

The reason governments don't make bullshit claims like that is because it is political suicide for a country to deliberately demonstrate its own weakness. When you try to claim territory you can't or won't defend, it's only a matter of time before somebody (accidentally or intentionally) challenges your claim, and then your lack of response becomes public knowledge. Your empire appears weak, and your neighbors lose any respect for the claims that actually MATTER to you, which puts you in a position of having to actually fight for territory instead of just THREATENING to fight for it. The appearance of superior strength can prevent conflicts over minor disputes if one of the parties judges that the prize isn't worth the violence that might ensue, but if you're fighting a government that is run by imbeciles who routinely claim worthless territory they are in no position to actually defend, opening fire becomes a more attractive proposition.

Generally, though, and especially in the space scenario at hand, you just measure the cubic lightyearage you want to take away from the enemy
Measure it FROM WHAT? The vacuum of space is, by definition, devoid of landmarks. The only way to even know you're IN that region of space is by judging the distance between the nearby stars, which in the mean time are constantly in motion relative to one another. So you would essentially have to claim all of THOSE stars and deny the enemy access to them... but without him actually stopping at those systems, that denial is pointless.

If the point is to keep the enemy from getting to a choice world way out on the frontier, then your objective is to take that choice world away from him. Almost anything you could do to disrupt his travel TO that world would be accomplished more efficiently by just blockading the actual system. Otherwise, trying to claim some arbitrary region of empty space the enemy MIGHT use to reach it is a waste of time and resources; it would be like Germany trying to claim the entire Atlantic Ocean just to keep the allies from sending supplies to Great Brittain.
 
ok, this has been bothering me for a while. As a rational (hehe) Trekkie, I can’t help but wondering how on Earth the Klingons could be a real threat to the Federation as depicted in DIS and elsewhere UNLESS they have a large empire.

Think about it: the Federation has more than 150 Worlds (onehundredfifty!) - which implies that 1. Its resources in terms of population and minerals must be huge 2. Space is densely populated.

Which implies that 1. The Klingon and Romulan Empire MUST be quite large to pose a serious threat to our beloved Federation. Now, they either are located in areas of space with zero alien races (very unlikely from what we know about ST galaxy), OR they must have conquered/assimilated many other races along the way. There is no way than a single-race empire could get as big as the Federation unless they wipe out all their neighbors - which neither the Klingon nor the Romulans seem inclined to do.

So my question is: where are all these other races and why don’t the screenwriters take the chance to introduce some of them? I think the narrative possibilities could be endless!

The Klingons/Romulans have adjusted their society to behave as an empire. Conquest and expansion and all that. They do so with military might: armies and ships.

The Federation and its allies are scientists and diplomats. They don't have armies bred for war, not every ship built is bristling with weapons.

If you are suggesting that Discovery is obligated to reveal one or more major powers that is similar to the Klingons or Romulans in its influence in the seasons to come, I could only conclude, why not? They could well prove a threat to a current or future ally of the Federation instead of the Federation itself - maybe the threat is invading the Denobulans, Trill or Cardassians or something and the Federation must help fend them off.

Personally, I would love more delving in the society/planets of the Andorians and Tellarites.... but they've already joined the Federation by Discovery's time so I don't know what to tell you, Krog. :)
 
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This conversation is why I prefer maps that depict the Federation/Klingons/Romulans as a collection of stars, rather than as a block of territory, because like say Stargate SG-1, where the majority of planets don't have a gate, it's possible that there are entire star systems within Federation space that have only been remotely probed... i.e. that you could just venture a few light years off a major trade route and find a world relatively obscure to the Federation authorities:

VWIucyV.jpg
 
This conversation is why I prefer maps that depict the Federation/Klingons/Romulans as a collection of stars, rather than as a block of territory, because like say Stargate SG-1, where the majority of planets don't have a gate, it's possible that there are entire star systems within Federation space that have only been remotely probed... i.e. that you could just venture a few light years off a major trade route and find a world relatively obscure to the Federation authorities:

VWIucyV.jpg
What's more, it's also true that location isn't the primary concern when it comes to strategic importance or territory. If the goal is to claim habitable and resource-rich planets, you'll want to claim them wherever you find them and put boots on the ground as soon as possible. If that planet is the only golden world within 50 light years, then it makes no sense to wait until your fleet builds up a presence in the surrounding space to start colonizing. You throw down a settlement and maybe a starbase and start making babies.

Proximity matters for strategic reasons as far as "How long will it take your ships to get here if we are attacked?" But in general it's probably easier to export your industry to a distant world than it is to expand from a central location and subsume that distant world from the core.
 
Yes, TO PLANETS. The easiest way to do that is to park your ships in the vicinity of a planet you want to control and don't let anyone else near it.

But you can't park them there if fifty lightyears of enemy territory sit between your ships and that planet.

Are you postulating that every planet ought to have its own defense fleet that never leaves said planet? This might be how "real" star empires work, but Trek and its warp drive make the idea untenable. If you split your ships in penny packets around specific planets (each of which has to manufacture its own ships, what with being bottled up by the enemy holdings), the enemy can concentrate its forces at will and gobble up each penny packet without resistance.

Trek features effortless movement from star system to star system. This absolutely requires the formal control of access, and conversely the challenging of said control.

Otherwise, you're just watching the other guy's ships go screaming past you at warp speed and shaking your fists at them as they pass you by, which is pretty much what I mean by "unenforceable."

Why wouldn't you shoot them down instead? Anybody and his Pakled cousin can do warp chases and force the escaping party out of warp for comeuppance.

The trick is only in meeting the enemy in the vastness of space (meaning "border defenses" are like minefields - a certain very low statistical chance of getting intercepted is coupled with severe repercussions). But when you do, you want the formal right to declare the trespasser dead. You certainy don't want to give yp that right for nothing.

Same reason why the various countries of the world have not yet claimed every square inch of ocean in the world today. "International waters" are a thing for a reason.

Not really. They used to be, back when oceans could be controlled, and they are sort of grandfathered in. But grandpatricide poses no problems, thus e.g. China can claim all the waters it wishes, as long as somebody else doesn't get there first, and with bigger guns.

Leaving empty space unclaimed in Trek would be as absurd as Russia deciding that all those thousands of worthless square miles of Siberia between the worthwhile oil wells can be ceded to Germany or Lichtenstein, whichever claims them first.

Routes do not need defending. CARGO needs defending. Your ability to prevent cargo from reaching its destination defines your control of the region through which that cargo travels.

So if A sets up a pirate fleet, B can do nothing about it stalking out there, because it's out of their jurisdiction?

The same factors that make it difficult to intercept also make it near-impossible to defend the shipments, unless one enjoys the right to blow to smithereens the pirates whenever they are met, not merely when they can be shown to be engaging in piracy. And there is no difference between a "shoot first, fine the next-of-kind later" and a territorial claim.

That means a permanent military presence, ships, space stations, colonies and outposts.

No, that's the losing strategy. Strategic mobility is the key: your fleets must be able to be concentrated against the threat, meaning they have no business being at any specific spot at any specific time, least of all where the enemy expects them to be.

To control a vast ocean, you declare it yours, and if you spot somebody's frigate there, your entire fleet goes to flatten six of his cities (with nukes or 14 inch shells, depending on the era) and tells him not to do it again. That's how you find wars in the plains, that's how you would fight wars on the oceans if not for certain grandfather clauses and the unfortunate fact that oceans are so darn small and the ports to close to each other that the reprisals are a tad too easy to conduct.

"Just to spite the other guy" is not a coherent military goal, and it certainly isn't something you'd commit your entire fleet to. Unless you're being governed by imbeciles, which I admit is a distinct political possibility.

Well, spiting is what real fleets do about 99% of their time, in pretty much every era outside open war. Having a military of any sort is all about posturing, first and foremost.

You can draw the lines anywhere you damn well please, the point is EVERYONE ELSE will draw them somewhere else.

And then the strongest one wins. But if you don't draw any lines, you automatically lose, and every one of your planets is subject to siege you can do nothing about.

The reason governments don't make bullshit claims like that is because it is political suicide for a country to deliberately demonstrate its own weakness.

There is no country today that would either refrain from making bullshit claims about its borders, or be able to defend said countries if somebody really put his heart into it. But nobody usually does, exactly because everybody else can retaliate. This has not led to any bullshit border failing to get drawn on the map so far.

Measure it FROM WHAT? The vacuum of space is, by definition, devoid of landmarks. The only way to even know you're IN that region of space is by judging the distance between the nearby stars, which in the mean time are constantly in motion relative to one another.

So you claim that Trek ships can't navigate? That's a non-starter - everybody in Trek knows well enough where everything else is. This isn't the 17th century any more - don't try and invent objections that aren't merely outside the scope of Trek but anachronistic to begin with.

It would be like Germany trying to claim the entire Atlantic Ocean just to keep the allies from sending supplies to Great Brittain.

Which is exactly what they did, in two world wars. As said, there's no difference between "anything that moves within our territory is dead if we happen upon it" and "this territory is ours".

Timo Saloniemi
 
But you can't park them there if fifty lightyears of enemy territory sit between your ships and that planet.
Why not, exactly?

Are you postulating that every planet ought to have its own defense fleet that never leaves said planet?
Obviously not. Just that the defense of planets is a real strategic goal in the Trek universe. The defense of large clumps of empty space, which are literally worthless, isn't.

Trek features effortless movement from star system to star system. This absolutely requires the formal control of access, and conversely the challenging of said control.
Yes, and the only way to control access to a system is to attack enemy ships as they try to enter it. Interception at a distance is a lot trickier to do.

Why wouldn't you shoot them down instead? Anybody and his Pakled cousin can do warp chases and force the escaping party out of warp for comeuppance.
Because forcing an enemy ship out of warp is a relatively rare occurrence, and it requires one ship to engage another basically one-on-one. You can chase him to the system he's trying to get to, but if you don't have superiority when you get there, it's a wasted effort.

So you don't intercept them where you have to chase them across 50 parsecs to get tot he disputed planet. You meet them AT the disputed planet and kill them as they approach.

Leaving empty space unclaimed in Trek would be as absurd as Russia deciding that all those thousands of worthless square miles of Siberia between the worthwhile oil wells can be ceded to Germany or Lichtenstein, whichever claims them first.
Claiming land is not the same thing as claiming space.

To begin with, you can map a parcel of land. You can also easily control a parcel of land by blocking access to it.

You can do this with some bodies of water too, but it's much harder. Bodies of water where it is impractical to do this remain unclaimed.

You cannot do this with space. You would have to create a barrier defense for 360 degrees in all directions to attack anything that enters that region. The size of the barrier increases with the square of its radius, and that just for keeping people OUT.

And that to control access to a region of empty space. ANY resources you expend to control that region are wasted, because what you're defending is quite literally worthless, and the only thing you've actually accomplished is to make your enemy waste a day or two flying around you.

Defending the system itself is doable at a fraction of the cost and is actually profitable since the system has resources to exploit.

To control a vast ocean, you declare it yours
No one in the history of manking has ever actually tried to control an entire ocean. That should tell you something.
 
The European Union is geographically smaller than Russia, but has a lot more people and a lot more countries in it.

Militarily, even if you took away Russia's much larger nuclear arsenal the combined EU forces, though technically larger, would still have a very hard time against the Russians.

Disclaimer (mostly for Timo Saloniemi): In this example the EU is obviously intended to represent the UFP and the Russians the Klingons.
 
Yeah. Trek has always worked on a one by one basis. No show ever laid out a comprehensive power dynamic. Cardassians were a major power for most of the 24th century, and we never learn about them until season four of TNG.
And in that particular episode - neither the 1701-D nor the U.S.S Phoenix were threatened much by any of the Cardassian ships. Hell, Picard hoped Starfleet would respond so he wouldn't have to destroy the Cardassian ship that shot at him first - and even after Cardassians getting the Phoenix prefix codes; the Phoenix took out both a Cardassian Galor class, and a Cardassian freighter without really taking much of a hit (it had longer range weapons).

After "The Wounded" is was left wondering what else was going on in the Federation during the stated Cardassian/Federation War because by what was shown the Federation seemed to be able to easily curb-stomp anything the Cardassians had; so they must have been fighting some other star nation at the same time or something.
 
[QUOTE="Noname Given, post: 12427861After "The Wounded" is was left wondering what else was going on in the Federation during the stated Cardassian/Federation War because by what was shown the Federation seemed to be able to easily curb-stomp anything the Cardassians had; so they must have been fighting some other star nation at the same time or something.[/QUOTE]

There are a lot of references to recent wars the Federation had with minor powers during TNG and DS9.

But don't forget that a superior military doesn't equate to instant victory, or even guarantee victory at all. The US and UK have enjoyed technological (and troop quality) advantages over all their adversaries since the Second World War. Victory (or defeat in the case of Vietnam) still takes time, and there were still losses.

Also, Galaxy and Nebula classes were among the newest and most powerful ships the Federation had, and Cardassia was established as being a power in decline. It's not hard to imagine that they were once an equal match to Starfleet, but had fallen behind by this point.
 
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