Size of other major powers needs to be addressed

[Locutus of Bored]

It makes me wonder what was going on with the Klingons and Romulans to make them largely stay out of the Federation's way? That's a long time. Unless they were biding their time, agreeing to stay out of the Federation's business, or were pre-occupied either internally or with other enemies.

Some large and heretofore unknown Beta Quadrant threat from the opposite side of their respective empires could have been occupying their time (and territory) and forcing these former enemies to reluctantly join forces to defeat them, explaining their brief TOS-era technological exchange.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

ok, this has been bothering me for a while. As a rational (hehe) Trekkie, I can’t help but wondering how on Earth the Klingons could be a real threat to the Federation as depicted in DIS and elsewhere UNLESS they have a large empire.

Think about it: the Federation has more than 150 Worlds (onehundredfifty!) - which implies that 1. Its resources in terms of population and minerals must be huge 2. Space is densely populated.

Which implies that 1. The Klingon and Romulan Empire MUST be quite large to pose a serious threat to our beloved Federation. Now, they either are located in areas of space with zero alien races (very unlikely from what we know about ST galaxy), OR they must have conquered/assimilated many other races along the way. There is no way than a single-race empire could get as big as the Federation unless they wipe out all their neighbors - which neither the Klingon nor the Romulans seem inclined to do.

So my question is: where are all these other races and why don’t the screenwriters take the chance to introduce some of them? I think the narrative possibilities could be endless!

Three things about this:

1) Having a large empire doesn't mean having a large military, and having a small empire doesn't mean having a small military. The Federation is a very large organization that expands through peaceful association rather than military conquest, so it doesn't need a huge military. Meanwhile, the Klingon Empire is a small fractured empire that has been in dissaray for a very long time and its military spends more time fighting among themselves other than conquering anyone else. So they could easily have an enormous military without actually controlling much territory or resources.

2) The Star Trek universe is a very weird place, and we've learned over the years that most of the things that pose a serious threat to the Federation aren't military in nature and aren't particularly numerous at that. More importantly, it's a scifi conceit -- especially in space opera -- that a technologically advanced civilization could cause enormous damage to a less advanced one without having to rely on superior numbers.

3) The nature of space war is probably different from the nature of terrestrial war. Two warring factions on the same planet coming to blows are almost certainly fighting over some limited resource that they don't want to share, be that oil or dilithium or territory or slaves. In space, however, you have a potentially unlimited supply of worlds, explored or not, that all have resources you can exploit, and from a standpoint of cost effectiveness it is always cheaper and more efficient to find new resources than try to take those resources from someone else. On the other hand, any empire or government needs resources to grow and thrive, and a political rival's ability to expand to uncharted worlds would depend immensely on their ability to fund future expeditions with the sources they currently have. The only way to curtail, say, Federation expansion is to deny the Federation the means to efficiently build exploration ships and destroy the bases they use to supply them.

So war in space isn't so much about conquering your enemy's territory or seizing his resources, but about depriving your enemy of resources he needs to expand, thrive, or even succeed. Your goal isn't really to conquer your enemy's homeworld, just scorch all of its farmland, cave in its mines and cut off all routes of interstellar commerce that sustain its quality of life. IOW, most instances of interstellar war would look alot like the Battle of Britain on a planetary scale: most of your starships are doing commerce raids, and most of your attacks on his territory are actually bombing runs intended to cripple his infrastructure. There'd be relatively few infantry actions unless the goal was to capture a staging area to use for future attacks, or unless your troops were bored as fuck and needed something to do.

This is what makes the Klingons so frustrating to fight. They don't have any coherent goals in mind for the war except causing damage and generally fucking shit up. They could probably destroy every starship in the Federation and bomb every Federation world back into the stone age and then when the dust settled and they've run out of targets they'd just shrug and say "Well, that was fun... let's go home!" You can't really predict their strategies because they don't really have one, just destruction for destruction's sake.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

A perfect summation of Klingon strategy, from "Day of the Dove":

We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive.

In "Journey to Babel", we learned that the Enterprise is carrying 32 ambassadors to the Babel Conference. These are ambassadors of Federation planets. If each one of them represented a Federation world, then the lowest number of Federation worlds in 2267 was 32.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In "Journey to Babel", we learned that the Enterprise is carrying 32 ambassadors to the Babel Conference. These are ambassadors of Federation planets. If each one of them represented a Federation world, then the lowest number of Federation worlds in 2267 was 32.

And there's another thing to consider: we never clearly saw the political disposition of the Federation in the 23rd century. In the 24th it's clear they're a cohesive superstate with a strong central government, but in the 23rd century it's entirely possible the Federation is more like the United Nations or NATO. Its members are more sovereign than collective, which means the Klingons declaring war on the Federation would be like Russia declaring war on "The combined military forces of NATO"

 

[Lakenheath 72]

With fingers crossed, Discovery will give us a better understanding of the 23rd century Federation.

 

[Tenacity]

The Federation is a very large organization that expands through peaceful association rather than military conquest

But in spite of this fights border wars, sometimes protracted ones, in order to gain and hold territory.

so it doesn't need a huge military

And then during the Dominion War we find out that the Federation has thousands of armed starships fully capable of engaging in combat against other power's military starships.

The Federation in fact does have a "huge military." It's called Starfleet.

 

[Lord Garth]

If registry numbers are anything to go by, the fleet in the TNG Era (with registries in the 70,000s) is 35 times larger than the Movie Era (with registries in the 2000s). The registry numbers aren't sequential since Discovery is newer than the Enterprise yet has a lower registry number but, overall, the size of Starfleet seems to have multiplied.

Which means that if the Federation isn't too different in size, then it makes sense that Starfleet was sparser in TOS/DSC than it is in TNG/DS9/VOY. And it feeds into the idea that Kirk's Enterprise was oftentimes the only ship in range.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But in spite of this fights border wars, sometimes protracted ones, in order to gain and hold territory.

Note the bolded part. Have they ever actually fought a border war in order to GAIN territory? That seems extremely unlikely given what we know about the Federation. It seems more likely, in fact, that the "border wars" we hear about involve the Federation setting up colonies on unclaimed world only to have some chump come along and try to colonize that same world and muscle the Federation out of it. This is literally what happened in "The Ensigns of Command" and is probably what happened with the Cardassians too. It also appears to be the case for Sherman's Planet, which was apparently discovered independently by both sides and also claimed for colonization by both sides at roughly the same time.

And then during the Dominion War we find out that the Federation has thousands of armed starships fully capable of engaging in combat against other power's military starships.

That's fine for the Dominion War when they had over a year to pull every old bucket of bolts they could find out of mothballs and slap a phaser bank on anything that would fly.

But we're talking mid 23rd century, when a single bird of prey going kamikaze in a space dock could take out almost a third of the fleet; where twenty starships gathered in one place is a very significant combat force, and where the addition of a single starship's timely arrival can turn the tide of an entire engagement. Of course, that's basically what Starfleet was BEFORE the Dominion War anyway...

The Federation in fact does have a "huge military." It's called Starfleet.

Starfleet isn't exactly "huge," and they refuse to call themselves a military organization.

More to the point, the Federation doesn't expand through conquest. The Federation expands through colonization and peaceful association. So all the new territory they gain is mostly by civilian settlers planting boots on Strange New Worlds, and by the occasional addition of New Life and New Civilizations to the Federation. And this is entirely logical in context; in a galaxy full of unclaimed planets and un-aligned civilizations, there is nothing the Federation could obtain through a military confrontation that could not be more easily gained by simply not colonizing somebody else's system. In that sense, ALL of the Federation's wars would be defensive in nature, and then the question "Should we actually fight for this?" depends purely on the material/resource investment being greater than what it would cost to defend the colony. They won't go to war over a bunch of cattle ranchers on Nimbus III, although they will definitely shove a photon torpedo up your ass if you threaten those ranchers' lives before Starfleet can evacuate them.

 

[Tenacity]

Note the bolded part. Have they ever actually fought a border war in order to GAIN territory?

Errand of Mercy, both the Federation and the Klingon wanted the same piece of territory, and they were willing to fight over it.

The same with the territorial war between the Federation and the Cardassians, millions died before the two combatants decided to divide it.

Starfleet isn't exactly "huge,"

By the numbers used during the Dominion War, Starfleet was bigger than the entire US Navy during the second world war.

and they refuse to call themselves a military organization.

Old discussion, not all military's refer to themselve by that term, still a military. Some label themselves civil servants, other's officially a branch of the countries police,

the Federation doesn't expand through conquest.

And if Starfleet had been able to defeat the Cardassian forces in combat, you're saying that the Federation wouldn't have swallowed the entirety of the formerly contested territory?

The Federation expands through colonization

Ensigns of Command, a planet in another civilization territory was colonized, Picard obviously respected the (what?) abilities to excert force, so the colonie was removed.

But if Starfleet and the Federation in general were the stronger, the colonist wouldn't of had to move.

 

[Gonzo]

Some large and heretofore unknown Beta Quadrant threat from the opposite side of their respective empires could have been occupying their time (and territory) and forcing these former enemies to reluctantly join forces to defeat them, explaining their brief TOS-era technological exchange.

I thought they considered the Federation to be the greatest threat and banded together for a while thinking they would be stronger together, eventually it becomes clear that the Federation are not a threat and the alliance falls apart.

 

[Gonzo]

Errand of Mercy, both the Federation and the Klingon wanted the same piece of territory, and they were willing to fight over it.

The same with the territorial war between the Federation and the Cardassians, millions died before the two combatants decided to divide it.By the numbers used during the Dominion War, Starfleet was bigger than the entire US Navy during the second world war. Old discussion, not all military's refer to themselve by that term, still a military. Some label themselves civil servants, other's officially a branch of the countries police,
And if Starfleet had been able to defeat the Cardassian forces in combat, you're saying that the Federation wouldn't have swallowed the entirety of the formerly contested territory? Ensigns of Command, a planet in another civilization territory was colonized, Picard obviously respected the (what?) abilities to excert force, so the colonie was removed.

But if Starfleet and the Federation in general were the stronger, the colonist wouldn't of had to move.

Yeah, even if diplomacy and culture are used to gain territory it's likely that military might will be required to hold/defend it sooner or later.

Diplomacy is all well and good but it's not enough on its own, quite often the only reason other races and factions will even come to the negotiating table is due to the military deterrent.

Which is Starfleet.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Errand of Mercy, both the Federation and the Klingon wanted the same piece of territory, and they were willing to fight over it.

Yes, and in "Errand of Mercy" the Federation's control of Organia required the consent of the actual organians. This, apparently, because Organia was strategically located for attacks on Federation colonies, which is what made it valuable in the first place.

No, the Federation and the Klingon Empire did NOT come to blows because they were both trying to conquer the same planets.

The same with the territorial war between the Federation and the Cardassians, millions died before the two combatants decided to divide it.

Yes, and by all accounts the Federation colonists got there first. The Cardassians arrived later and tried to force them out. The Federation decided that the colonies weren't actually worth fighting for and simply GAVE the Cardassians some of them.

No, the Federation and the Cardassian Union DID NOT come to blows because they were both trying to conquer the same planets.

By the numbers used during the Dominion War, Starfleet was bigger than the entire US Navy during the second world war.

And the U.S. Navy DURING the second world war was larger than it ever was before or since. The Starfleet of the mid 23rd century -- over 120 years before anyone had ever heard of the Dominion -- is smaller still, and probably so is the Federation.

And if Starfleet had been able to defeat the Cardassian forces in combat, you're saying that the Federation wouldn't have swallowed the entirety of the formerly contested territory?

No, I'm saying that in a cost-benefit analysis, it's clear that the resources they would have expended fighting the Cardassians would have been better spent doing literally anything else.

So some Cardassian assholes show up on Epsilon Pachinko V and now they don't want to live peacefully with their neighbors... you know what? Screw you guys, we're gonna go setup on Epsilon Ramada III since there's nobody there. The cost of packing up and moving is less than a tenth of what it would cost to actually fight and win over this shitty little planet, so you can have it.

The reason the Maquis are even a thing is because they wound up on the wrong side of that cost-benefit analysis. The colonies they lost weren't worth much to the Federation, but they were worth a lot TO THEM and they were willing to fight for them even when Starfleet wasn't.

Ensigns of Command, a planet in another civilization territory was colonized, Picard obviously respected the (what?) abilities to excert force, so the colonie was removed.

Nope. The colony was told to evacuate as a way of saving their lives. If they hadn't evacuated, the Shelliak would have simply massacred them. And Starfleet would be in no position to declare war on the Shelliak over a handful of squatters on a planet nobody else wanted to colonize; simply put, given the opportunity to expand into territory someone else has legitimately claimed, the Federation will always -- repeat, ALWAYS -- bow out and move on. The only time Starfleet ever fights is if you back them into a corner and force them to defend themselves -- as the Klingons in Discovery unquestionably did -- and even then they're happy to kiss and make up when your forces agree not to shoot at them anymore.

if Starfleet and the Federation in general were the stronger, the colonist wouldn't of had to move.

No. Starfleet abides by its own laws and treaties, and more importantly, they respect the sovereignty and laws of their neighbors. If the Shelliak say the planet is theirs, then the planet is theirs. Simple as that.

On the other hand, the Federation also protects its own interests with a combination of technical superiority and diplomatic prowess. So if you show up one day and say "All your starbase are belong to us!" the very first thing they'll do is analyze your ability to actually make good on this threat and then calculate how much it would cost to repel your invasion vs how much it would cost to just give you the damn starbases and build new ones after you leave.

And this isn't really a hypothetical; there is probably a very strict and well-studied set of protocols in Starfleet governing under what ciircumstances a ship or the entire fleet should simply SURRENDER rather than go down fighting. We see this in the response to the Borg threat; Starfleet knew they were outmatched, but there was no scenario where letting the Borg into the Federation would be anything but massively destructive for everyone, so they came up with ways to defeat them instead. Picard probably had this in mind when Q was chasing him in "Encounter At Farpoint". When the thing that's threatening you is basically omnipotent, the most logical thing to do is cut your losses and hope for a deal.

 

[ITDUDE]

(Israel would never be a match to the EU or US for instance).

Let's hope we never find out. I just wouldn't bet against Israel, no matter who they are facing off.

 

[Krog]

Very glad to see I stirred a good discussion!
However, the main point is still contentious. It seems from what we gather that Klingons were expansionists in nature - if anything for survival reasons. Assuming the same density of inhabitable planets and civilizations than the alpha quadrant, they MUST have crossed the path of other species and conquered them. It just seems natural.

Also, while it is true that the Federation doesn't expand through conquest, it is also true that it needs a quite sizeable army to defend itself from external threats - as deterrent if anything. After all, this is quite a large organization!

 

[Lord Garth]

The Klingon Empire is older than the Federation. Maybe Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and Telar managed to make several other worlds originally agree to join the Federation so that they have a unified front against the Klingons.

The Federation might've started off small, growing slowly and then, as it started catching on, it became the thing to join. As the Klingons began to notice the Federation growing exponentially by the early-23rd Century (70 years before TUC), and starting in the 2220s they engaged Starfleet in sporadic skirmishes to gauge their temperature. Until T'Kuvma called for all-out war against the Federation at the beginning of DSC as a means to unify the 24 Houses.

Between ENT and TOS, the Klingons might've fallen completely apart. Civil War, and a breakdown of the Empire into factions led by Houses. They were too busy to fight anyone else while they were fighting each other. Then, they turned around and saw how much the Federation grew while they weren't looking.

 

[Tenacity]

Yes, and by all accounts the Federation colonists got there first.

Sorry, but where are you getting this from?

No.

Yes, when the Gorns said that Earth outpost was their, the outpost wasn't evacuated. DS9 says it's still in Human hands, with one of Kasity Yates' brothers living there.

Nope. The colony was told to evacuate as a way of saving their lives. If they hadn't evacuated, the Shelliak would have simply massacred them.

Yes, that's what I said (but I couldn't remember "Shelliak").

It seems from what we gather that Klingons were expansionists in nature

During the 23rd century perhaps, nothing said on the matter in the 24th. The Klingons might have turned inward.

As the Klingons began to notice the Federation growing exponentially by the early-23rd Century

If anything, the Klingon would have taken serious notice when Earth and allies (maybe not the Federation yet) defeated the Romulans. Mid 2160's.

With fingers crossed, Discovery will give us a better understanding of the 23rd century Federation.

I kind of hope the opposite, I like the exact form of the Federation to be a bit vague. I've never felt that the show should focus on the Federation, yes it's occasionally there in the background, a good place to keep it.

In the 24th it's clear they're a cohesive superstate with a strong central government

From the clues we're given, it seems more of a collection of autonomous entities, than some kind of interstellar super-state.

Example, Earth would be primarily focused on the affairs and activities of Earth, with the fact they're a Federation member being a lesser concern.

Earth might have memberships in many interstellar groups.

How much time does the government of Australia spend on the average day thinking about the fact they're a part of the Commonwealth of Nations?

 

[Lord Garth]

If anything, the Klingon would have taken serious notice when Earth and allies (maybe not the Federation yet) defeated the Romulans. Mid 2160's.

This makes more sense to me as well. Which is why I'm personally not too crazy about the idea of there barely being any contact between the Federation and the Klingons for 100 years, except for a few skirmishes. I don't know. Maybe "100 years" is rounding off... Or the Federation was so small they considered it not worth their bother while they had other things to take care of.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

So it seems like the last third of the 22nd Century and the first half of the 23rd were all about expansion and making the Federation look like an attractive thing to join.

It makes me wonder what was going on with the Klingons and Romulans to make them largely stay out of the Federation's way? That's a long time. Unless they were biding their time, agreeing to stay out of the Federation's business, or were pre-occupied either internally or with other enemies.

Regarding expansion of 120 members:

Sometimes young democracies/unions expand much faster than in their later life. Maybe this is because the new union becomes attractive to many planets who have all known each other for a long time. Those 120 may have already traded extensively, and shared students.

Why did the Romulans allow it? In a way, they didn't - The Romulan War can be interpreted as a pre-emptive blitzkrieg of the Alpha Quadrant to prevent this union. The Klingons, I don't know either, but perhaps the augment virus caused social catastrophe, civil war, etc. Both empires seem to have been in a period of isolation while this new UN of democratic planets arose.

 

[Tenacity]

Why did the Romulans allow it? In a way, they didn't - The Romulan War can be interpreted as a pre-emptive blitzkrieg of the Alpha Quadrant to prevent this union.

In my own mind (head canon) it was the Romulan War that created the Federation, the war was the primary driving force that converted the Coalition of Planets into the United Federation of Planets.

If the Romulans wanted to prevent the union, they basically scissored their own junk.

 

[Krog]

The Federation is much more than the UN, simply because their laws are above each World’s laws and because Starfleet is a centralized army that provides defense to all members.

At DIS time it clearly seems Klingons liked to conquer - perhaps independently as a way to showcase each house strength. Would be cool to see a war between Klingons and Gorn or Romulans and Hirogens (after all their territories seem to be pretty close to one another).

I hope we’ll see more of the following going forward:

1. Better understanding of which worlds and cultures make up the Klingon Empire (I thought it was cool showing how the Orions live there for instance)
2. See more Federation alien races explored - not new ones, but ones we already know (be it Pakled or Angosians, Grazerites or Mizarians).