Size of other major powers needs to be addressed

[Krog]

ok, this has been bothering me for a while. As a rational (hehe) Trekkie, I can’t help but wondering how on Earth the Klingons could be a real threat to the Federation as depicted in DIS and elsewhere UNLESS they have a large empire.

Think about it: the Federation has more than 150 Worlds (onehundredfifty!) - which implies that 1. Its resources in terms of population and minerals must be huge 2. Space is densely populated.

Which implies that 1. The Klingon and Romulan Empire MUST be quite large to pose a serious threat to our beloved Federation. Now, they either are located in areas of space with zero alien races (very unlikely from what we know about ST galaxy), OR they must have conquered/assimilated many other races along the way. There is no way than a single-race empire could get as big as the Federation unless they wipe out all their neighbors - which neither the Klingon nor the Romulans seem inclined to do.

So my question is: where are all these other races and why don’t the screenwriters take the chance to introduce some of them? I think the narrative possibilities could be endless!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sounds more like a general Trek question. And one that has been discussed before.

 

[cultcross]

Hadn't been addressed in the first 700+ episodes, I think they'll manage without. Klingons, Romulans etc are exactly big enough to show up on cue and perform the plot.

 

[Lord Garth]

Think about it: the Federation has more than 150 Worlds (onehundredfifty!) - which implies that 1. Its resources in terms of population and minerals must be huge 2. Space is densely populated.

It's 150 worlds in TNG. I don't think they're quite there yet in DSC.

they must have conquered/assimilated many other races along the way.

The Klingons probably have. See "Errand of Mercy" (TOS) when Kor tries to annex Organian. Or what Worf says in "The Way of the Warrior" (DS9) about how the Klingons would kill all leaders and then install a military overseer. "If my people return to the old ways, no one will be safe."

The Romulans might have been. Which is why the Federation doesn't deal with them much in the times leading up to "Balance of Terror" (TOS) and "The Neutral Zone" (TNG).

 

[XCV330]

considering that technology seems to reach a point in Trek where it levels off, there's something of a "Grab for Africa" in the quadrant as most of these powers come into being within a few hundred years of each other. What a good plot coincidence that is. anyway in the UFP instead you have several minor powers who otherwise would have been conquered or absorbed by those surrounding them. competition seems to encourage technolgy, and the technolgy is needs-be military oriented. After the replicator and nearly endless energy why would your culture othewise not go technically stagnant. For that matter if you have the ability to virtualize, why do you actually NEED to expand, but no matter.
I would imagine from this point on, it seems as if the UFP is the technology driver, along with the Romulans, leaving everyone to play catch up and try to maintain some kind of balance of power in a status quo not unlike Europe before the Great War. Even the Organians show their hand at one point to maintain it.

All that of course goes to hell with the arrival of the Borg, and then the Dominion.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's 150 worlds in TNG. I don't think they're quite there yet in DSC.

Well they're using the 2002's TNG-era Star Trek Star Charts verbatim in their background graphics.

One really cool thing in the marketing of the first Kelvin Trek movie was a poster saying the Federation of 2258 consisted of 130ish planets (I don't recall exactly) and 700 colonies. That's how you scale things up!

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Hadn't been addressed in the first 700+ episodes, I think they'll manage without. Klingons, Romulans etc are exactly big enough to show up on cue and perform the plot.

Yeah. Trek has always worked on a one by one basis. No show ever laid out a comprehensive power dynamic. Cardassians were a major power for most of the 24th century, and we never learn about them until season four of TNG.

 

[Lord Garth]

Well they're using the 2002's TNG-era Star Trek Star Charts verbatim in their background graphics.

One really cool thing in the marketing of the first Kelvin Trek movie was a poster saying the Federation of 2258 consisted of 130ish planets (I don't recall exactly) and 700 colonies. That's how you scale things up!

Well, in that case, I guess there's Historical Precedent. United States territory expanded from Coast to Coast by the end of the 1840s and had all of its states except for two by 1912.

So maybe there was a plateau where the Federation could only expand into so many areas with without butting into other people's space. After that, you have less and less new worlds entering.

All planets in "deep space" might be colonies not developed enough to become recognized as membership worlds, if "worlds" are like "states".

 

[Krog]

Cardassians are another good example, yes. We know they subjugated Bajor, but was that the norm with other planets also? I think it’d be really cool if the authors made a mention to this, because that would add scale, dimension, and credibility to these threats.
After all, the two only real mortal threats the UFP encountered were the Dominion and the Borg, both of which subjugated hundreds (thousands?) of species.

 

[Tenacity]

Think about it: the Federation has more than 150 Worlds

The Federation uses sweet talk and candy to get young star-fairing civilizations into the Federation's van.

Which implies that 1. The Klingon and Romulan Empire MUST be quite large to pose a serious threat to our beloved Federation.

That doesn't follow. Canada is a physically large country with a proportionality small military, Israel is a tiny country with a powerful military.

Look at what the British and Japanese empires were able to do.

The Romulans could have a empire of less than dozen star systems, but used those resources to build a vast military infrastructure. They're seemingly everywhere because they want to "stay in the game."

A large portion of the Dominion's power came through it's many political and military alliances.

Modern UK swings above it's weight owing to political alliances, being a financial power house, trade agreements, military alliances, and because they simply want to.

To stay "relevant," the British have their fingers in all the pies.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

If we use the map in Discovery, and use information from the TNG era (TNG-DS9-VOY), it can be said that the Klingons expanded in the 2250s and, by the 2360s, had lost territory to the Romulans and the Federation, With the Romulan expansion, the Neutral Zone was redrawn.

Using the map from Star Trek: Star Charts, it does make a mess of some of what we learned in Enterprise. Like, how no Earth ship had traveled farther than 90 light years until the Enterprise visited Risa and how the Enterprise had visited Qo'Nos before that historic visit, yet Qo'noS is depicted as being more than 90 light years away if we take into account the real world distance of stars mentioned on the map.

 

[Krog]

The Federation uses sweet talk and candy to get young star-fairing civilizations into the Federation's van.That doesn't follow. Canada is a physically large country with a proportionality small military, Israel is a tiny country with a powerful military.

Look at what the British and Japanese empires were able to do.

The Romulans could have a empire of less than dozen star systems, but used those resources to build a vast military infrastructure. They're seemingly everywhere because they want to "stay in the game."

A large portion of the Dominion's power came through it's many political and military alliances.

Modern UK swings above it's weight owing to political alliances, being a financial power house, trade agreements, military alliances, and because they simply want to.

To stay "relevant," the British have their fingers in all the pies.

You have some good points, but also some fallacies. While size doesn't necessarily means power, in Canada's case that's due to limited population resources. In the case of the British Empire, that was due to their military and technological superiority. I don't think we can assume neither of these hold true in Star Trek - except for the cloaking devices tech seems to be on par and if anything the UFP has the largest population.

But it is true that a small country like Israel could be relevant even with a smaller size. That might be the case of Romulans and Klingons, although in that case I struggle to see how they could be more than minor powers (Israel would never be a match to the EU or US for instance).

 

[BillJ]

One really cool thing in the marketing of the first Kelvin Trek movie was a poster saying the Federation of 2258 consisted of 130ish planets (I don't recall exactly) and 700 colonies. That's how you scale things up!

Did it though? Kirk says they are on a thousand planets in "Metamorphosis".

We're on thousand planets and spreading out.

 

[cbl1]

It is not the size of your territory it is the size of your military budget.

I get that most Federation planets are non-militaristic and their societies are not based on military production.

10 Klingon planets focused on the military would probably be able to overrun 300 Federation Planets that are defenseless.

However, should the Federation be drawn into a long war of attrition - where the federations could put its full resources into action - - they would overwhelm the others once they got up to production (look at United States in World War II). Federation is a sleeping giant!

It is like the Japanese in World War II - they knew when they attacked the United States they only had a year window to grab as much territory as they could in hopes that the United States would then sue for peace. As they knew after that period the United States would have military production running that they could never hope to keep pace with.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

They don't need to have as much space to pose a threat to the Federation, but be technologically as (if not more) advanced. We've also seen that Klingons develop very quickly, so they would be able to swell their ranks faster than Starfleet, so whilst all those in their military may be Klingon there would do far more of them--especially given the emphasis their culture has on being warriors.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I had read that it was a six months window, not a year. It didn't matter. By not attacking the infrastructure which supplied and maintained the Pacific fleet, the Japanese had blown their chance. It was a costly decision.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

2160s - 4 members - ENT

2250s - 120 members and 700 colonies - Kelvinverse

2260s - "a thousand planets" - TOS "Metamorphosis"

2370s - 150 members - First Contact

They all seem to align, with maybe 120 members joining between ENT and TOS and another 30 joining between TOS and TNG.

ENT estimates 1 in 43,000 planets are inhabited, meaning more than a million inhabited planets in the Milky Way, assuming an average of one planet per star (NASA). The Federation seems to be about 200 light years wide (other problematic figures are perhaps referring to volume, or distant science stations).

There are 14,000 stars within 100 light years of Earth, but our part of the Alpha Quadrant seems quite verdant with life, perhaps owing to previous civilizations, who may have left immigrants to forget their origins over eons.

It would take Starfleet more than a billion years to visit every star in the galaxy, at a rate of 1 new star per day. In 300 years, they would cover about 0.002% at that rate.

 

[cbl1]

I had read that it was a six months window, not a year. It didn't matter. By not attacking the infrastructure which supplied and maintained the Pacific fleet, the Japanese had blown their chance. It was a costly decision.

Well - we are both correct. Yamamoto said 6 to 12 months!

"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

6 months is correct though in how long it took the US to turn the tide.

"precisely six months after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese navy would suffer a major defeat at the Battle of Midway, from which it never recovered"

Probably would have been more like 12 months had the United States lost any carriers at Pearl Harbor.


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto

 

[Lord Garth]

2160s - 4 members - ENT

2250s - 120 members and 700 colonies - Kelvinverse

2260s - "a thousand planets" - TOS "Metamorphosis"

2370s - 150 members - First Contact

They all seem to align, with maybe 120 members joining between ENT and TOS and another 30 joining between TOS and TNG.

ENT estimates 1 in 43,000 planets are inhabited, meaning more than a million inhabited planets in the Milky Way, assuming an average of one planet per star (NASA). The Federation seems to be about 200 light years wide (other problematic figures are perhaps referring to volume, or distant science stations).

There are 14,000 stars within 100 light years of Earth, but our part of the Alpha Quadrant seems quite verdant with life, perhaps owing to previous civilizations, who may have left immigrants to forget their origins over eons.

It would take Starfleet more than a billion years to visit every star in the galaxy, at a rate of 1 new star per day. In 300 years, they would cover about 0.002% at that rate.

So it seems like the last third of the 22nd Century and the first half of the 23rd were all about expansion and making the Federation look like an attractive thing to join.

It makes me wonder what was going on with the Klingons and Romulans to make them largely stay out of the Federation's way? That's a long time. Unless they were biding their time, agreeing to stay out of the Federation's business, or were pre-occupied either internally or with other enemies.

 

[cbl1]

Sounds like Klingon houses were split and not keeping tabs real well on federation expansion.