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Sisko's racial rant in Badda-Bing Badda-Bang

There is no reason to assume Sisko would ever identify as "black"- indeed, I never saw him do so in memory until this episode. Given the Benny Russell experience, it sort of makes some sense, but it's still a surprise.

If no one in Star Trek identified themselves by use of external characteristics I'd go along with your point. But that is absolutely not the case. How many times does Dax refer to her spots? How many times are the wrinkles on Bajoran noses brought up? Even the lack of forehead ridges on 23rd century Klingons gets brought up once. We even hear a Starfleet Officer call a Cardassian a Spoonhead.

An interesting point, but I would maintain that all those characteristics are indicative of species, not race. The spots are Trill, the ridges Bajoran, the "spoon" Cardassian. Sisko's species is human, not Black. I think my point stands, personally.

Sisko has a fondness of history (or at least some passing interest in it), personal experience with said history (through time travel) and a mirror so that he wouldn't identify at all as a black man seems kind of silly.

As I said, you'd be surprised how easily people do not identify with a certain label even when the image in the mirror and history and even experience are all screaming that the label fits.

[It isn't a problem when the fictional races talk about their race and its plight but the minute a black man does it its calamity from the skies.


This earns my rarely used: :rolleyes:

Where is the "calamity from the skies?" I haven't seen any in this thread, myself- most of it's been rational discussion.

Why don't you just come out and flatly accuse everyone who disagrees with you of racism, which is what this last sentence is strongly gearing towards. Apparently, we're making a fuss because Sisko/Brooks is black- so all the arguments people have put forward here for why they might find the "rant" offputting or inappropriate or simply a bit odd are being ignored and replaced in your mind with "it's because he's black".

I think you'll find I and many others here have not limited the discussion to race in any way. My own example used several times to demonstrate my points as related to the race issue were not to do with race at all, and clearly referenced attitudes and ideologies and markers of identity in general.

So no, sorry to silence your cries of "RAACCCCCISSSSTTTT!!!" but the issue is not in any way that "a black man" has done anything. It's what occurred, not the characteristics of who did it, that is being discussed. After all, we're the ones arguing the whole race thing is irrelevant. The only one insisting Sisko or Brook's race has anything to do with the discussion or the overiding issue is you.
 
An interesting point, but I would maintain that all those characteristics are indicative of species, not race. The spots are Trill, the ridges Bajoran, the "spoon" Cardassian. Sisko's species is human, not Black. I think my point stands, personally.
Humans generally don't have to distinguish themselves in Trek. In this one instance Sisko's defining trait (that he's black) comes up and he makes mention of it. Since humans lack anything like spots or ridges or lobes or breathing apparatuses, how else would someones specific branch of humanity come up if not by either where there from (a less direct path to ethnicity) or the color of their skin? It isn't any different than calling attention to any of the aforementioned.

As I said, you'd be surprised how easily people do not identify with a certain label even when the image in the mirror and history and even experience are all screaming that the label fits.
Sure, but Sisko specifically not identifying himself as a black man would be in contrast to his upbringing and his personal experiences. You're saying he didn't identify himself as a black man in spite of all that...why would he do that? Why wouldn't it just be "I'm a black man?" Why is that something he would work against?

Where is the "calamity from the skies?" I haven't seen any in this thread, myself- most of it's been rational discussion.
Well, first of all, "Calamity from the skies" was use of firey hyperbole to illustrate a point. It's a phrase that comes from FFVII and I just wanted to use it (I'd actually been looking for an excuse all day.) But if you think this whole conversation has been "civil" I'll invite you to re-read the posts where he's been charged as everything from a murderer to a racist himself for not initially (and immediately) wanting to participate in this program. The fact that its gone on for ten pages or even needs to be a thread at all in the first place is evidence enough of the "hell" those three lines of dialogue caused. I'm not spurred on any level by what Sisko said in the episode. Frankly, it's all that made the episode memorable, and it still isn't that big of a deal to me. I find that other people find it to be such a big deal interesting and that's why I'm participating in this discussion. I don't have an "agenda" to further by it.

Why don't you just come out and flatly accuse everyone who disagrees with you of racism, which is what this last sentence is strongly gearing towards.
And then there's Maude.


-Withers-​
 
In this one instance Sisko's defining trait (that he's black) comes up and he makes mention of it.

How on earth is being black Sisko's "defining trait"? Is "being white" O'Brien's defining trait?


I don't get the "Maude" reference, but yes, your post did imply accusations of racism- as I said, this is not about race at all. It is about many things- how we self-identify and label ourselves, how we identify with historical figures or our ancestors, how we construct a sense of our own righteousness or sense of victimization that can be blinding, where we draw the line in making political or social commentary, etc. It is NOT however about "a black man made a speech! And he's black!" which is what you flat out accused us all of. You said "but when a black man does it, it's calamity from the skies", clearly implying that the reason for the supposed calamity is because he is a black man. As though it'd be fine to have anyone else make a "rant" of this kind on any other topic, but because this is a black man and the race issue, that must be informing our response. Did I not make the point that anyone, making any sort of "rant" or social commentary, would be considered by some people inappropriate and irritating in some contexts or if made too often?

This is not about race. It's about the "rant". You just made it about race, however, by insisting we're all responding to "a black man" rather than simply a so-called "rant". This is why I'm annoyed.
 
How on earth is being black Sisko's "defining trait"? Is "being white" O'Brien's defining trait?
In this one scenario where we're talking about him participating in a recreation of 1962 Las Vegas it is very much a defining trait. In this one, unique situation, the fact that he was black defined his initial response (which changed as we all know.) Obrien being white never came up and it was never necessary that it be mentioned. It wasn't like Sisko was forever railing on about the plight of African Americans. He mentioned it this one time in what I thought was a completely appropriate fashion (to his wife, in private).

I don't get the "Maude" reference
I was kind of making fun of you but in a very playful and harmless, inoffensive way. It was my way of saying I'm not going to get into discussions of whether or not people are racists based on their interpretations of the behavior of a fictional man in the 24th century. If I implied I was willing to do so I apologize (kind of :)) For the record I do not think you are a racist for not liking the scene.


-Withers-​
 
How on earth is being black Sisko's "defining trait"? Is "being white" O'Brien's defining trait?
In this one scenario where we're talking about him participating in a recreation of 1962 Las Vegas it is very much a defining trait. In this one, unique situation, the fact that he was black defined his initial response (which changed as we all know.) Obrien being white never came up and it was never necessary that it be mentioned. It wasn't like Sisko was forever railing on about the plight of African Americans. He mentioned it this one time in what I thought was a completely appropriate fashion (to his wife, in private).

Fair enough. I see what you're saying. I don't think I see things your way, but I do understand your position.

[
I don't get the "Maude" reference
I was kind of making fun of you but in a very playful and harmless, inoffensive way. It was my way of saying I'm not going to get into discussions of whether or not people are racists based on their interpretations of the behavior of a fictional man in the 24th century. If I implied I was willing to do so I apologize (kind of :)) For the record I do not think you are a racist for not liking the scene.



-Withers-​

:) And I'm sorry for getting a little on my high horse there. I'm quite posibly far too wary and jumpy. And having re-read some of the earlier posts I'd forgotten about, I see where the comment you made came from. I think I misread it and so misrepresented it. I'm not retreating from my points, but I see a bit more clearly the concern you had after reading all the way through again.
 
This makes me wonder how many Vics 'died' if other users of the program failed to beat the jack-in-the-box. Damn that insidious Felix! Or was this a special program only for Bashir?

And, um, he doesn't die, per se. The program is reset and, as witnessed with the VOY's Doc, that doesn't seem to be all that bad of a thing to happen to a sophisticated hologram, as they'll be right back to normal in a month or two.:p
 
Incidentally, did anyone ever actually refer to the fact that the Doctor wasn't supposed to remember anything before "The Swarm," or did we all just quietly agree to pretend that never happened? Off-hand, I can remember that the Doctor remembered "Caretaker" in "Author, Author."
 
Incidentally, did anyone ever actually refer to the fact that the Doctor wasn't supposed to remember anything before "The Swarm," or did we all just quietly agree to pretend that never happened? Off-hand, I can remember that the Doctor remembered "Caretaker" in "Author, Author."
I'd imagine by that point he'd have been filled in on prior events, or had read logs, or perhaps even did holo-simulations to recreate specific events, essentially 're-living' them again.
 
While I was growing up it used to have graffiti saying "UP THE IRA"

Time for the obligatory moment of immaturity here...

To an American that has potential to read as a very weird statement. Without "WITH" in the sentence, it's easy to look at that and think it looks like an unfinished sentence...and ask the question, "up the IRA's what?"
I suppose SOME Americans, at least those too young to remember the 1960s and '70s, might be confused about the meaning of up as in "Up the workers!" as opposed to "Up yours!"
 
Wouldn't you reasonably assume he identified himself as being black somewhere along the line of things he identified with? Sure, he was a Starfleet Officer, a human, a captain, a diplomat, etc. But, based on his cultural upbringing isn't it reasonable to assume he also identified himself as a black man? The only alternative is to omit that fact and when there are mirrors and reflective surfaces... that is something of a challenge.

No, I don't see why he would necessarilly see his skin colour as having any meaning in his self-identification. Why should looking in a mirror make him say "I have brown skin- and this is significant"? First of all, in his society it doesn't mean anything. If there's no distinction between white, black, green, whatever, why would one see that as a mark of self-identification?

Well, the first thing I would say is that Sisko isn't reacting to his skin color per se. What he is reacting to is his heritage as an African-American; that is a culture that was categorized by its members' skin tones, of course, but being an African-American means far more than just a skin tone.

Yes, Star Trek posits a future where there is no more discrimination, no more oppression, no more bigotry amongst Human beings. Everybody is equal; Earth is egalitarian.

But Star Trek does not, and DS9 did not, depict, and Star Trek has never depicted, a future where one's culture and one's heritage are meaningless. Pavel Chekov still cared about his Russian heritage (even if this was played for laughs); Kirk was proud of his heritage as an American (as evidenced in "The Omega Glory"); McCoy rather obviously considered himself a son of the American South; Picard was proud of his French heritage (in spite of his English accent!); Riker was proud of the fact that he was an American and an Alaskan to boot; O'Brien was proud of his Irish heritage; Chakotay was proud of his heritage as a Native American.

Now, to be fair, Star Trek has often done a poor job of depicting a future where Human culture has not essentially been assimilated by Anglo-American culture. We didn't necessarily see someone who was proudly Chinese or Indian or Latino; characters like Sulu or Kim or Sato have tended to be depicted in a manner that mediates their status as non-Europeans by depicting them as people who are part of a more homogenized American culture that is often depicted as dominating Earth itself.

Nonetheless, Star Trek has also always retained characters who are very proudly ethnic, and this has never not been the case.

If Jean-Luc Picard can define himself as a Frenchman in addition to seeing himself as Human, or if Pavel Chekov can be proud of his heritage as a Russian in addition to his Humanity, or if McCoy can see himself as a Southern gentleman and an American and a Human, then why can't Benjamin Sisko see himself as an African-American, an American, a Human, and a Federate?

Why, exactly, is the idea that he still self-identifies as an African-American a threatening thing, unless you're trying to claim that self-identifying with an ethnic or racial identity is automatically un-egalitarian?

There is no reason to assume Sisko would ever identify as "black"- indeed, I never saw him do so in memory until this episode. Given the Benny Russell experience, it sort of makes some sense, but it's still a surprise.

I don't think so. He was an African-American Human Federate, born of two African-American Human Federates, who married two African-American Human Federates, who maintained an interest in his culture's and sub-culture's history (both American and African-American) all throughout the series (as indicated by his knowledge of American history and his collection of African artwork). It may not have been as overt as Picard's switching into French to curse or Bashir singing "Jerusalem" whilst drunk and playing the Battle of Britain, but it was always there.

And, frankly, I think that the world would be a much sadder, much more homogenized, and much poorer place if African-American culture were to disappear or be subsumed into a larger culture. Diversity and multiculturalism within an egalitarian, democratic framework are what it's all about.
 
Oh, I shouldn't think so!

When Bashir explains what happened to the cast, they take it very seriously. They all resolve to help Vic--especially Nog, for obvious reasons.

They certainly cared for Vic. The fact that they were having fun helping him does not take away from that.

They were taking it "seriously" in the same sense that they were taking the baseball game against the Vulcan crew "seriously".

They were treating it like a game they wanted to win, but still just a game.


Again, when they first discussed it, they were ALL taking it seriously (Except Worf and Sisko, of course).

They were pretty solemn talking about the implications of losing their friend. Again, Nog was particularly memorable.

They started having fun after they resolved to help Vic.
 
Wouldn't you reasonably assume he identified himself as being black somewhere along the line of things he identified with? Sure, he was a Starfleet Officer, a human, a captain, a diplomat, etc. But, based on his cultural upbringing isn't it reasonable to assume he also identified himself as a black man? The only alternative is to omit that fact and when there are mirrors and reflective surfaces... that is something of a challenge.

No, I don't see why he would necessarilly see his skin colour as having any meaning in his self-identification. Why should looking in a mirror make him say "I have brown skin- and this is significant"? First of all, in his society it doesn't mean anything. If there's no distinction between white, black, green, whatever, why would one see that as a mark of self-identification?

Well, the first thing I would say is that Sisko isn't reacting to his skin color per se. What he is reacting to is his heritage as an African-American; that is a culture that was categorized by its members' skin tones, of course, but being an African-American means far more than just a skin tone.

Yes, Star Trek posits a future where there is no more discrimination, no more oppression, no more bigotry amongst Human beings. Everybody is equal; Earth is egalitarian.

But Star Trek does not, and DS9 did not, depict, and Star Trek has never depicted, a future where one's culture and one's heritage are meaningless. Pavel Chekov still cared about his Russian heritage (even if this was played for laughs); Kirk was proud of his heritage as an American (as evidenced in "The Omega Glory"); McCoy rather obviously considered himself a son of the American South; Picard was proud of his French heritage (in spite of his English accent!); Riker was proud of the fact that he was an American and an Alaskan to boot; O'Brien was proud of his Irish heritage; Chakotay was proud of his heritage as a Native American.

Now, to be fair, Star Trek has often done a poor job of depicting a future where Human culture has not essentially been assimilated by Anglo-American culture. We didn't necessarily see someone who was proudly Chinese or Indian or Latino; characters like Sulu or Kim or Sato have tended to be depicted in a manner that mediates their status as non-Europeans by depicting them as people who are part of a more homogenized American culture that is often depicted as dominating Earth itself.

Nonetheless, Star Trek has also always retained characters who are very proudly ethnic, and this has never not been the case.

If Jean-Luc Picard can define himself as a Frenchman in addition to seeing himself as Human, or if Pavel Chekov can be proud of his heritage as a Russian in addition to his Humanity, or if McCoy can see himself as a Southern gentleman and an American and a Human, then why can't Benjamin Sisko see himself as an African-American, an American, a Human, and a Federate?

Why, exactly, is the idea that he still self-identifies as an African-American a threatening thing, unless you're trying to claim that self-identifying with an ethnic or racial identity is automatically un-egalitarian?

There is no reason to assume Sisko would ever identify as "black"- indeed, I never saw him do so in memory until this episode. Given the Benny Russell experience, it sort of makes some sense, but it's still a surprise.

I don't think so. He was an African-American Human Federate, born of two African-American Human Federates, who married two African-American Human Federates, who maintained an interest in his culture's and sub-culture's history (both American and African-American) all throughout the series (as indicated by his knowledge of American history and his collection of African artwork). It may not have been as overt as Picard's switching into French to curse or Bashir singing "Jerusalem" whilst drunk and playing the Battle of Britain, but it was always there.

And, frankly, I think that the world would be a much sadder, much more homogenized, and much poorer place if African-American culture were to disappear or be subsumed into a larger culture. Diversity and multiculturalism within an egalitarian, democratic framework are what it's all about.

I certainly see what you're saying. I just see it a bit different- maybe a consequence of my own rather unusual means of self-identification. :)

But again, I don't see what race has to do with culture. I've acknowledged Sisko clearly identifies with certain cultures. No-one's questioining his cultural heritage and his obvious appreciation of it. But that does not equate to identifying with race. You yourself used "African-American". That is quite, quite different from "black". I mean, I'm Anglo-Saxon/Roman British. That's quite, quite different from "white".

Identifying as African-American or with whatever cultures produced the masks in his quarters, or Kassidy identifying with the Xhosa is normal. As you say, no different from Picard as French or McCoy as "Southern Gentleman". But that does not mean he would identify as "black". What does colour have to do with culture?
 
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I agree it was ill-advised. I don't know whether it was the fault of the scriptwriters or Brooks' idea but it was completely out of place in the context of a space station some time in the future.


If you have no idea whether or not it was Brook's idea then you shouldn't bring his name into this. I'm sorry but its tiring that whenever this topic comes up some people assume it was Brooks who had the writers make mention of the racism in the script. Behr said long ago it was his idea to address the racial angle. No one ever implied in the behind-the-scenes writeups that Brooks had anything to do with that angle they explored.
 
That has gotta be the most cringe worthy moment on DS9.

It is certainly right up there. Utterly ludicrous.

Although I would contend a bigger cringeworthy moment on DS9 might be Jadzia Dax having the gall to criticize Victor Hugo, a bonafide literary master, as writing one-dimensional female characters, despite the fact that Jadzia herself is one of the most one-dimensional female characters ever written. :rolleyes:

As for those saying that Bashir is English and/or British: he's neither. Siddig has said in interviews that Bashir has no discernable racial identity, and in fact that is why he appreciates the role so much (because he usually gets typecast as evil Arab terrorists).
 
People aren't as dumb as he thinks ,and there's a thing they teach kids in school...history.

I don't know....When I was in school and we were taught the history if the 19th century, we were taught that Indians were evil savages. I learned the real story literally from watching Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman. I followed this up by reading other history books that were not used in school.

Sometimes school is worthless.
 
I didn't have any problem with that dialogue. Star Trek has been drawing comparisons between now and the future for various issues since TOS.

But remember this is post FAR BEYOND THE STARS Sisko. He's walked a mental mile in the shoes of a pre-civil rights era African American man.

Agreed.
 
As for those saying that Bashir is English and/or British: he's neither. Siddig has said in interviews that Bashir has no discernable racial identity, and in fact that is why he appreciates the role so much (because he usually gets typecast as evil Arab terrorists).

What's funny is I'd always assumed the character was Indian/Pakistani.

I should note, BTW, that Siddig's roles aren't always evil. He got to be an angel in The Nativity Story. :D (Granted, I haven't seen a lot of movies he's been in, but that was actually the first I saw that wasn't DS9.)
 
As for those saying that Bashir is English and/or British: he's neither. Siddig has said in interviews that Bashir has no discernable racial identity, and in fact that is why he appreciates the role so much (because he usually gets typecast as evil Arab terrorists).

What's funny is I'd always assumed the character was Indian/Pakistani.

I should note, BTW, that Siddig's roles aren't always evil. He got to be an angel in The Nativity Story. :D (Granted, I haven't seen a lot of movies he's been in, but that was actually the first I saw that wasn't DS9.)

He was also in 24, I believe. I didn't see that season yet, though.

I don't know...was he a bad guy, then?

(I WILL say that His Awesomeness CAPTAIN ROBAU is in 24 Season 2. Watch it.)
 
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