Sisko

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Horta, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Discofan

    Discofan Fleet Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Picard's condition is very close to that of a rape victim, the Borg took over his body and pillaged his mind and he was aware the whole time while being unable to do anything about it. However, Sisko is acting as if Picard either volunteered or ended up collaborating willingly with the borg. It's very close to how imbeciles nowadays or more frequently a while ago behaved toward rape victim, ostracized them even as if they were rendered "impure" by the assault.

    I don't understand how you can't see how close these two situations are.

    A rape victim once put that very accurately: "It's as if I was raped a second time in front of a whole court of law by the lawyer of that sleazebag."
     
  2. Discofan

    Discofan Fleet Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    I don't know of anyone who's ever expressed remorse for atrocities they've committed while belonging to the Hitler youth, and definitely not murder. It's more likely that they would keep quiet about the whole thing until they were found out which hasn't happened very often.
     
  3. Michael

    Michael Le modérateur de fanart Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Location:
    Aloha Quadrant
    Since rape victims seldom (if ever) end up killing innocent people while being raped, I fail to see the relevance to the feelings Sisko displays towards Picard in “Emissary”. :shrug:

    As for Avery Brooks' portrayal of Sisko, I always loved it! He's the single most intense and strong actor on the show and I can't imagine anyone else in the role. I'm with the “Sisko is my Captain” folks. ;)
     
    Bry_Sinclair and Farscape One like this.
  4. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Location:
    Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
    Since I want to avoid the typical "Google is your friend," I'll give one name: Melita Maschmann. Otherwise, the literature on Denazification is extensive, full of remorse, guilt , indifference, even defiance. You should explore it.
     
    Bry_Sinclair likes this.
  5. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
    Location:
    On the run.
    Because, as Michael said, the two situations aren't remotely the same. Sisko isn't angry at Picard for letting himself be raped, (or controlled against his will) he's angry at him because his wife died.
     
    Bry_Sinclair likes this.
  6. marlboro

    marlboro Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015

    [​IMG]
     
    Tim Thomason and Ar-Pharazon like this.
  7. Discofan

    Discofan Fleet Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    That doesn't make any sense.

    It's like saying: "I am not angry with you for getting raped, I angry with you because WHILE you were being raped the vibrations made a flowerpot fall on my head!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  8. marlboro

    marlboro Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Instead of the rape analogy, why not compare it to a soldier who is tortured, breaks, and gives up information that leads to the death of some of his allies? Would it be more understandable that his compatriots would harbor some anger towards him? I think so. It may be somewhat irrational anger, but it would be understandable. Particularly when you are talking about someone who has lost a family member.
     
  9. Discofan

    Discofan Fleet Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    That's not that at all. Picard never had a chance to resist. There are several cases of people who were tortured to death and who demonstrably never gave up any information to show how insulting and unfair that comparison is. If you want to make comparisons then do it with some justice and compare it to when Armus forced Data to point a gun at Geordi. Sisko's overtly aggressive tone was no more justified than if he was talking to the gun that killed someone and accusing it instead of the guy who willingly pulled the trigger.

    I didn't like Sisko in that scene and thought that he behaved like an asshole. If that scene was the first glimpse I've had at the series. I would have probably never watched any more of it.

    If my second glimpse at the series was Sisko ordering a reluctant Worf to bombard a planet with children on it, I would have definitely stopped watching that series for good.

    I watched that series in spite of Sisko's occasional bouts of lunacy not because of them.
     
  10. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Location:
    Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
    Picard's situation is analogous to that of a child soldier being indoctrinated. He is being forced to kill and rape. He is a victim, but so are the lives of those that are being destroyed.
     
  11. marlboro

    marlboro Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    I think the point is that sisko irrationally blames Picard for his wife's death. Learning to let that go is a big part of what the episode is about.

    "Why didn't Picard resist? I would have!" Or "would the Borg even have attacked if Picard hadn't ticked off Q?" Are questions that I think that someone who is as devastated emotionally as Sisko was might (unfairly) be asking themselves.

    I think part of Ben's perceived "assholishness" comes from the fact that we watched everything from TNG's point of view. If we had only seen Wolf 359 from Siskos vantage point, his rage at seeing Picard might be more understandable.
     
  12. Michael

    Michael Le modérateur de fanart Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Location:
    Aloha Quadrant
    I just love the Picard/Sisko scene, because it's kind of deconstructivist, unexpected and daring. The safe option would have been to have Sisko be Picard's old pal or something like that. But no, fuck Picard and his perfect world on his perfect ship. Sisko is not a perfect human being, but someone who's angry and sad and wants to throw it all away. The scene's job is to show that this is not TNG, but its own thing. And it does that pretty perfectly, I feel.
     
    Markonian, fireproof78, PT109 and 5 others like this.
  13. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Sunny California
    "Emissary" is one the most compelling piece of television episodic material I've ever seen on Star Trek. Avery Brooks' Commander Sisko is a gem of a presence and personality to conviege the deep seeded pain of losing the woman he loved, looking directly in the eyes of the person who strategically murdered his friends and making him a widower, and becoming a single parent.

    In the pilot, the way Brooks looks and touches his son's face, there's a deep sense of love and heartfelt regret he lost his wife. Brooks expresses all the emotions to carry the series and it's penultimate conclusion. He breaks down with the wormhole aliens to learn as much as he claims he's linear but the past was where he lies. He couldn't let go of Jennifer and the chemistry between Felicia Bell was magnetic.

    I honestly don't know what the thread host is trying to pull but it's disrespectful to give the notion Brooks was a terrible actor. There's nothing in his work to present such a thing. And his work was far moving and convincing than being trumped over by all the bells and whistles dumped over in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th seasons of DS9.

    DS9 was what it was but it was in a far better place being a series which created it's own subculture, 3 dimensional-compelling characters and identity and showing a man or woman could raise their child in the worst of places and being okay. In contrast to a ridiculous War series where all contrivances with Gods and Devils and super maniacal comic booky characters do a lot of stupid things to kill themselves which all ends with Odo simply linking with the head Changeling and mind manipulate her.

    If anyone care to watch other works from Mr. Brooks you'll see his interpretation of Sisko was a choice because those mannerisms are not in his other character pieces. Spenser: For Hire is an example of this man's brilliance in acting.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
    Nakita Akita, kkt and Michael like this.
  14. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I don't think that's quite the same thing. A person indoctrinated into a cult was in an altered mental state but he still made the choice to pull that trigger. Picard had zero control of his own body, and anything he did was not his decision, it was the decision of the collective. It's more like if somebody drugged you, and while you were asleep, put a gun in your hand and squeezed your finger onto the trigger.

    Or maybe a good analogy is if somebody is turned into a vampire, then kills somebody, and then later is somehow turned back to a human.
     
  15. iliescu

    iliescu Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Location:
    Byzantium
    Am neutral about Sisko.
     
  16. Horta

    Horta Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Interesting takes on the scene with Picard and Sisko. In my view, Picard and Sisko are completely different men. Picard is both reserved and self aware. Sisko is hot headed, angry and not yet self aware.

    Picard had been completely assimilated, he was acting as the voice or the liason for the borg--- it was not Picard who was attacking federation ships, it was the borg. If Picard was killed, the cube would have continued on to sector 001. Picard underwent counseling and he had feelings of guilt and horror of being striped of humanity and being used as tool against all that he loved. But he continued on with his job, not wearing it on his sleeve.

    Sisko on the other hand is not quite as aware, he is still working on things and has not dealt with his tragedy. He seems to blame Picard...which is similar to a person who is angry at someone for getting a disease because it adversely affects them. When a person gains some wisdom, they recognize the sick person is suffering, and the anger that is misdirected at the victim disappears. Sisko has an experience in the worm hole that opens his eyes, and he realizes he is not seeing full reality. He is living in the past. He was stuck, not seeing things as they really are: His wife is gone forever and he must continue with life, and Picard was a victim too.

    I don't think Picard was rude to Sisko. When Sisko was disrespectful, instead of lashing back, Picard clearly hears Sisko's pain, and he just lets it be said, you can see it register in Picard's head- he understands Sisko's pain. Because of his own feelings of guilt, Picard excepts Sisko's rudeness as understandable. When Sisko continues with his angry tone, and clearly states he dos not want the position, it makes sense for Picard to bring up the idea of replacement.
    Becasue Sisko was living in the past, and focusing on blame, he could not really live. By focusing on blame, it kept his mind away from the deepest pain (his wife is gone forever and he has to leave her behind and live). He got stuck, growth stopped...until he entered the wormhole.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    Jayson1 likes this.
  17. at Quark's

    at Quark's Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    I think it would have been an interesting idea to let Sisko and Picard meet again, in season 6 or 7, to show how Sisko had since moved on as a person....
     
    grendelsbayne and marlboro like this.
  18. Discofan

    Discofan Fleet Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Maybe Picard would have said something about his bombarding a planet with children on it.
     
  19. at Quark's

    at Quark's Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    ^Then Sisko could have rightfully retorted about Picard's willingness to let an entire pre-industrial species die because he wasn't willing to violate the Prime Directive. That species only survived because Worf's brother forced his hand.
     
  20. Discofan

    Discofan Fleet Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    I am not excusing Picard following Starfleet orders and abiding by the prime directive which he, after all, swore he'd do when he took the job but it's way worse to shoot at children against not only Starfleet standing orders, but also basic decency.

    It's the difference between a coward and a criminal. Picard being the former and Sisko the latter.