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Should we get books that are accepted as part of canon?

Jayson

Vice Admiral
Admiral
Just a fun idea but to be different would you like to see future Trek novels, when it comes to Abramsverse be seen as part of the canon? Do with Trek books what happened with the Star Wars novels. Oviously they proably wouldn't want to see anything done that might interfere with the future movies but it would be a chance to expand on the Abramsverse and give it more depth.

What I think would be fun is to have Abrams or the movie writers basically list off some things they would like to see done in the books and a few idea's they would like to see and then have the book writers take these idea's and make them into books.


Jason
 
Do with Trek books what happened with the Star Wars novels

Where as soon as Lucas puts something on screen anything in the books is wiped over - isn't that what we already have?
 
Pretty much, yeah. Although the Trek people don't bother trying to convince people the books are canon, when that is pretty clearly not true.
 
Just a fun idea but to be different would you like to see future Trek novels, when it comes to Abramsverse be seen as part of the canon?

The books are read by 1% of the audience. Now you want movies that must conform to all factoids laid out in the licensed tie-ins, written by writers who otherwise have no influence whatsoever about the direction of the new movies?

What I think would be fun is to have Abrams or the movie writers basically list off some things they would like to see done in the books and a few idea's they would like to see and then have the book writers take these idea's and make them into books.
Well, "Countdown". And lots of people hated that! Why not let the screenwriters, you know, like... write the movies?
 
There have been books that were regarded as part of the canon: Jeri Taylor's Mosaic and Pathways. Since she was VGR's showrunner at the time and therefore defined canon, she was able to say the books counted. But as soon as she was replaced in that post, the books were ignored and contradicted.

Even canon itself is a mutable thing; any long-running canon will eventually disregard, contradict, or at least reinterpret earlier portions of itself. It's all the more likely to happen with supplementary material like books, something that's only an adjunct to the main canon and is only known to a tiny percentage of the audience. So claiming that a book is canonical has no real significance in the long run. As has been proven with both Voyager and Star Wars, the claim carries no real weight because it does not even remotely prevent the makers of future material from contradicting the books if it suits their needs.

Ultimately, the only way to have canonical tie-ins to a franchise is if the franchise ceases to exist onscreen. I don't think that's what we want for Star Trek.
 
Should we get books that are accepted as part of canon?

No.

To be honest I don't give a flying fuck regarding what is and isn't "canon." Personally, pretty much everything that is part of Televised Trek is "real" and in it's own continuity, plus, so are pretty much all the Trek books that I've read I regard as part of that.

So for example, the events of Serpents among the ruins, although a very good read and regarded as "not real" and not part of "canon" it is part of my own personal continuity and is how the Tomad incident went down. The same can be said for the post finale Deep Space Nine novels and the Next Generation, Titan and Voyager novels pre and post Nemesis.
 
Just a fun idea but to be different would you like to see future Trek novels, when it comes to Abramsverse be seen as part of the canon?

The books are read by 1% of the audience. Now you want movies that must conform to all factoids laid out in the licensed tie-ins, written by writers who otherwise have no influence whatsoever about the direction of the new movies?

What I think would be fun is to have Abrams or the movie writers basically list off some things they would like to see done in the books and a few idea's they would like to see and then have the book writers take these idea's and make them into books.
Well, "Countdown". And lots of people hated that! Why not let the screenwriters, you know, like... write the movies?


Well I don't think the books should be done in away that can inferere with what Abrams is doing,which is why I would like to see Abrams involved in some fashion. The 1% audience thing doesn't bother me. I don't think the books should do something that you can't ignore like killing off Scotty or something. I like the idea of doing something that basically gives the Abramsverse more depth to those who read them in the same way "Countdown" I felt gave Nero more depth than he would otherwise.

Let's say for example you do a book about Prime Spock and the book ends with him being made Ambassador to earth. When the next movie rolls around and you want to use to character then keep him as ambassador of earth. I don't see how this would be such a complicated idea to the casual fans they would be confused. Will they totally confused by the situation just because they didn't read the book?

Jason
 
^It's got nothing to do with confusion. The creators of a canon have the right to make their own decisions about what to do with it. And that includes the right to change their minds. As I said, even if a book were declared canon, it wouldn't and couldn't prevent the filmmakers from reversing that declaration if it suited the needs of the story they had to tell.

Consistency is not the overarching purpose of fiction. The purpose of fiction is to tell entertaining and engaging stories. If consistency serves that goal, then consistency is maintained. But if consistency conflicts with that goal, it will and should be set aside. This is why declarations of canon are unimportant and requests for strict continuity are misguided. Continuity is a tool, not an end in itself.
 
Let's say for example you do a book about Prime Spock and the book ends with him being made Ambassador to earth. When the next movie rolls around and you want to use to character then keep him as ambassador of earth. I don't see how this would be such a complicated idea to the casual fans they would be confused. Will they totally confused by the situation just because they didn't read the book?

Jason

It simply, as Christopher notes, cannot works like that - no screenwriter or director is going to allow himself to be limited by something read by a tiny percentage of people.
 
Christopher;3025708 Consistency is not the overarching purpose of fiction. The purpose of fiction is to tell entertaining and engaging stories. If consistency serves that goal said:
I disagree.

I understand everything that has ever been said about all of the stories not supposed to fit together perfectly. I know that all of the comics and novels were never written to go into one continuity.

However, I do not think requests for strict continuity are misguided.
 
I don't see how canon is a limitation. If anything it presents dramatic opportinuties. Spock's human side that was already established for example helps make the scene were he becomes violent more credible. Vulcan being destroyed is helped by the fact we are familiar with the planet.

I don't see anything wrong in using books to enhance the details of this new universe and flesh out the new timeline. Most of what is done won't contradict what they do in the movies and if done right it will only enhance it for Star Trek fans who read the books. Casual fans will be oblivious of course but it's not like a huge plot point is ever going to built around something in a book or if it does the movie will make sure to explain what is happening for fans who didn't read the books.

Let's say for example they write a book about Spock being made ambassador to earth because he is giving starfleet info on future tech.

You then want to establish in the new movie that the Section 31 has gotten hold of this new tech for some villian plot. It's ovious that the new movie wouldn't just asume the audience already knows about Spock giving Starfleet future tech. They would use dialogue or some sort of dramatic device to set this all up within the movie for the audience that is unfamiliar with this.

Jason
 
God invented retcons for a reason. It just takes the creativity to do it properly.
 
God invented retcons for a reason. It just takes the creativity to do it properly.


That's also something I agree with. Most canon can be ignored and respected at the sametime. It does help if your a fan and you know the Trekverse which means you know plenty of ways to get around a canon issue. In fact the Trek books do a good job at this IMO. How many trek books have had to work around bad idea's presented in the tv shows only to make them work. Didn't they just do a book that basically explains how Trip isn't dead.

Jason
 
Well I don't think the books should be done in away that can inferere with what Abrams is doing,which is why I would like to see Abrams involved in some fashion.

But you said you wanted "the movie writers basically list off some things they would like to see done in the books and a few idea's they would like to see and then have the book writers take these idea's and make them into books". Combined with the title of your thread, you want these ideas to be part of the canon? - so, when we roll up to see the second movie, things will happen that only happen because a book (read by only 1% of the audience) made them happen that way.

Let's say for example you do a book about Prime Spock and the book ends with him being made Ambassador to earth. When the next movie rolls around and you want to use to character then keep him as ambassador of earth. I don't see how this would be such a complicated idea to the casual fans they would be confused.
But why does this particular storyline have to be mandated (by JJ Abrams' team of screenwriters) to the Pocket authors? Pocket's authors are talented enough to come up with their own storylines. All ST tie-ins derive from canonical events anyway.

I don't see anything wrong in using books to enhance the details of this new universe and flesh out the new timeline. Most of what is done won't contradict what they do in the movies and if done right it will only enhance it for Star Trek fans who read the books.

But this is what every ST novel has always done in the original timeline! What's different?
 
I sometimes wonder how some people can actually enjoy Trek, since they spend so much time worrying about what parts of it are "really real" and which parts "don't count."

None of it is real. Move on.
 
The concept of a canonical novel is misguided at best, I think. Having said that, I would certainly enjoy it if future Trek films or TV shows were consistent with what was established about the Federation system of government in A Time to Kill, A Time to Heal, A Time for War, A Time For Peace, Articles of the Federation, Destiny, and A Singular Destiny.
 
Well I don't think the books should be done in away that can inferere with what Abrams is doing,which is why I would like to see Abrams involved in some fashion.

But you said you wanted "the movie writers basically list off some things they would like to see done in the books and a few idea's they would like to see and then have the book writers take these idea's and make them into books". Combined with the title of your thread, you want these ideas to be part of the canon? - so, when we roll up to see the second movie, things will happen that only happen because a book (read by only 1% of the audience) made them happen that way.

Let's say for example you do a book about Prime Spock and the book ends with him being made Ambassador to earth. When the next movie rolls around and you want to use to character then keep him as ambassador of earth. I don't see how this would be such a complicated idea to the casual fans they would be confused.
But why does this particular storyline have to be mandated (by JJ Abrams' team of screenwriters) to the Pocket authors? Pocket's authors are talented enough to come up with their own storylines. All ST tie-ins derive from canonical events anyway.

I don't see anything wrong in using books to enhance the details of this new universe and flesh out the new timeline. Most of what is done won't contradict what they do in the movies and if done right it will only enhance it for Star Trek fans who read the books.

But this is what every ST novel has always done in the original timeline! What's different?


What I mean is I would like to see what the movie writers views are on things they would like to see happen in the Abramsverse. Not just things they would like to do in the next movie. Basically I would like to see them give more depth to the overall framework in which the movie's will be set in. As a rule I figure this movies will mostly be told from the "Enterprise" crew. I wouldn't want alot of canon books. I proably should have mentioned that as well. Maybe 5 at most. You don't want to many of these because you don't want to start getting corned when it comes to the movies of having to keep track of all these books. These 5 books would more or less explore how this Federation different, what life is like for Vulcans etc.

Explore things that won't be touched in the movies or they can't explore at great depth. Make them part of canon to give them more meaning, because I think they would be more important than some Trek books since we know so little about the Abramsverse. Once again I use the "Countdown" comic as a example. I felt that was a perfect example of how to aproach these books. Something that is canon(well it might not be but most of us thought it was) that more or line matches up to what we see in the movies but also doesn't hold back the movies.

Jason
 
What I mean is I would like to see what the movie writers views are on things they would like to see happen in the Abramsverse.

Which is something they're naturally not going to give away in advance, because that would spoil future movies. Abrams & co. keep very, very tight security on their productions. Even Alan Dean Foster didn't get brought in to do the novelization until two months after the film was completed, which made things very difficult for Pocket because of the extremely compressed production schedule that was necessary to get the novel out in time for the premiere. So if you're saying you want the filmmakers to let the novelists in on their plans for the film series, you'd have just as much luck wishing for a Vulcan ship to land in Central Park and deliver actual Federation history records to the Pocket Books offices.


Not just things they would like to do in the next movie. Basically I would like to see them give more depth to the overall framework in which the movie's will be set in. As a rule I figure this movies will mostly be told from the "Enterprise" crew. I wouldn't want alot of canon books. I proably should have mentioned that as well. Maybe 5 at most. You don't want to many of these because you don't want to start getting corned when it comes to the movies of having to keep track of all these books. These 5 books would more or less explore how this Federation different, what life is like for Vulcans etc.

Based on what we've seen so far, if the filmmakers did do anything like that, they'd probably do it in comics rather than prose. And even thought Kurtzman & Orci co-plotted the Countdown comic, Orci is on record as saying that he does not consider it part of the canon. Tie-ins are supplements. The canon is the core work in its original medium, by definition. Everything else is secondary. As I said, even if you slapped the word "canon" on a book, that wouldn't prevent it from being contradicted in the next film if the filmmakers had a better idea in the meantime, so it would be a meaningless designation.

And filmmakers do change their minds all the time. Just this morning, I read a post on another BBS pointing out that in George Lucas's original outline for the third Star Wars film, Luke met his sister, and it was a new character instead of Leia. Clearly, between the outline and the script, Lucas changed his mind. That's how the creative process works. It's not all carved in stone before the writers even begin work. They revise and rethink a lot of it as they go. So even if they put out books or comics in 2009 or 2010 that represented their plans for the film universe at that time, there'd be no guarantee that they wouldn't change their minds a year later as the film development process led them in a very different direction.

So what you're asking for is impossible. Anything that anyone put in a book today, whether the idea came from novelists or the filmmakers themselves, would still be subject to contradiction in the next film. The only way you could ever get a definitive, inviolable set of books filling in the continuity gaps is if they came along after the series had finished once and for all. What you're seeking would only be viable if there were never any more Star Trek on film, if the screen franchise died completely and there were nothing left but books.


Once again I use the "Countdown" comic as a example. I felt that was a perfect example of how to aproach these books. Something that is canon(well it might not be but most of us thought it was) that more or line matches up to what we see in the movies but also doesn't hold back the movies.

Except that Orci himself has said that Countdown is not canon, and there's absolutely nothing preventing the filmmakers from contradicting it in their next project.
 
Explore things that won't be touched in the movies or they can't explore at great depth. Make them part of canon to give them more meaning, because I think they would be more important than some Trek books since we know so little about the Abramsverse. Once again I use the "Countdown" comic as a example. I felt that was a perfect example of how to aproach these books.

Why would Robert Orci & Alex Kurtzman toss ideas to novel writers when they might end up needing them, in a different form, for the next two movies? "Countdown" happened because O&K are TNG fans and they wanted other TNG fans to have a way into the new movie. But that's not to say that numerous existing ST novel and comic writers couldn't have done a similar job.

You assume that Pocket's writers are incapable of extrapolating new adventures that fit with the latest movie? Why must the tie-ins be the ideas of two people who may or may not be writing the next film?
 
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