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Should the truth about Zife be revealed?

And I still don't like the thought of the truth about Zife getting out. I don't want the Klingons to be enemies of the Federation again. (so that's what "losing the peace" means, eh? :( )

I do need to emphasize that I was whistling innocently, with not a trace of guilt...

Oh, hell, forget it. The whistling bit was just me being a wiseass sumbitch. As I think has been said before, since Keith handled the international post-DES-fallout thing in ASD, Losing the Peace is more focused on the domestic front. So, turn that frown upside-down, Baba.
 
I never thought it should have been hidden in the first place, so I'm all for full disclosure. You're right, though, that the revelation that Section 31 had killed even a disgraced Federation President would create the demand for action and accoutability within the Federation, requiring a confrontation with the group.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

I agree...full exposure, full-on confrontation with 31. Yes, I know it'll make the Federation look bad, but they'll look even worse if an outside power happens to be the one to expose it rather than exposing it for themselves and bringing the guilty parties to justice.

That was actually the thing that pissed me off about offing Zife (plus the fact that it looked like a bad Bush-assassination fantasy): the fact that there was never any REAL reckoning or chance for any real public outrage. Had those two factors been there, I could've accepted it a lot more easily.
 
Any organization powerful enough to put the whack on the (former) president and some of his top people and still have the whole event covered up all JFK-like, hush-hush, is not going to be dragged out screaming into the light by the new president, no matter how tough Nan Bacco may be. She's not stupid enough to think she can bring to heel a shadowy black-ops outfit that (1) has existed nigh unto two centuries without (major unexplainable) embarrasing incident, (2) she knows has tendrils everywhere but she doesn't know how far and wide the grasp of S31 is, and (3) still has the "best interests" of the Federation at heart, irregardless of methodology...not to put too fine a point on it, but the removal of Min Zife, et al, from the galactic stage falls under the classification of public service, in much the same way that the sudden, permanent dissapearance of a planeload of top AIG executives may. The needs of the many, and all of that.

I can see someone like an intrepid reporter unraveling enough of the story to ask the Bacco Administration some tough questions, but unless they were previously aware of the existence (and encompassing reach) of Section 31, the inquisitioner may be "dissapeared", and 31 is, as a whole, smart enough to fully vet any investigator to make sure there are no hidden instructions set to be followed in the event of said investigator's sudden vanishing.

In addition, as knowledge of an event implies shared responsibility for its aftermath, now that Bacco is aware of what happened to Zife, the longer she keeps it under wraps the more she becomes complicit in the whole thing, and the harder it will be to explain to Martok (or his successor) when it becomes necessary to.

And while the Klingons intellect will be aware that with Zife and his co-conspirators dead (well, assuming they just take her word for it in the first place...) that won't necessarily mean their thirst for vengeance for all of those killed at Tezwa will be slaked. Someone will have to be held responsible.
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I never understood why there is so much fuss about S31. Almost every government, whether minor or major, has an ultra secret organization to run clandestine operations. In the ST universe, it would be plain dumb for the Federation not to have one, especially since other major powers have such organizations. Sometimes you just have to roll up your sleeves and play dirty in order to survive.
 
And I still don't like the thought of the truth about Zife getting out. I don't want the Klingons to be enemies of the Federation again. (so that's what "losing the peace" means, eh? :( )

I do need to emphasize that I was whistling innocently, with not a trace of guilt...

Oh, hell, forget it. The whistling bit was just me being a wiseass sumbitch. As I think has been said before, since Keith handled the international post-DES-fallout thing in ASD, Losing the Peace is more focused on the domestic front. So, turn that frown upside-down, Baba.



Sweet!!!
 
I never understood why there is so much fuss about S31. Almost every government, whether minor or major, has an ultra secret organization to run clandestine operations. In the ST universe, it would be plain dumb for the Federation not to have one, especially since other major powers have such organizations. Sometimes you just have to roll up your sleeves and play dirty in order to survive.

I think the main problem is that it is not answerable to anyone.
 
Yes. And now is the right time. The Klingon Empire is pretty trashed after Destiny, like pretty much everyone else. The threat of them waging war on the Federation is very slim with the Typhon Pact at their door, compared to a few years ago.
 
Also Zife wasn't head of state, he was a former head of state, having resigned minutes before...might just seem semantics but I think it's a crucial difference, technically all S31 did was murder 3 private citizens...

How about the fact the Federation's own military forced its CinC to resign?

Both good points, the second one especially. S31 is expected to do devious things, but better is expected of Starfleet. Bacco in Articles actually states part of her wonders what Starfleet/Ad. Ross will do if she does something 'to piss him off'. (pg 346)

I like the title 'Private Citizen Zife', it sounds like a classy, yet exotic detective novel.

*whistles innocently*

Pre-order meet Amazon, Amazon meet pre-order!

She's not stupid enough to think she can bring to heel a shadowy black-ops outfit that (1) has existed nigh unto two centuries without (major unexplainable) embarrasing incident, (2) she knows has tendrils everywhere but she doesn't know how far and wide the grasp of S31 is, and (3) still has the "best interests" of the Federation at heart, irregardless of methodology.
There no indication that she even knows it exists at all. Admiral Ross in Articles seems to think if she did she probably wouldn't still be around, he does resign after all largely to protect her.

In addition, as knowledge of an event implies shared responsibility for its aftermath, now that Bacco is aware of what happened to Zife, the longer she keeps it under wraps the more she becomes complicit in the whole thing, and the harder it will be to explain to Martok (or his successor) when it becomes necessary to.
I don't think the Klingons will be a problem. They'll be too smart to go to war over Tewza especially with their Capital city in ruins and the Typhon pact running around. As for Zife, it would make sense to them. Klingon crews do kill useless Captains after all. Hell, Worf killed Gowron in front of an audience.

It is the people of the Federation who would have a problem with all this.

Their government armed an independant nation illegally.
Lied to their allies about it.
Lied to their citizens about it.
The military then commited a covert coup.
The former government was then murdered by an organisation created by the military charter.
The current government knew about this and covered it up.

This would be outrage at good time, when things are going as badly as depicted in the books and people are as much pain as shown, they tend to also get angry and look for a scapegoat to project that anger onto. Ms Bacco or Starfleet would make an excellent ones were their involvement proven.
 
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I never understood why there is so much fuss about S31. Almost every government, whether minor or major, has an ultra secret organization to run clandestine operations. In the ST universe, it would be plain dumb for the Federation not to have one, especially since other major powers have such organizations.

But that's a complete misrepresentation of what Section 31 is. It's not a black-ops organization working for -- and therefore answerable to -- the government. It's a bunch of rogue Starfleet personnel who have used their own interpretation of an ambiguously worded passage in the Starfleet charter (and not even the Federation Starfleet, the Earth one that preceded it) to justify setting up a private cabal that blithely violates laws, treaties, sentient rights, and moral codes based on its own independent evaluation of "the good of the Federation." They don't answer to the government -- as their assassination of the ex-president should make crystal clear. They have no legitimate state power, no authority of any kind, no accountability. They're not an intelligence agency, they're a conspiracy.
 
For the most part I agree with Christopher about Section 31. But I don`t think it is that black and white.

From what I could see, his definition of Section 31 doesn`t fit the Section 31 in Enterprise. Trip is not part of a bunch of rogue Starfleet personnel, someone who is on a level of, for example, Sloan. And even in more modern day Star Trek I wouldn`t classify each and every one working for Section 31 as a villain or a terrorist.

Section 31 is in the more modern day Star Trek a rogue, illegal organization but when you compare Section 31 with parts of Starfleet Intelligence (I mean especially Nechayev and her “office”), the differences can get blurred. I would like to believe that SI would never go as far as Section 31 goes but nevertheless, they do some dirty and unpleasant work behind the scenes not intended to become public knowledge.

And it is obvious, too, that although there is a lot of condemnation for Section 31, there are high ranking members in Starfleet who support them and sometimes use their services when it is convenient for them. It has been a long time since I read “A Time to….” but I think that was definitely the case at that time.

If Section 31 would indeed be a terror organization and Starfleet/the Federation blameless, going public would not be such a big problem. But what happened also damaged the honour of Starfleet, their honesty and reputation. Klingons don`t react well to that. Maybe there would not be an outbreak of a war but a cold war with occasional attacks is definitely a strong possibility.

Now after the Borg attack and the foundation of the Typhon pact, this revelation would even be more dangerous to Starfleet.
 
For the most part I agree with Christopher about Section 31. But I don`t think it is that black and white.

From what I could see, his definition of Section 31 doesn`t fit the Section 31 in Enterprise. Trip is not part of a bunch of rogue Starfleet personnel, someone who is on a level of, for example, Sloan.

Two hundred years before the S31 we're talking about. A secretive organization answerable to no one may start out with benevolent intentions, but two centuries without accountability would inevitably turn any organization corrupt. And two centuries spent striving to preserve S31's own secrecy would've inevitably made that become its highest priority, with "Federation security" having become merely a code phrase for "serving Section 31's own interests." Whatever it started out being, it's nothing more than organized crime by the 24th century.

And even in more modern day Star Trek I wouldn`t classify each and every one working for Section 31 as a villain or a terrorist.

Not each and every person working for the Mafia is equally bad as the dons and enforcers, but that doesn't change the fact that the Mafia is a criminal organization.


Section 31 is in the more modern day Star Trek a rogue, illegal organization but when you compare Section 31 with parts of Starfleet Intelligence (I mean especially Nechayev and her “office”), the differences can get blurred. I would like to believe that SI would never go as far as Section 31 goes but nevertheless, they do some dirty and unpleasant work behind the scenes not intended to become public knowledge.

Once more, the absolutely critical difference is that, no matter how "dirty or unpleasant" Starfleet Intelligence's work may sometimes become, SI is answerable. They work for the government which is elected by the people. That means that a mechanism exists to STOP THEM if they go too far. There is no such mechanism restraining Section 31. And as the eight years of the Bush administration have demonstrated on both a political and economic level, when any body in power is able to operate without oversight, without regulation, without checks on its power, then it will become corrupt, self-serving, and dangerous.


And it is obvious, too, that although there is a lot of condemnation for Section 31, there are high ranking members in Starfleet who support them and sometimes use their services when it is convenient for them.

There were high-ranking members of the US government who supported the use of torture. That doesn't make it any less evil, any less useless as a means of interrogation, or any less a violation of international law. The fact that high-ranking members of Starfleet sanction S31 merely demonstrates that there's a corruption within Starfleet that needs to be expunged.

And I doubt that S31 would've found so much support in Starfleet if it hadn't been for the desperation of the Dominion War. As we saw repeatedly in DS9 and in INS, the war eroded Starfleet's morals, made its officers willing to sanction things they never would've supported normally, things like military coups and forced relocations and other such clearly immoral acts.

If Section 31 would indeed be a terror organization and Starfleet/the Federation blameless, going public would not be such a big problem.

"Terror organization?" Where did that come from? First off, I'm sick of the way the Bushies shortened "terrorism" to "terror," which is simply grammatically inept; terror is an emotion, not a policy. The term is "terrorist organization." A terrorist is someone who attempts to induce terror in a target population as a political or military tactic, as a way of drawing attention to one's cause or making one's enemies too afraid or disheartened to carry on a fight.

And that means, more to the point, that Section 31 can hardly be called a terrorist organization. They aren't trying to induce terror. On the contrary, they're trying to achieve their ends in a way that draws as little attention as possible, exactly the opposite of what terrorists do. It would be more accurate to refer to Section 31 as a criminal conspiracy.


But what happened also damaged the honour of Starfleet, their honesty and reputation. Klingons don`t react well to that. Maybe there would not be an outbreak of a war but a cold war with occasional attacks is definitely a strong possibility.

Now after the Borg attack and the foundation of the Typhon pact, this revelation would even be more dangerous to Starfleet.

Which is exactly why it was a mistake to keep the secret. What Zife, Azernal, and Quafina did at Tezwa wasn't Starfleet's fault, because those men were civilians, officials in the Federation government. If they'd been overtly ousted and punished through the efforts of Starfleet officers, then the Klingons would have no cause for holding Starfleet complicit, since it would've been clear that Starfleet had been victimized too and had acted properly to regain and avenge its honor by defeating those cowardly civilians who had besmirched it.

But by helping cover up the events at Tezwa, Starfleet has just guaranteed that the Klingons will have a negative reaction when the truth inevitably does come out. That's my point: that the coverup makes things worse than honesty would've been, so the rationale behind the coverup is dead wrong. The argument that the coverup is necessary for Federation security is predicated on the premise that the truth can be concealed forever, and that's complete nonsense. In any open society with a free press, it's impossible to keep a secret of that magnitude indefinitely.
 
I don't mean the *loss* of the Ent-C, I meant its disappearance into the future. Obviously that was what caused the war, because we all saw it. As soon as the ship came through the anomaly, the timeline changed. Therefore it must have been the Ent-C's vanishing from the timeline that made the Klingons declare war.

Uh, no. It seems instantaneous from our perspective--twenty-two years later--but there's no telling when the war with the Klingons actually began in that other timeline, or why. What we do know is that their history had indicated the ship was presumed destroyed, and they didn't know that sending the ship back would actually affect the timeline, because their history didn't record what happened at Narendra III as a turning point. It was speculation based on Guinan's intuition, not historical certainty. What Garrett and the -C did in dying at Narendra III was provide an opportunity for detente and rapprochement.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
An important thing to remember is that the only people who know S31 did it are s31 and Ross. Bacco, et al thought it was Ross and he didn't correct them...
 
Something that should be noted: The scene in which Ross resigned was entirely in Ross's POV. We don't actually know how much President Bacco actually knows regarding S31.

:evil:
 
Ah but Bacco does ask him "why didyou kill them" rather than "why did you let them kill them" which i took to mean she didn't realise S31 is involved here...
 
Ah but Bacco does ask him "why didyou kill them" rather than "why did you let them kill them" which i took to mean she didn't realise S31 is involved here...

Or she just didn't want him to know how much she knows. :evil:
 
Fair point, Ross did seem to think if anyone could take them on and win it would be her...
 
I don't mean the *loss* of the Ent-C, I meant its disappearance into the future. Obviously that was what caused the war, because we all saw it. As soon as the ship came through the anomaly, the timeline changed. Therefore it must have been the Ent-C's vanishing from the timeline that made the Klingons declare war.

Uh, no. It seems instantaneous from our perspective--twenty-two years later--but there's no telling when the war with the Klingons actually began in that other timeline, or why. What we do know is that their history had indicated the ship was presumed destroyed, and they didn't know that sending the ship back would actually affect the timeline, because their history didn't record what happened at Narendra III as a turning point. It was speculation based on Guinan's intuition, not historical certainty. What Garrett and the -C did in dying at Narendra III was provide an opportunity for detente and rapprochement.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Actually Picard does mention that the war had been going on for 20 years.
 
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