Should the Irish be decanonized?
- Thread starter Trekker4747
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Can't believe an Irishman like me missed this thread. See, I was drunk and...
It's amazing how people can recognize the racist stereo-types from these Irish eps but somehow miss this when it comes to other people. Walk in anothers shoes eh?
But Hollywoodland, they are LOST without stereo-types, 2-D characterizations, and generalizations. UTLL was written to be exactly what it was, "the Irish episode". The cloning plot was the side line, plot-B if you will. And Fairhaven, jeeez, same thing but nicer (<Dr. Evil voice>: yeeeea.). It's sad, Hollywoodland just can't seem to manage mature thinking, and this from a so called "progressive" and even "too politically correct" a show. Boggles the mind eh?
It's amazing how people can recognize the racist stereo-types from these Irish eps but somehow miss this when it comes to other people. Walk in anothers shoes eh?
But Hollywoodland, they are LOST without stereo-types, 2-D characterizations, and generalizations. UTLL was written to be exactly what it was, "the Irish episode". The cloning plot was the side line, plot-B if you will. And Fairhaven, jeeez, same thing but nicer (<Dr. Evil voice>: yeeeea.). It's sad, Hollywoodland just can't seem to manage mature thinking, and this from a so called "progressive" and even "too politically correct" a show. Boggles the mind eh?
no, because then Scotty and Reed would have French accents and so would Picard and his family. plus, the Special Boat Service could kick the entire French military's asses on their own, never mind the rest of the British Army and the Royal Marines.
cheeky Oirish fecker
cheeky Oirish fecker
Sigh.
I hate Fair Haven - and the worst part was when Janeway said that the only thing wrong with the holoprogram was that the harp was faced the wrong way.
The only thing?
Gimme a break.
And that cursed Next Gen episode - oh, it was so degrading to sit through...
But to be honest, Ireland has a serious problem when it comes to doing more than showing what our heritage isn't.
The amount of knowledge of Irish mythology and archaeology in the public sphere is pathetic, as is the way said heritage is portrayed to both Irish and foreign people - imagine going to a gift shop in Egypt and finding no statues of the old Pharaonic gods, no replicas of the pyramids and no books about the Valley of the Kings - or about the achievements seen in Islamic Cairo during the middle ages.
You can find more figures in stores in Japan of a character based on Cú Chulainn than you can in Dublin - and more Japanese who know about Diarmuid ua Duibhne from a set of light novels than most people in Ireland do from any source at all!
It's scandalous.
I hate Fair Haven - and the worst part was when Janeway said that the only thing wrong with the holoprogram was that the harp was faced the wrong way.
The only thing?
Gimme a break.
And that cursed Next Gen episode - oh, it was so degrading to sit through...
But to be honest, Ireland has a serious problem when it comes to doing more than showing what our heritage isn't.
The amount of knowledge of Irish mythology and archaeology in the public sphere is pathetic, as is the way said heritage is portrayed to both Irish and foreign people - imagine going to a gift shop in Egypt and finding no statues of the old Pharaonic gods, no replicas of the pyramids and no books about the Valley of the Kings - or about the achievements seen in Islamic Cairo during the middle ages.
You can find more figures in stores in Japan of a character based on Cú Chulainn than you can in Dublin - and more Japanese who know about Diarmuid ua Duibhne from a set of light novels than most people in Ireland do from any source at all!
It's scandalous.
People are less uninformed than you might believe. Hell, we all get the key points of Irish mythology during school. I remember my first school history book. About half of it was about how Setanta got his name. Which, incidentally, we spell Cúchulainn.
Course, fact is, most of us don't care all that much. Just like with the Irish language. Ever honestly read the Tain Bo Cuigne? To put it bluntly, it's no Iliad.
And naturally, I resent the implication that we must be experts in our heritage.
We're real people, not tour guides, it's not our business to be experts in our past should we not desire it.
Fair Haven and "Up The Long Ladder" were just awful. All the "Oirsh" stereotypes.
Then again, Colm Meaney was always dignified and respectable, so that's a plus.
Then again, Colm Meaney was always dignified and respectable, so that's a plus.
In case you missed it, I'm Irish, too - I'm only living here in Canada for the time being, though I may reside here full-time eventually - so I remember what crap they taught us in school about Irish literature (though they didn't point out how many of the stories had been 'modified' by having the heroes show up on St. Patrick's doorstep for a not-too-late baptism. It's like having Odysseus show up at the walls of Constantinople and be baptised by the resident Patriarch) and I have my own experience of how poorly my countrymen know or care about Irish mythology.
And I'm quite content spelling Sétanta's grown-up name as Cú Chulainn, thanks - though it's a rather bitter irony that he is used by Loyalist paramilitaries on a mural in which he's praised as a champion of Ulster fighting off Irish from the south. (I have family in Belfast, and when we go to the Odyssey Arena to see the Belfast Giants hockey team play, we pass through some areas where... well... it's not a good idea to stop and ask directions if you have a Southern accent.)
But you missed my point - while I don't expect everyone to be tour guides, as you put it, I'd like there to be at least some sort of effort in promoting our mythological and archaeological heritage.
Go into a gift shop in Dublin and find a replica of Brú na mBóinne, or statues of Fionn, Cú Chulainn and the like, or books/CDs/DVDs featuring details of the island's history and culture.
You can't?
Not even a good selection of this in the Visitor's Centre?
Oh dear.
Oh, of course, there are some books in the likes of Easons and other bookstores - but compared to how other countries with notable history and heritage promote themselves, Ireland does a very poor job indeed.
And the point still stands that it's still more common to see statues or figures of Cú Chulainn (or Diarmuid ua Duibhne) as Lancer and, um, Lancer-from-the-prior-Grail-War-to-the-other-Lancer in Japan than it is to find any such wares in Ireland itself, whether they relate to the mythological figure directly or not!
Can't imagine the heroes who were shown in Fate who come from other countries (like Heracles, for example) being given such shoddy treatment in their homelands. Hell, the Greeks don't shut up about their heroes...
It's only one example out of many, true, but I wonder how many people don't care about Irish mythology - or the language, for that matter - because of the often-poor manner in which it is presented to us when we grow up, rather than the intrinsic worth of the subject matter itself?
Of course, if a better job was done introducing Irish and non-Irish people, young and not-so-young, to the material, and it was still not-so-popular, fair enough - but I can't help but feel that there are all too many opportunities wasted...
And I'm quite content spelling Sétanta's grown-up name as Cú Chulainn, thanks - though it's a rather bitter irony that he is used by Loyalist paramilitaries on a mural in which he's praised as a champion of Ulster fighting off Irish from the south. (I have family in Belfast, and when we go to the Odyssey Arena to see the Belfast Giants hockey team play, we pass through some areas where... well... it's not a good idea to stop and ask directions if you have a Southern accent.)
But you missed my point - while I don't expect everyone to be tour guides, as you put it, I'd like there to be at least some sort of effort in promoting our mythological and archaeological heritage.
Go into a gift shop in Dublin and find a replica of Brú na mBóinne, or statues of Fionn, Cú Chulainn and the like, or books/CDs/DVDs featuring details of the island's history and culture.
You can't?
Not even a good selection of this in the Visitor's Centre?
Oh dear.
Oh, of course, there are some books in the likes of Easons and other bookstores - but compared to how other countries with notable history and heritage promote themselves, Ireland does a very poor job indeed.
And the point still stands that it's still more common to see statues or figures of Cú Chulainn (or Diarmuid ua Duibhne) as Lancer and, um, Lancer-from-the-prior-Grail-War-to-the-other-Lancer in Japan than it is to find any such wares in Ireland itself, whether they relate to the mythological figure directly or not!
Can't imagine the heroes who were shown in Fate who come from other countries (like Heracles, for example) being given such shoddy treatment in their homelands. Hell, the Greeks don't shut up about their heroes...
It's only one example out of many, true, but I wonder how many people don't care about Irish mythology - or the language, for that matter - because of the often-poor manner in which it is presented to us when we grow up, rather than the intrinsic worth of the subject matter itself?
Of course, if a better job was done introducing Irish and non-Irish people, young and not-so-young, to the material, and it was still not-so-popular, fair enough - but I can't help but feel that there are all too many opportunities wasted...
These 'modified' versions are the only ones that survive. One can hypothesise about the original pagan texts - the belief that Medb may have been a god - but these remain hypotheses. It's like the ending of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala, where the heroic gods of the saga are banished by the Christ King. I don't really see a problem in presenting the unvarnished version.
Indeed, it an unvarnished and uncensored version - the Tain Bo Cuigne - that I was required to familiarize myself in Classical Studies in secondary school. The contrast between the elegance of the Odyssey the Aeneid and the Iliad, not to mention the Kalevala, Volsung Saga and the Poetic Edda, the Shahmana and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, was obvious.
It was puerile and stupid, with none of the grace of any other mythic epics. Not that sexuality cannot be done well in classic literature, I cite the Metamorphoses and the Satyricon, among others. I was bored out of my mind. If so went me, then merely imagine the reaction of those for whom classical epics mean not a jot.
And yes, that's just my opinion. People who want to go on praising it as a classic are quite entitled to do so, as well as those who consider the myth of foundational importance.
When's the last time you've been in Belfast? I had family there once. They moved out decades ago for reasons that should be obvious. I visited the place for the first time since forever this year. I encountered no hostility at all.
I'd hope not. That's the same kind of thinking that put the Irish langauge as mandatory in schools. As a dyslexic, I have enormous trouble with languages (I'm only this good at English by virtue sheer stubbornness and a couple of remedial classes), and the requirement to learn Irish was a strain. The Government's already shelling out enough cash to the GAA while the NSO continues to rest in a merely adequate accomodation and there's not single proper opera house.
The recent premiere of Gerald Barry's opera The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant could not be held in a Dublin venue fit to hold an opera. It wasn't really fit to be called an opera either, but that, alack, is besides the point: I believe there are far more pressing cultural needs.
It's our choice. And by 'our', I am not including you.
You demand a country you do not live in have more interest in its past. Well, I make no such extravagant claims. But I live here. I've lived in Dublin almost my entire life. Any policy about historical/mythological promotion would effect me more than you and my tax money far more than yours. And, like many of my fellow countrymen, Irish mythology does not particularly interest us. Those that are, I am sure, can find themselves the relevant texts.Now, apologies for sounding harsh. But this isn't the first time I've had an argument like this, and it tires my patience after a while.
It's not the only story of note in the range of Irish mythology - and yes, it's true that in most cases, only the Christianised version of the story sttill exists.
The problem is that the whole issue of the Christianization of these tales is not addressed - it's left as a fact of life. Of course Caoilte hangs out with the saint after wandering around for a few hundred years. Of course the Children of Lir are set free.
Of course the implication that the Patrician myth trumps the pre-Christian one (which given the heavy Catholic bias in the State's society up to all-too-recent times) is left unchallenged.
I go up to visit my grandparents pretty often, when I'm in Ireland.
(I've only lived in Canada this year, and for a year in Vancouver back in 03-04.)
And trust me, while the city centre is fine (as is the area where my grandparents live, not to mention the site of the Odyssey itself) the run-down working class areas which we pass on the way over are 'guests' to the UDA (or is it UVF? Can't recall) with Loyalist murals everywhere and a much less friendly atmosphere to southerners.
Yes, there are plenty of places in NI that are no bother at all - but it's by no means universal. Hell, I would not recommend certain parts of Dublin for people to stroll around, no matter what origin they possess...
...and it's no surprise that 'run-down working-class area' and 'home to Loyalist gangs' are terms that you may find in the same statement.
I happen to like the NCH - though I would like it better if there could be equivalents of either the Odyssey Arena or the Waterfront Hall in Dublin.
A lot better.
And the issues you decry are those which I take issue with, as well!
I want to see a more positive promotion of things like the language, the mythology, the archaeology, and so on - I know all too well how off-putting it is to deal with the ham-fisted manner in which Gaeilge is taught in school, and I myself only realised its interest to me after I graduated and escaped the petrie dish of school life, when I found myself surrounded by cultures which had all sorts of languages and cultures to call their own (and in places like Catalonia and Québec, can keep them alive far better than we have in Ireland) and mourn the fact that it was too late for my own, too late to realise the positive parts of the island's heritage that they either miss completely, or teach poorly, in school.
Maybe it could have gone up to the Waterfront - it's a fine venue, and only two hours from Connolly, to boot.
I'm not denying the need/wish to promote a range of ither cultural issues - hell, I'd love it if the likes of the CBL was more well-known, too.
But just as there should be an effort to promote the rest of the world, and the rest of the universe, too, there could be a better job done in showing the heritage we have under our own two feet.
Which brings me to your final point:
It's our choice. And by 'our', I am not including you.
Now, apologies for sounding harsh. But this isn't the first time I've had an argument like this, and it tires my patience after a while.
Well done for doing a few things at once, here.
Number one, you assume that I'm a long-standing expat, and that therefore I don't matter to those of you still in Ireland.
I'll have to remember that when I move back to Ireland in two weeks.
Number two, you assume that since I have spent time living abroad, and may well do again in the future, that I no longer count as a real Irishman, and no longer matter.
Congratulations - while I do have the choice to move elsewhere, you've managed to have a go at those of us of this generation who are not so narrow-minded as to consider Irishness as something which requires one to reside on the island - and insulted the millions in the diaspora who, in previous generations, had no choice but to leave Ireland behind.
I suppose you don't care much either for those Irish citizens who, as European Union citizens, take up their right to reside in other EU Member States - though does that mean you consider a French or German or British citizen residing in Ireland to be that much less of the Frenchman, German or Brit?
In any case, you're a true hero to the State.
Number three, you assume that those of us who do leave, for whatever reason, suddenly stop giving a crap about what goes on in the island - and that is not the case.
Hell, I think that the State has ideas and experiences worth exporting to other countries, not least the PR-STV system - for which I am far more grateful than were we saddled with the kind of FPTP nonsense that Ottawa, Westminster and other systems have to put up with.
And I'd really like to see more effort in promoting series like Seven Ages and In Search of Ancient Ireland in countries with large diaspora populations, too - so that they can see that their own heritage is about more than Guinness and leprechauns.
But since you've already pulled up the drawbridge, it clearly doesn't matter to you.
Cheers.
Hm. It certainly was addressed when I approached these texts. Perhaps things have changed in the interim.
Not only is it a very interesting one... it's better written. Confessions is a better read than the Tain. Yes, it has religious implications, but so too did the pagan myths.
Yes. I drove through there. Quickly. Nice artwork, but it couldn't be more virulent if it tried.
Agreed. Actually, that's becoming more and more of a problem. There was a murder in Stillorgan last year. Stillorgan! Never thought I'd see the day.
I think it comes as point of contrast. People were far more interested in Irish culture in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when Ireland was part of the British empire. Quebec is in a similar position, so is Catalonia. Give them eighty years of independence and maybe they'll get blase.
I will say this: I would have much preferred a Gaelic Studies course to doing Irish. At least when it comes to interpreting culture and history it's something I'm reasonably good at, which most definitely is not the case for foreign languages. (I passed German by writing a fine analysis of Wagner's principal operas - in English - and then translating it word-for-word using the dictionary and just crossed my fingers and hoped it sounded coherent and intelligent enough. Some project!)
I picked up most of my appreciation for Irish heritage, like classical literature, extracirrcularly. I worked through a lot of the classics of Irish Gothic, as well as great playwrights like Wilde (still a personal favourite) and Shaw. In fact, I think the treatment here can be problematic. I saw an absolutely brilliant production of The Importance of Being Earnest in the Liberty, but the Abbey Theatre seems to persist with the idea that a man as Lady Bracknell is innately funny. (Hint, guys: It isn't).
And Irish Gothic is rather conspicuously ignored in the canon of Irish authors. Frankly, I think that might have something to do with the Anglo-Irish nature of the literature, but it's still a shame. Bram Stoker's Dracula is probably the most famous work of Irish literature ever written.
Well, I will say this: If culture got a lot of money, and if my musical concerns were addressed, I'm not adverse to promoting Irish cultural history. I'm far more comfortable with the idea than the renovation of Croke Park, which is of course because I'm an insufferable snob (as should be obvious by now).
No. You said you intended to remain living in Ontario. That's what I inferred my statement from. How long you are gone is less pertinent than how long you intend to remain gone.
No, not quite. But if you're living abroad you're not paying domestic taxes. And this does boil down to a financial appropriation issue. It's not a broad cultural condemnation or such a noble or high-minded issue of how I define Irish. I don't define Irish, actually; if someone in the US has a great-great-great-great-grandfather who was from Cork and wants to use that as a basis to wear green and wax poetic on St. Patrick's Day, that's none of my business. But when it comes down to tax, the opinion of the Polish community matters more than the diaspora. Because their money isn't involved. That simple.
You want to come back and live here, fine, that's different. I don't agree with you, but it's still different. But that's not the first interpretation I or anyone else would read into your earlier stated desire to remain in Ontario.
I lived abroad for four years. You can bet I stopped caring.
Maybe it varies from school to school, then.
The schools I was jumped around to and fro were less effective at it.
But it's not that big a deal for the pre-Christian religious undertones to be left there - certainly the Olympic myths were set in the context of a culture where the likes of Zeus were objects of worship, and are seen as such by later scholars (of whatever religious persuasion).
I just take issue with how thoroughly the Irish myths were Christianised, in comparison.
Though I suppose in a poetic sense, once could see the trip as a journey from the sectarian past/present of NI (as shown in the Loyalist enclave) to the inclusive future we would rather aspire to (as symbolised by the Odyssey, and teams like the Giants).
I'd love for there to be more Giants coverage in both NI and the Republic, as it happens - and maybe even a Dublin team in the same league!
Well, sometimes I wonder if the press isn't merely getting more shrill these days - though I'm glad that they are being a bit more careful than in other countries about avoiding the cheap 'it's the immigrants' fault' card.
But then, I'd read the Times anyway...
That I'm not so sure about.
Neither Québec nor Catalonia are in that bad a position at all - indeed, Catalonia's booming, and brimming with confidence, politically and culturally.
Indeed, it's interesting how they manage to really pull off bilingualism (as opposed to a rival monolinguism, as seen in parts of Québec outside of Montréal) - most Catalans can, and do, readily converse in both languages, and immerse in both cultures.
That is the kind of thing I'd love to see in Ireland - confident and thriving bilingualism, where love of one language does not exclude a love of the other.
That's a good point - while not everyone has a knack for languages, at least an option for cultural studies (if handled well) would be very beneficial.
I'd make it about more than just Gaelic studies - from the pre-Celtic-influence peoples who built Newgrange, to the various Norse, Norman and Anglo-Irish influences there have been on the island, even up to the new wave of multiculturalism we see today, there are many such cultures to speak of.
That is also something well worth mentioning - though it seems that it's only in the most recent generation that the State has felt ready to move away from the more narrow view of Ireland that they have stuck to officially since '22. Look how long it took to get any kind of recognition for the Irish who fought in the two World Wars, for example.
Well, think of it as helping promote physical fitness and skills through the Gaelic games?
Ha - maybe they could host a story about the rise of Sétanta in Croker, showing them play hurling the way it was done a couple of thousand years ago!
There'd have to be a warning about how 'no animals were harmed in this production', though!
But even if I live in Ontario, why is it such a big deal? Can I not still comment about how the State (mis)handles its - ours - my - cultural and archaeological heritage?
I haven't renounced my passport or my citizenship, and I have no intention of giving up my Irishness.
It's not just a matter of what tax money is spent - it's how that money is spent.
Also, since the issues I refer to also relate to the kind of wares offered for sale to foreign tourists, or indeed is sold by Irish-owned companies in other cities and states around the world, it has relevance there, too. I don't need to tell you how much money goes into the Treasury from foreign tourist wallets...
It's not just about the tax euro of residents, if you want to boil it down to financial terms.
I can't speak of where my life might take me in the coming years - but being away from Ireland doesn't void my opinions.
I lived abroad for four years. You can bet I stopped caring.
Well, some things I'd still care about - and others I'd quickly forget...
True. Immigration has been a huge boon to this country, though judging from the press you'd never know it. I wouldn't equate the two, as native groups are equally responsible for the rise.
That's not really my point, though. Both are part of another nation, but have a distinct culture that spawned a nationalist movement. You don't take your nationality identity for granted when you don't have a nation. Economic success, however, can mitigate that nation being realised if the success is connected to being within the larger nation's sphere.
I doubt that'd ever happen. I'm not the only person who found learning Irish to be exceptionally difficult. I know many people who like this idea, but in practice it just seems to be rendered in legal ruling after legal ruling, like with the recent inclusion of Irish as an official EU language. That will be great for employment of fluent speakers to translate legal documents that will likely never be read in the Irish (and wouldn't need to anyway), but serves no other purpose.
Some of these could be pursued in seperate courses - anyway, the final, multicultural one. I'm vaguely aware of some work already being done - one minority secondary school subject in my day was Hebrew Studies. I presume a faculty on Polish Studies has or could open. Though on the other hand I doubt there's enough seperate interest to put Celtic and pre-Celtic cultures in different courses.
Not to mention the Irish who fought in the Boer wars, or in the service of the British empire abroad. It is indeed born from a narrow position, not religious, not racial, but ideological: Charles Stewart Parnell, an Anglo-Irish Protestant, is an Irishman because of his politics. Ethnic Gaels who served the British Empire are not.
I'm overweight and shameless about it.
I don't mind the GAA existing, but if it's such a popular sport, why does it need government money? Kids get plenty of excerise from playing non-Gaelic games like rugby and soccer which need less public spending.Aw.
Killing dogs with hurleys could be the next bullfighting...Yes, but it's also that it's tax money. Government spends a lot of that as it is. Barring the few things I'd like to see tax money spent on, I don't want a lot more of that being spent. So it boils down to you strongly complaining because my tax money isn't being spent on something I don't want it spent on. Can you see how that's irksome?
Indeed not. But if they thought it was profitable, they'd probably be doing it. I'm hardly raising the government of Bertie Ahern to the level of infallibility here (I know better than that!), but I do know they have a better grasp of economics than I do. So I guess, take it up with them. Or with the opposition. I'm sure there's somebody who would see the profitability if true.