Should StarShips actively use probes to explore the unknown before entering into a area themselves?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I remembered in SeaQuest DSV that they have W.S.K.R.S probes that leap frog ahead of where the SeaQuest would travel and it would relay alot of telemetry and sensor data back to SeaQuest for them to process before they got there.

This gave them ALOT of insight into that region of the sea and they could make better decisions before they travel into a unknown area or have their probes stand guard for them as needed.

I'm wondering if StarFleet should follow a similar principle where it has many "Probes" stationed on the outter perimeter of it's Short range (highly detailied) sensors and have the various "Probes" leap frog each other to provide advanced knowledge of a situation befre you send in the Main StarShip or any Shuttles/Fighters into a area.

This way you can make better decisions.

Obviously, to Min/Max the probes useful-ness you would want them to remain "Cloaked" at all times and to provide that extra info ahead of time.

What do you think, is there value / merit to having advanced Stealth Probes functioningly in a similar fashion to "W.S.K.R.S"?

Have a probe a few light years outside your short range sensor reach and have the probes own highly detailed short range sensors detect any trouble ahead of time so that the crew has more time to react and process any situtation that may arise.

 

[matthunter]

They often do - Voyager sent out probes. One was captured by the Borg, alerting the crew to the fact that they were entering Borg space.

 

[Timo]

Then again, starships often scan for things of interest across dozens of lightyears. Launching probes would be relatively futile: you'd need to expend dozens to cover all the angles, you'd need to wait longer to reach the equivalent radius of awareness, and your bubble of awareness would be left behind whenever your ship moved. Basically, you would be probing for things you had already left in your wake!

On the winning side, probes would have persistence, and apparently could sense some things the long range scans cannot. But there's no evidence that a probe deployed to a distance of 15 ly would add another 15 ly to scanning range; apparently, the scanners aboard a pribe are modest in range even if not in sensitivity.

I guess much would depend on whether a probe was faster or slower than a starship. Waiting for a probe to get to X before going there oneself would probably be frustrating, and needlessly cautious in most cases.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I guess much would depend on whether a probe was faster or slower than a starship. Waiting for a probe to get to X before going there oneself would probably be frustrating, and needlessly cautious in most cases.

What if your Probes were already out there because you "Pre-Deployed" them to be outside your Short Range Sensors?

The Probes Short Range Sensor Envelope would sit right outside your own vessels Short Range Sensors as well.

And the Probes movements were linked to your relative position so that they travel with you like Satellite Bits from R-Type.

They maintain constant relative position to where you are.

 

[fireproof78]

What would the probes offer that long range sensors could not?

 

[Unicron]

I'd say it would depend on what you wanted to study. Jackill's work has a whole range of probes and beacons designed for various purposes, some of them being hazard buoys and sentry probes and such. I'd tend to think to some degree, using probes would be a handy way to survey things without the risk entailed with a larger ship.

There's also the ability to explore areas that are too hazardous for a ship to easily enter.

 

[matthunter]

The issue with the probes moving with the ship is that the ship is almost certainly faster than the probes. Whilst non-canon, the TNG Tech Manual had it right that a probe almost certainly can't generate its own warp field due to size issues. So they accept "hand-off" fields from the launching ship. Thus, you'd launch them ahead whilst you intend to hang back and wait. OR you launch them off in a direction to do some preliminary stuff whilst you check out another area.

A proper warp probe would be more like "Friendship One" - at least shuttle-sized.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

What would the probes offer that long range sensors could not?

Additional Detailed Sensor Scans from it's own Short Range Sensors that are comparable in power output & resolution to the parent vessels.

The ability to launch it beyond the range of your own vessel's Short Range Sensors, use the probe's Short Range sensors to get detailed high resolution scans that would require your vessel to be up close and personal.

 

[fireproof78]

Additional Detailed Sensor Scans from it's own Short Range Sensors that are comparable in power output & resolution to the parent vessels.

The ability to launch it beyond the range of your own vessel's Short Range Sensors, use the probe's Short Range sensors to get detailed high resolution scans that would require your vessel to be up close and personal.

Then I would agree with @Unicron as it would depend. I think how TNG utilized probes was largely successful in sending them out as needed. If long range sensors need more then send a probe. Keeping them out there seems unnecessary when the likely power output of the home vessel would do more than a dedicated probe package.

 

[Timo]

What if your Probes were already out there because you "Pre-Deployed" them to be outside your Short Range Sensors?

As discussed above, moving along with the ship would be the problem - and not just in terms of speed. The probes would also need considerable endurance for the feat. And it appears that warp drives on starships are fairly massive things. How far could that be scaled down before one lost endurance, speed, or both? Having a starship surrounded by a swarm of starships doesn't appear all that productive!

I mean, even today's or yesterday's naval formations that have an "outer screen" of defenses are actually point defense setups, with the outer rim benefiting from the protection of inner core assets (SAMs or CAP/interceptor aircraft) and being extremely vulnerable and even counterproductive without them. Just filling the universe with peers of the "actual" starship so that everybody covers the asses of everybody else is impossible even on Earth's tiny oceans, and not worth the while in the vastness of space...

Probes at the outer screen are counterproductive in a way also reflected in naval tactics: they increase the signature of your ship. Many a naval formation was doomed by having its screeing destroyers or scouting aircraft spotted in the act. Likewise, a probe may be detected or even captured, as occasionally happened to our VOY heroes. Whether this is a greater or lesser threat to your stealth than the enemy detecting and triangulating your sensor sweeps depends on your tactical smarts. (I would assume it being easier to be paranoid and clever about the properties and utilization of your scanning beams than to proof your probe against hostile third-degree interrogation, but this may not hold true in Trek at all.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

What would the probes offer that long range sensors could not?

A single starship might be on a certain trajectory, and it could launch probes in different directions to find resources, anomalies or whatever else that might be of interest.
Short range scans can technically pick stuff up that long range could only get a gleam of... and if something of interest does cross a probe's sensors, the main vessel would alter course to investigate further.

I'm thinking the probes could also act as mobile sensor enhancers... the parent vessel can easily communicate with the probe and also see what it sees.

 

[fireproof78]

A single starship might be on a certain trajectory, and it could launch probes in different directions to find resources, anomalies or whatever else that might be of interest.
Short range scans can technically pick stuff up that long range could only get a gleam of... and if something of interest does cross a probe's sensors, the main vessel would alter course to investigate further.

I'm thinking the probes could also act as mobile sensor enhancers... the parent vessel can easily communicate with the probe and also see what it sees.

Yes, but I don't see the use of having probes always circulating the ship. Launching them in a direction to receive information from a different direction is a different story than the proposal of having a swarm of probes on the outside of the ship.

 

[Deks]

Yes, but I don't see the use of having probes always circulating the ship. Launching them in a direction to receive information from a different direction is a different story than the proposal of having a swarm of probes on the outside of the ship.

No one ever mentioned having swarms of probes circling the ship. In fact, Trek never does this because its unnecessary.
The Andromeda ascendant used that... but Trek SF ships don't rely on that approach because their sensors are integrated into the hull, omnidirectional and work across dozens of Ly's in realtime (thousands if you include Astrometric Sensors - and who knows how much if they were to combine Astrometric sensors with Hypersubspace technology).

Probes are (as you said) sent out in different directions ahead of the ship (probably while the crew investigate a given area of space that peaked their interest) to accumulate data at extreme sensor ranges (see what lies ahead and give them more warning)... if they pick up something of interest, the parent vessel would likely alter course and investigate as I mentioned.

 

[fireproof78]

No one ever mentioned having swarms of probes circling the ship. In fact, Trek never does this because its unnecessary.
The Andromeda ascendant used that... but Trek SF ships don't rely on that approach because their sensors are integrated into the hull, omnidirectional and work across dozens of Ly's in realtime (thousands if you include Astrometric Sensors - and who knows how much if they were to combine Astrometric sensors with Hypersubspace technology).

Probes are (as you said) sent out in different directions ahead of the ship (probably while the crew investigate a given area of space that peaked their interest) to accumulate data at extreme sensor ranges (see what lies ahead and give them more warning)... if they pick up something of interest, the parent vessel would likely alter course and investigate as I mentioned.

Yes, I was countering the OP's example of Seaquest. Perhaps my memory is failing me but in Seaquest the probes were pretty much swarming around the mother ship at the outer edge of their sensor range and then moving back. It was not an appealing visual and if I misunderstood I apologize.

But, to my mind, sending out probes is only indicated if (big if) something pops on long range sensors that the main ship cannot determine on its own without altering course.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Yes, I was countering the OP's example of Seaquest. Perhaps my memory is failing me but in Seaquest the probes were pretty much swarming around the mother ship at the outer edge of their sensor range and then moving back. It was not an appealing visual and if I misunderstood I apologize.

But, to my mind, sending out probes is only indicated if (big if) something pops on long range sensors that the main ship cannot determine on its own without altering course.

You are correct, that's how it traditionally operates.

 

[fireproof78]

You are correct, that's how it traditionally operates.

Then, I stand by my opinion that the risks outweigh the benefits, including, as Timo noted, creating a bigger sensor profile for the ship to be detected more rapidly, giving away their position, as well as the ship's own sensor package probably being sufficient to determine if a probe is required.

 

[Deks]

Yes, I was countering the OP's example of Seaquest. Perhaps my memory is failing me but in Seaquest the probes were pretty much swarming around the mother ship at the outer edge of their sensor range and then moving back. It was not an appealing visual and if I misunderstood I apologize.

But, to my mind, sending out probes is only indicated if (big if) something pops on long range sensors that the main ship cannot determine on its own without altering course.

We've only seen VOY using probes on two occasions on-screen.
Once when they were approaching Borg space ('Scorpion Part 1') and a second time when they first built the Delta Flyer.

In Scorpion Part 1, the dialogue says:
JANEWAY: We have to act fast. The Borg have captured one of our probes. They know we're out here. We'll do everything in our power to avoid a direct confrontation. but if and when we do engage the Borg, I'm confident that we'll be ready. I have faith in each and every one of you. Let's do it.

The dialogue suggests that Voyager had several probes out there by the beginning of its fourth year in the D.Q.

It could be standard practice in unknown regions of the galaxy... explore as much as possible.. and since probes act as both sensor and communication boosters/extenders for the main ship (in this case, Voyager), it stands to reason they would be used for exploration purposes well away from the ship (extreme sensor ranges). Its a SF ship intended for exploration after all.

The probe in 'Extreme Risk' was Multispatial technology... probably far more advanced than your run of the mill standard probes.
That probe was only 2 hours away from Voyager... so it wasn't THAT far out... it's possible that the probes would be intended for sublight surveying... not necessarily FTL.

Its possible some technologies aren't fully integrated into the main sensor array which would allow for multispatial resolutions and could only be used on smaller craft (such as Tuvok's Borg shields which he made for the probe - they could have been adapted to something like the Delta Flyer, but not Voyager - which might indicate a scaling problem - at least at that time).

 

[fireproof78]

We've only seen VOY using probes on two occasions on-screen.
Once when they were approaching Borg space ('Scorpion Part 1') and a second time when they first built the Delta Flyer.

In Scorpion Part 1, the dialogue says:
JANEWAY: We have to act fast. The Borg have captured one of our probes. They know we're out here. We'll do everything in our power to avoid a direct confrontation. but if and when we do engage the Borg, I'm confident that we'll be ready. I have faith in each and every one of you. Let's do it.

The dialogue suggests that Voyager had several probes out there by the beginning of its fourth year in the D.Q.

It could be standard practice in unknown regions of the galaxy... explore as much as possible.. and since probes act as both sensor and communication boosters/extenders for the main ship (in this case, Voyager), it stands to reason they would be used for exploration purposes well away from the ship (extreme sensor ranges). Its a SF ship intended for exploration after all.

The probe in 'Extreme Risk' was Multispatial technology... probably far more advanced than your run of the mill standard probes.
That probe was only 2 hours away from Voyager... so it wasn't THAT far out... it's possible that the probes would be intended for sublight surveying... not necessarily FTL.

Its possible some technologies aren't fully integrated into the main sensor array which would allow for multispatial resolutions and could only be used on smaller craft (such as Tuvok's Borg shields which he made for the probe - they could have been adapted to something like the Delta Flyer, but not Voyager - which might indicate a scaling problem - at least at that time).

That was all very well written and completely irrelevant to my point. But, you wrote it so well I thank you.

 

[Deks]

That was all very well written and completely irrelevant to my point. But, you wrote it so well I thank you.

Thank you.
You did also mention:
"But, to my mind, sending out probes is only indicated if (big if) something pops on long range sensors that the main ship cannot determine on its own without altering course."

So, I don't think it was irrelevant to your point.
I was merely expanding based on what we saw how VOY used its probes and how certain technologies were used.
In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that a SF ship main sensor array would technically be able to cover what small probe probably couldn't... I agree with that, and with what was mentioned that scanning ranges are basically in dozens of Ly's (30 for VOYm this would certainly be of great value), but at certain ranges, sensor resolution drops and detail is lost/missed... this is where probes can be used. And since sensors can be obstructed by interstellar phenomena or in certain star systems, its possible VOY was using one in the same star system to survey a Gas Giant (in which the crew sent it to protect it against the Malon).

Obviously, we know that writers have a tendency to NOT be consistent with how technology is used and more often than not, they ignore extreme sensor ranges and how powerful technology in Trek is for convenience/drama... but for the most part, I don't see an issue with Trek ships using probes far away from parent ship to get a better picture of what's happening at a distant location where ship sensors aren't necessarily giving you enough or exact data, so you'd send a probe to boost sensor resolution... and if that's no enough, the ship would eventually alter course and investigate if its of high enough significance.

I would expect of some of the probes to have FTL capability though. And even TNG had the ENT-D using a probe a few times to boost sensors if they weren't giving the entire picture.

 

[fireproof78]

Thank you.
You did also mention:
"But, to my mind, sending out probes is only indicated if (big if) something pops on long range sensors that the main ship cannot determine on its own without altering course."

So, I don't think it was irrelevant to your point.
I was merely expanding based on what we saw how VOY used its probes and how certain technologies were used.
In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that a SF ship main sensor array would technically be able to cover what small probe probably couldn't... I agree with that, and with what was mentioned that scanning ranges are basically in dozens of Ly's (30 for VOYm this would certainly be of great value), but at certain ranges, sensor resolution drops and detail is lost/missed... this is where probes can be used. And since sensors can be obstructed by interstellar phenomena or in certain star systems, its possible VOY was using one in the same star system to survey a Gas Giant (in which the crew sent it to protect it against the Malon).

Obviously, we know that writers have a tendency to NOT be consistent with how technology is used and more often than not, they ignore extreme sensor ranges and how powerful technology in Trek is for convenience/drama... but for the most part, I don't see an issue with Trek ships using probes far away from parent ship to get a better picture of what's happening at a distant location where ship sensors aren't necessarily giving you enough or exact data, so you'd send a probe to boost sensor resolution... and if that's no enough, the ship would eventually alter course and investigate if its of high enough significance.

I would expect of some of the probes to have FTL capability though. And even TNG had the ENT-D using a probe a few times to boost sensors if they weren't giving the entire picture.

You do you, gentlebeing. I was apparently imprecise with my language. I'll bow out accordingly.