Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?

[Christopher]

^Absolutely. Saying people had no trouble with the original stardates is ridiculous. As you say, the makers of TOS got so many letters complaining about the stardates being out of order that Roddenberry had to concoct a handwave explanation in The Making of Star Trek (or maybe it was concocted for some other forum and repeated in TMoST) about how stardates are dependent on position and you get different values as you move through space.

And I don't see how replacing a stardate system that was intended from the start to be sheer gibberish with one that contains actual date information constitutes "dumbing down." The original point of stardates was to obscure the time frame of the series, since Roddenberry and Solow were aware that science fiction often tends to be too optimistic or too conservative about how long various advances will take, so that it would be safer to keep the actual timeframe fairly vague. Gradually, though, the series settled more and more on a specific timeframe, with references to 200 years or so accumulating in the series (with some exceptions), TMP and TWOK locking it down as the 23rd century, and finally TNG giving us definitive calendar dates. By now, the chronology of TOS is so well-defined that using a system deliberately designed to contain no chronological information of any kind seems pointless.

True, the movie's stardate system seems odd to those of us accustomed to the old system, but someone who looks at the new and different and sees it as automatically a bad thing has missed the entire philosophical point of Star Trek. It's an efficient way of conveying meaningful date information to the new audience while still acknowledging the forms of the original. Yes, it's a retcon, but replacing gibberish with coherence isn't really a significant retcon, because it's not like anything of any substance was eliminated.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I just want to point out that unless you've got the Star Trek Chronology or are die-hard enough to know what year Kirk was born or write down all the new stardates and do the math, the new stardates pretty much are random four-digit numbers to the audience. I don't pay attention to stardates, and didn't know they were changed to Earth years until I went online and read peoples' complaints after seeing the movie.


I wonder if future TOS novels will adopt this stardate system? If the post-TNG Prime universe Jellyfish uses it, I don't see why not.

Imagine the complaints: "I wanted a random number for a stardate and this book gave me a seemingly random number that actually makes sense if you look closely!"

 

[Christopher]

I just want to point out that unless you've got the Star Trek Chronology or are die-hard enough to know what year Kirk was born or write down all the new stardates and do the math, the new stardates pretty much are random four-digit numbers to the audience.

Unless the audience notices that the intervals between the stardates correspond to the stated intervals in years between the corresponding timeframes -- twenty-five years between "stardate 2233.04" and "stardate 2258.42," a hundred twenty-nine years between that and "stardate 2387." So it is possible to deduce the scheme from nothing more than the information provided in the film. And if one is generally familiar with the notion that Captain Kirk lived in the twenty-third century, one can draw the reasonable conclusion that the four-digit stardates correspond to Gregorian calendar years.

I wonder if future TOS novels will adopt this stardate system? If the post-TNG Prime universe Jellyfish uses it, I don't see why not.

Well, I try not to dwell too much on stardate rationalizations, but one could imagine that in the Prime timeline, the use of Gregorian-based stardates was abandoned sometime after 2233 (which actually makes sense since the system that was used wouldn't go back that far anyway, seeing as how it went from 1512.2 to 5906.4 in only three years), while in the altered timeline it was kept. The Jellyfish's computer may have been programmed to read the local interstellar time-signal broadcasts and adjust its date reporting format accordingly -- not unlike the kind of clocks and watches we have today that automatically set themselves to a broadcast time signal. (Indeed, it seems that the TOS Enterprise had this same function, otherwise how could its chronometers have gone backward in "The Naked Time"?)

Imagine the complaints: "I wanted a random number for a stardate and this book gave me a seemingly random number that actually makes sense if you look closely!"

Well, we're already getting analogous complaints in this thread, so I'm sure you're right.

 

[JarodRussell]

...one can draw the reasonable conclusion that the four-digit stardates correspond to Gregorian calendar years.

And that is the stupid thing about it! It makes no sense at ALL that dozens of alien civilizations would agree on an Earth centric date system. Some planets might have 30 Earth hour days and need 2 1/2 Earth years to rotate around their sun, and most of them definately wouldn't set year 0 to the day some mythical figure was born on Earth. Others might be even a whole step further and measure their time by looking at a Pulsar.

I don't agree with the idea that they speak English, so I also don't I agree with the idea that every civilization uses the Gregorian / Anno Domini system. Because that is what I tend to describe as "dumbing it down". It's a sci fi audience after all.

Same goes for the kissing vs finger stroking. You could expect that people would realize that a Vulcan (even though half human) would prefer finger stroking instead of kissing because that is simply the preference of the Vulcan culture he grew up with. A short moment between Sarek and Amanda doing it at the beginning, and the later having Spock and Uhura doing it in the scene in the turbolift or the transporter platform would have also helped to emphasize that. It really is not too hard to do. They wouldn't have needed hours of exposition, a couple of seconds would have sufficed.

The whole movie suffered from stuff like this (the sawbones/bones explanation is also part of this, another case of smart vs. not so smart). When the creators have no faith in the intelligence of the audience, it's no surprise that movies get worse and worse.

The reason is that they constantly underestimate the target audience. Which is why they "dumbed down" the Stardates, for example, too. I wonder why the audiences in the 60s had no trouble when they were being confronted with new things the first time...
.

actually they did. it was one of the things gene was bugged about over and over.

he only threw out a sort of excplanation after he got so much stuff about it.

even then it bothered some people/

And by some you probably mean about as many people who want more consistency in speeds and distances. The majority of viewers couldn't care less back then I'm sure, and I'm also sure they got the purpose. Not only did the stardate make it unclear when the show took place, it also was - like the warp drive and transporter - a hint at a future system/technology that we don't need to understand. We only need to know that in the future they use stuff that is entirely different from what we know today. Of course, later on, as the fanbase grew, they started to "explain" the technology with more technobabble and further devices, like dilithium crystals and Heisenberg compensators, which is also nice, but also isn't needed to "understand".

Basing stardates on the gregorian calendar gives it a system, yes, but it's dumbing it down. Had they, I dunno, made up a system based on Pulsar frequencies, had they put actually some thought in what system a Federation of various alien cultures might use, I wouldn't consider it dumbing it down. And it's really not so hard to drop the actual Earth date in short a line spoken by one of the characters, or to show the actual time and date on some clock somewhere at the Academy in San Francisco, for example, or even just in a title card. When they wrote "Vulcan" on the screen, they could have also written "Vulcan - 225x" on the screen, while the characters constantly use stardates. No need for "dumbing it down" in-universe.

 

[Stevil2001]

I wonder if future TOS novels will adopt this stardate system? If the post-TNG Prime universe Jellyfish uses it, I don't see why not.

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but A Choice of Catastrophes won't. It didn't even occur to us. Besides, the classic stardates might not be the most rigorous of systems, but if I tell you that the novel opens on Stardate 4754.88, you can pin that down with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't agree with the idea that they speak English, so I also don't I agree with the idea that every civilization uses the Gregorian / Anno Domini system. Because that is what I tend to describe as "dumbing it down". It's a sci fi audience after all.

You don't spend $150 million for a 'sci fi audience', you spend that to make a summer blockbuster with broad appeal.

 

[Christopher]

Besides, the classic stardates might not be the most rigorous of systems, but if I tell you that the novel opens on Stardate 4754.88, you can pin that down with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Hmm, that suggests something toward the end of season 2 or the start of season 3. Or perhaps between the seasons?

And that is the stupid thing about it! It makes no sense at ALL that dozens of alien civilizations would agree on an Earth centric date system. Some planets might have 30 Earth hour days and need 2 1/2 Earth years to rotate around their sun, and most of them definately wouldn't set year 0 to the day some mythical figure was born on Earth. Others might be even a whole step further and measure their time by looking at a Pulsar.

How is that any different from the various characters on TNG, DS9, VGR, etc. repeatedly using the Gregorian calendar and defining a year in terms of Earth's orbital period, even when they were aliens like Tuvok or Neelix? I'll agree with you that it's implausible, but it's a habit that Star Trek has been using consistently for decades, so it doesn't wash as a critique of this specific film.

I don't agree with the idea that they speak English, so I also don't I agree with the idea that every civilization uses the Gregorian / Anno Domini system. Because that is what I tend to describe as "dumbing it down". It's a sci fi audience after all.

Isn't that a contradictory argument? If you're willing to believe that they're speaking some future language and we're hearing it translated into English for our benefit, how hard is it to assume they're using a different dating system and we're hearing it translated as well? Maybe the difference between TOS stardates, TNG stardates, and ST XI stardates is simply one of different "translators" offering different substitutes for whatever dating system they "actually" use in the future.

Same goes for the kissing vs finger stroking. You could expect that people would realize that a Vulcan (even though half human) would prefer finger stroking instead of kissing because that is simply the preference of the Vulcan culture he grew up with. A short moment between Sarek and Amanda doing it before having the scene in the turbolift or the transporter platform would have also helped to emphasize that. It really is not too hard to do.

I'll remind you of the point I've made repeatedly about the relentless pacing demands of the modern motion picture. Have you ever seen the West Wing episode where Bruno makes his analogy about having trouble communicating with anyone who doesn't race sailboats? In a race, you have to keep the hull totally clear of anything that could create any drag, no matter how tiny. Similarly, filmmakers have to cut absolutely everything that doesn't contribute to the story. Everything, no matter how tiny. What might seem to the casual fan like a minor inclusion that wouldn't get in the way would be seen by a feature director or editor as a distraction that they couldn't afford to keep in.

And as I and others have already pointed out, it's missing something crucial about the character dynamic in the scene to assume that the Vulcan form of affection would've been appropriate there. That misses the whole emotional point of what's going on there, that it's Uhura who's taking the initiative, that she's persuading Spock to loosen his Vulcan control and let his human side out just for a moment and take comfort in what she has to offer. I mean, it wasn't a casual display of affection. Spock was in profound grief and needed an opportunity to connect emotionally with someone in a way that Vulcan customs just aren't adequate to. The filmmakers made the right decision from the standpoint of character and emotion, and if you think referencing obscure Trekkie-geek trivia is more important than that, then you just have no clue how to tell a story.

 

[JarodRussell]

I don't agree with the idea that they speak English, so I also don't I agree with the idea that every civilization uses the Gregorian / Anno Domini system. Because that is what I tend to describe as "dumbing it down". It's a sci fi audience after all.

You don't spend $150 million for a 'sci fi audience', you spend that to make a summer blockbuster with broad appeal.

Broad appeal among people who are ready to watch a science fiction movie to begin with.

How many times were the stardates mentioned? Three times? I wonder, would it have made a difference in millions of dollars had they just said random numbers like they did in 40 years of Trek? I guess no. And then again, I already said that a simple title card would have solved the problem for the really dumb viewer.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Besides, the classic stardates might not be the most rigorous of systems, but if I tell you that the novel opens on Stardate 4754.88, you can pin that down with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Hmm, that suggests something toward the end of season 2 or the start of season 3. Or perhaps between the seasons?

Well, the fourth-year "The Magicks of Megas-Tu" took place on Stardate 1254.4

I'm reminded of the story in Voyages of Imagination about Chekov, stardates and the sign on Gene Rodenberry's wall...

 

[JoeZhang]

And then again, I already said that a simple title card

Fuck me, we'd be back to the old men in PJs sitting around a table talking and talking if you had your way. It's gone, it's over. As Frank use to sing "use your mentality, come back to reality".

 

[Christopher]

Well, the fourth-year "The Magicks of Megas-Tu" took place on Stardate 1254.4

Which is why Steve said "a reasonable degree of accuracy," not "absolute precision down to the hour." While TOS stardates leapt all over the place, there was a rough upward trend, and as a general rule, the episodes toward the end of the second season and the start of the third were in the upper 4000s.

 

[JarodRussell]

And then again, I already said that a simple title card

Fuck me, we'd be back to the old men in PJs sitting around a table talking and talking if you had your way. It's gone, it's over. As Frank use to sing "use your mentality, come back to reality".

How do you get from a simple 3 second title card to old mean sitting around talking and talking?

Isn't that a contradictory argument? If you're willing to believe that they're speaking some future language and we're hearing it translated into English for our benefit, how hard is it to assume they're using a different dating system and we're hearing it translated as well? Maybe the difference between TOS stardates, TNG stardates, and ST XI stardates is simply one of different "translators" offering different substitutes for whatever dating system they "actually" use in the future.

And they translated it that way? I don't think what I said is contradictory.

And as I and others have already pointed out, it's missing something crucial about the character dynamic in the scene to assume that the Vulcan form of affection would've been appropriate there. That misses the whole emotional point of what's going on there, that it's Uhura who's taking the initiative, that she's persuading Spock to loosen his Vulcan control and let his human side out just for a moment and take comfort in what she has to offer. I mean, it wasn't a casual display of affection. Spock was in profound grief and needed an opportunity to connect emotionally with someone in a way that Vulcan customs just aren't adequate to. The filmmakers made the right decision from the standpoint of character and emotion, and if you think referencing obscure Trekkie-geek trivia is more important than that, then you just have no clue how to tell a story.

BobOrci: We actually debated that very thing, wondering if the finger ceremony would be better in the elevator, but JJ correctly pointed out that a new audience would have no idea what was going on.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/22/orci-and-kurtzman-reveal-star-trek-details-in-trekmovie-fan-qa/

The character dynamic you interpret into it didn't cross the writer's and director's minds, I suppose.

 

[JoeZhang]

And then again, I already said that a simple title card

Fuck me, we'd be back to the old men in PJs sitting around a table talking and talking if you had your way. It's gone, it's over. As Frank use to sing "use your mentality, come back to reality".

How do you get from a simple 3 second title card to old mean sitting around talking and talking?

It's the stale reactionary nature of your commentary - there is a point where you simply have to say, "it's a film, then went a different way than I would have, I'll have to live with the results as I have absolutely nothing to do with it beyond being a passive viewer".

 

[Christopher]

Joe's right. Bottom line, this is the movie that exists, nothing's going to change that, so where's the gain in arguing incessantly about its tiny little details? Heck, nobody likes every single Trek episode and film ever made, but ultimately we have to deal with the franchise as it stands.

I don't agree with every choice the filmmakers made here, but I can say the same about every one of the previous ten films. And I understand that just because I would've made a choice differently, that doesn't make it a stupid decision. Every creator makes different decisions and that's the way it should be. And at least I understand why a lot of the various choices were made and why they made sense in the context of the filmmaking process.

 

[JarodRussell]

Fuck me, we'd be back to the old men in PJs sitting around a table talking and talking if you had your way. It's gone, it's over. As Frank use to sing "use your mentality, come back to reality".

How do you get from a simple 3 second title card to old mean sitting around talking and talking?

It's the stale reactionary nature of your commentary - there is a point where you simply have to say, "it's a film, then went a different way than I would have, I'll have to live with the results as I have absolutely nothing to do with it beyond being a passive viewer".

You are talking to someone who would have loved to see Sulu dying instead of Olsen on the platform, and to someone who wanted Spock to leave Starfleet because of Vulcan's destruction to shake things up a bit.

And aren't you a bit prejudiced? When was the last time we've seen old men talking and talking and talking and nothing else happening? I can't remember when that happened.

Joe's right. Bottom line, this is the movie that exists, nothing's going to change that, so where's the gain in arguing incessantly about its tiny little details? Heck, nobody likes every single Trek episode and film ever made, but ultimately we have to deal with the franchise as it stands.

Well, a) it's discussion board, and b) it's a discussion board with professional tie-in writers. I enjoy the chitchat and hope you might not repeat the what I feel are bad decisions the creators made while writing this movie. On important point in this whole thing is: please don't underestimate the audience, it's almost insulting.

I'll remind you of the point I've made repeatedly about the relentless pacing demands of the modern motion picture.

Hehe, and I guess JoeZhang is their target audience then. No talking, no exposition, no internal logic, no depth, as long it has fast pace and explosions.

 

[Greg Cox]

I don't think the kiss was "dumbing things down." It worked as is because:

1) That moment was all about the emotion of the scene, not ticking off some nostalgic bit of Trek trivia for the traditionalists in the audience. There were times and places for callbacks to the original series, but maybe not right after the death of Spock's mother. I would have been like throwing in a cute shot of a tribble right after Kirk's dad sacrificed himself . . . .

2) Like the destruction of Vulcan, the kiss was a "Whoa!" moment that really got across the idea that this was a brand new STAR TREK, where the old rules didn't apply anymore. Sure, we'd never seen Uhura kiss Spock before. That was the whole point. An old-fashioned Vulcan finger-touch, like we've seen before, wouldn't have had the same impact. The idea was to catch viewers by surprise . . . .

 

[JarodRussell]

I don't think the kiss was "dumbing things down." It worked as is because:

1) That moment was all about the emotion of the scene, not ticking off some nostalgic bit of Trek trivia for the traditionalists in the audience. There were times and places for callbacks to the original series, but maybe not right after the death of Spock's mother. I would have been like throwing in a cute shot of a tribble right after Kirk's dad sacrificed himself . . . .

2) Like the destruction of Vulcan, the kiss was a "Whoa!" moment that really got across the idea that this was a brand new STAR TREK, where the old rules didn't apply anymore. Sure, we'd never seen Uhura kiss Spock before. That was the whole point. An old-fashioned Vulcan finger-touch, like we've seen before, wouldn't have had the same impact. The idea was to catch viewers by surprise . . . .

I'm happy for you that you see all that in it, but technically:

BobOrci: We actually debated that very thing, wondering if the finger ceremony would be better in the elevator, but JJ correctly pointed out that a new audience would have no idea what was going on.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/22/orci-and-kurtzman-reveal-star-trek-details-in-trekmovie-fan-qa/

 

[Kelso]

^ Abrams was right.

 

[Greg Cox]

I'm happy for you that you see all that in it, but technically:

BobOrci: We actually debated that very thing, wondering if the finger ceremony would be better in the elevator, but JJ correctly pointed out that a new audience would have no idea what was going on.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/22/orci-and-kurtzman-reveal-star-trek-details-in-trekmovie-fan-qa/

Exactly. And a big dramatic/romantic moment was not the time to try to explain it to them. That scene was all about Spock and Uhura, not to trying to introduce some obscure bit of Vulcan culture to a new audience.

The point is, making a movie accessible to a general audience, as opposed to just lifelong Trekkies, is not necessarily "dumbing it down."

Just because an average viewer doesn't know the difference between a Gorn and Horta doesn't mean they're an ignorant philistine. It just means that STAR TREK isn't just for Trekkies . . . which some fans don't seem to get.

 

[JarodRussell]

I'm happy for you that you see all that in it, but technically:

BobOrci: We actually debated that very thing, wondering if the finger ceremony would be better in the elevator, but JJ correctly pointed out that a new audience would have no idea what was going on.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/22/orci-and-kurtzman-reveal-star-trek-details-in-trekmovie-fan-qa/

Exactly. And a big dramatic/romantic moment was not the time to try to explain it to them. That scene was all about Spock and Uhura, not to trying to introduce some obscure bit of Vulcan culture to a new audience.

As I said before, I don't think that it needs explanation. It didn't need explanation in TOS, it didn't need explanation in TSFS. And I already pointed out that a short scene with Sarek and Amanda could have also introduced it, and then when Uhura did it to comfort Spock, the audience would have got the meaning. It really isn't hard. And if you really wanted to have an explanation, the scene with Kirk, Spock and Uhura on the transporter platform would have been perfect for it.