Should I rewatch it?

[Lynx]

We find common ground. I'm not even a Stones fan and I don't like TSMR. They were just cashing in, and who can blame them? But that's for another topic.

I have a tendency to get distracted. Of course we all have our differences of opinion. Bryan Fuller is not everyone's cup of raktajino. He definitively likes to shake things up. For me Fury is a pretty interesting "Side road", or a what-might-have-been in Voyager. In the era of serialization we could have had an entire series arc based on Kes as the antagonist we see in Fury. That would have shaken season 7 up a bit. There would have been more time to explore her motivations, watch her age dramatically from episode to episode, perhaps like the much more recent Saru arc in discovery, come out the other side as something altogether transformed.

I wish she would have killed Neelix. That would have given the episode the gravitas that maybe some feel it lacked, which might explain the negative reviews. It's hard to take her path of destruction with too much concern when you know the ship will be shining and bright next week with perhaps yet a few more less maquis crew that you somehow had never seen before, anyway, so who cares?

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with almost everything of what you are writing.

A whole season of the same crap as in the s**t episode? Are you kidding? Wasn't it enough with what was in the s**t episode?
Why destroy Kes? I see no reason of doing so. Why don't use the character in a positive way instead?
She could have returned in the last episode and saved the ship instead, maybe in a two-part episode with Suspiria as the main villain. That would have been much better and would have wrapped up the series in a better way than the meaningless Endgame.

And why kill off Neelix? Wasn't it enough that they dumped him three episodes from the end?

 

[XCV330]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with almost everything of what you are writing.

A whole season of the same crap as in the s**t episode? Are you kidding? Wasn't it enough with what was in the s**t episode?
Why destroy Kes? I see no reason of doing so. Why don't use the character in a positive way instead?
She could have returned in the last episode and saved the ship instead, maybe in a two-part episode with Suspiria as the main villain. That would have been much better and would have wrapped up the series in a better way than the meaningless Endgame.

And why kill off Neelix? Wasn't it enough that they dumped him three episodes from the end?

Any of these ideas would be better than endgame. But again I think Kes works much better as an antagonist in the later seasons of the series.

Killing Neelix could be symbolic of the unhealthy relationship he had with her, the understanding that he'd groomed her and no one had done anything about it because he seemed like he was going to be useful. The crew of the bridge could stare out the viewscreen as he floated in space, struggling and gasping for a final breath that would not come for a second or two, showing no more emotion than they did for Tuvix when he was dragged away to his murder. And the crew and most of the audience would have a newfound respect for the until-then somewhat lackluster Kes.

But again, just some ideas, speculations for a thing that wouldn't happen. I certainly wouldn't tell anyone NOT to watch that episode if they are going to rewatch Voy again. They might find quite a bit more than they were expecting.

 

[Lynx]

Art is highly subjective. It's not a lie if they don't find it to be as you state. Nor should it be assumed that the writers were seeking character destruction.


Based upon...what, exactly? Did they state that? I'll not disagree with your subjective opinion but unless they said as much such accusations are hard to take seriously.

I think they did it on purpose.

Why all of a sudden bring back a character which they had done everything to make fans and viewers forget just to humiliate and destroy that character?

There was a letter campaign going about having Kes back in the series. I'm pretty sure that the s**t episode in season 6 was their reply to that campaign.

They had two options:
They could have brought Kes back which would have been great.
Or they could have totally ignored all requests for having Kes back.
They did choose option three which was to totally destroy the character and by doing so showing the "finger" to those who wanted her back. Sort of: "You wanted your little favorite back? Well, eat this you scum and don't ever dare to question our decisions again!"

And unfortunately I also have to state that what they did in that episode was character destruction and nothing else.

 

[Lynx]

Any of these ideas would be better than endgame. But again I think Kes works much better as an antagonist in the later seasons of the series.

Killing Neelix could be symbolic of the unhealthy relationship he had with her, the understanding that he'd groomed her and no one had done anything about it because he seemed like he was going to be useful. The crew of the bridge could stare out the viewscreen as he floated in space, struggling and gasping for a final breath that would not come for a second or two, showing no more emotion than they did for Tuvix when he was dragged away to his murder. And the crew and most of the audience would have a newfound respect for the until-then somewhat lackluster Kes.

But again, just some ideas, speculations for a thing that wouldn't happen. I certainly wouldn't tell anyone NOT to watch that episode if they are going to rewatch Voy again. They might find quite a bit more than they were expecting.

Kes was never supposed to be an antagonist. She was supposed to be a likeable character.

It would have been like making, let's say Troi a serial killer or turn Picard into a drunken fool who constantly screw up all missions, insults his crewmembers and finaly is kicked out of Starfleet.

And I don't think that your sadistic description of how Neelix would be murdered is appropriate for a Star Trek episode, more for the type od doom-and-gloom crap "entertainment" which this decade is pestering us with.

Kes a "lackluster character". Not at all. In fact, she's one of the more non-stereotype characters in the Star Trek universe. maybe she should have been on DS9 instead where there were more rome and possibilities for non-stereotype characters.

 

[XCV330]

Kes was never supposed to be an antagonist. She was supposed to be a likeable character.

But since that hadn't really worked out, Fury almost seems like a re-tooling that might have worked.

turn Picard into a drunken fool who constantly screw up all missions, insults his crewmembers and finaly is kicked out of Starfleet.

I take it you haven't watched Picard, yet. Spoilers..

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And I don't think that your sadistic description of how Neelix would be murdered is appropriate for a Star Trek episode, more for the type od doom-and-gloom crap "entertainment" which this decade is pestering us with.

Dying in the vacuum of space is a risk in a series set in space. It's less violent than having chunks of your flesh burned away with a high energy weapon or being sliced and stabbed by Klingon and Romulan hand-to-hand weaponry. Or transporter accidents

Kes a "lackluster character". Not at all. In fact, she's one of the more non-stereotype characters in the Star Trek universe. maybe she should have been on DS9 instead where there were more rome and possibilities for non-stereotype characters.

I agree. She might have done better on DS9.

 

[Oddish]

I agree that Kes was questionably handled... the way her character should have evolved, ironically, came in a single episode: "Before and After". In that timeline, Kes lives out her life on Voyager, marries, has a child, and grows old and faces the end of her journey.

Admittedly, some elements of that timeline might have been problematic if played at normal speed (such as getting an endless succession of little girls of various ages to play Linnis, to say nothing of the awkwardness of Harry marrying a character he had been feeding a bottle two or three seasons ago), but it could have been tweaked in places.

Regarding Lynx, Kes is a character that means a lot to him. So for him, an episode like "Fury" is going to be upsetting. As someone who has strong feelings about other elements of Trek, I can understand that.

All the same, I'm not prepared to declare with certainty that "Fury" was written as a cheap shot to Kes's fans. It seems more like a earnest but misguided attempt to bring back the character without being able to come up with a good way to do it ("Endgame" had a similar issue; its basic concept had already been explored in three far better Trek episodes). Also, it showed a lack of respect for the character's established traits... this was a prevailing issue in Voyager, which explains why Janeway's personality seemed to change from episode to episode.

 

[Lynx]

But since that hadn't really worked out, Fury almost seems like a re-tooling that might have worked.

No, it didn't work out. That horrible excuse for a Star Trek episode was only repulsive and insulting.

I take it you haven't watched Picard, yet.

I have watched it but I find the series a disappointment. Far from the high quality TNG had.
I'm not following the series anymore, maybe I'll watch one episode here and there but I prefer to re-watch TNG on my DVD:s.

Dying in the vacuum of space is a risk in a series set in space. It's less violent than having chunks of your flesh burned away with a high energy weapon or being sliced and stabbed by Klingon and Romulan hand-to-hand weaponry. Or transporter

Maybe.
But i see no reason to kill of Neelix in some slow-motion scene. In fact, the sadistic scenes where Icheb was killed of was one of my reasons to abandon Picard.
Icheb was never one of my favorites but that scene really annoyed me.
Not to mention that I hate most of the doom-and-gloom series which have been produced in the last decades.
I don't know how many times I've started to watch a movie or series but quit after about 20 minutes due to the doom-and-gloom scenarios.

I agree. She might have done better on DS9.

Thanks!
I think she would. Better writers and more space for characters other than the main characters and for characters outside the Starfleet formula. Just look at Garak, Nog and Rom.

Are you surprised that these three characters are my favorites?

No offense to Starfleet characters, most of them are great. But sometimes I just like the outsiders most.

 

[Oddish]

I think she would. Better writers and more space for characters other than the main characters and for characters outside the Starfleet formula. Just look at Garak, Nog and Rom.

Can you imagine what a series like DS9 would have done with Chakotay, Harry, and Kes?

 

[fireproof78]

I think they did it on purpose.

Why all of a sudden bring back a character which they had done everything to make fans and viewers forget just to humiliate and destroy that character?

There was a letter campaign going about having Kes back in the series. I'm pretty sure that the s**t episode in season 6 was their reply to that campaign.

They had two options:
They could have brought Kes back which would have been great.
Or they could have totally ignored all requests for having Kes back.
They did choose option three which was to totally destroy the character and by doing so showing the "finger" to those who wanted her back. Sort of: "You wanted your little favorite back? Well, eat this you scum and don't ever dare to question our decisions again!"

And unfortunately I also have to state that what they did in that episode was character destruction and nothing else.

Agree to disagree. I admire your passion but that's about it.

 

[Lynx]

Can you imagine what a series like DS9 would have done with Chakotay, Harry, and Kes?

When it comes to Harry, if they could make Rom what he became later on in the series, then Harry would have been a more sucessful and important character in DS9 too.

I consider both Kes and Chakotay (my No: 1 and No: 2 on the Voyager favorite list) as great characters who unfortunately never reached their real potential in Voyager. They were great but could have been much better, something the DS9 writers coud hade accomplished.

Agree to disagree. I admire your passion but that's about it.

I respect that.

It's just that I can't see any other purpose in bringing back a character which they had made everything to erase from the Voyager history-just to humiliate and destroy the character.

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding what you said about Neelix being dropped off 2 episodes before the finale, I honestly feel that was for the best.

Given that the characters really didn't get any closure in the finale, "HOMESTEAD" assured Neelix would get closure.

I have always said Neelix got the best ending of any character on VOYAGER, and I'll always maintain that.

 

[Oddish]

I have always said Neelix got the best ending of any character on VOYAGER, and I'll always maintain that.

You'll get no argument from me on that.

Hard to say whether Icheb or Carey should be considered to have gotten the worst.

 

[fireproof78]

Carey.

 

[somebuddyX]

So my way of rewatching Voyager has been just start with whichever episode I want and just jump around. I think Voyager's relative lack of continuity (compared to serialised shows like B5 or DS9 I mean) make it really fun to just jump around to whatever I want to see. Sometimes it's just really nice to watch a simple episode where they run into Q or that planet that's running really fast or the Doctor's living in a museum. Voyager's never been far from my memory so I can fill in the gaps.
On the other hand, I'm currently watching/rewatching Enterprise Season 1, one episode a week, and twenty years on without the burden of expectations these shows are pretty good.
And on a third hand, I recently tried watching Babylon 5 season 1 after watching every other season back in the 90s and while the re-edited pilot was solid, hot damn I slogged through all the way to Deathwalker and then gave up and I will never go back.
Give it a go and if you don't like it, there's always other media.