Should Apple unlock killer's phone?

[Gingerbread Demon]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sa...unlock-san-bernardino-shooters-iphone-n519881

Interesting.

One one hand I can see why the FBI would want this and on Apple's side I can see why they would be refusing such a move.

But don't the FBI have people that could break the phone and not have to worry about Apple? Surely the DOD has some kind of people they can call on for this sort of thing and loan them out to the FBI?

It will set a precedent if the court ruling goes against Apple.

 

[Jim Gamma]

^Encryption is by nature difficult to break without brute force. And all you need to do to prevent brute forcing is to use the iPhone's "Wipe this phone after 10 unsuccessful attempts" option.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I still don't see why the FBI or any other agency can't do this in their own house? Why go to Apple?

 

[Jim Gamma]

Because they can't get into the phone, so they can't download the data to try to brute force it. They can't just connect it to a PC because the phone won't trust it, and the PC can't read from a locked phone it's not been authorised to look at. And you need to unlock the phone to give that authorisation.

You could theoretically copy the data bit by bit onto a computer if the phone's storage would allow it (there are ways to make this very hard), but then you've basically got to duplicate iOS to figure out the file structure.

 

[{ Emilia }]

The thing is the thread title might as well be changed to: Should Apple give the FBI a tool to easily hack every single iPhone on the planet?

My short answer: No.
My long answer: Fuck, no.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The thing is the thread title might as well be changed to: Should Apple give the FBI a tool to easily hack every single iPhone on the planet?

My short answer: No.
My long answer: Fuck, no.

That's fine.

Arrrrrgh I feel so torn. I do like and value privacy but can see what they are trying to do as well. I wonder what is so important on that phone that they must have so urgently.. Unless this is just some damn fishing expedition by the alphabet agencies.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Stepping away from the technical issues (which I think have been well-described already), from a civil rights standpoint, the government should not simply get all the access to people's private files that they demand, especially not in the guise of terrorism investigations. We've given up too much already and it's about time regular people got a little protection here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Any backdoor that the government can use, hackers (and even other governments) can also exploit. So the answer would be no.

 

[Kirby]

Why doesn't the FBI just give the phone to NCIS? They could have that thing cracked by the end of the commercial break.

Apple should NOT create a backdoor for the FBI to use at their leisure, but on an extreme case basis, and if Apple could maintain control over the entire process, then I'm ok with that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But that's the thing. Once a backdoor is created, there's no such thing as a one-time process. If one ever exists, it will exist for all time, and hackers can therefore use it for their own ends. It makes the entire system insecure.

 

[farmkid]

Despite the compelling law enforcement and national security arguments, I think forcing Apple to help the FBI get into this phone is very bad move. They say it is only just this once, but it won't be. How long will it be before another, slightly less urgent situation comes along and this is used as a precedent? Not very long, I bet. Essentially, giving the FBI access in this one instance will lead to serious violations of civil rights. Combined with the Patriot Act, this will essentially allow law enforcement to look at anyone's phones at any time to look for whatever they want without our knowledge. You might say "well, I'm not doing anything wrong, so I have nothing to hide", but it doesn't matter that you believe there's nothing incriminating on your phone. What matters is if law enforcement thinks they can charge you with anything based on what's on your phone. And so many laws today, no one knows all of them and many legal experts believe that just about everyone knowingly commits about one felony per day. That means that if you do something to piss off someone in government or to otherwise attract their attention, they will have the ammunition to make your life hell.

^Encryption is by nature difficult to break without brute force. And all you need to do to prevent brute forcing is to use the iPhone's "Wipe this phone after 10 unsuccessful attempts" option.

Does this feature mean that if I want screw with someone, I can erase their phone by just entering the wrong passcode 10 times? Or that if my kid gets my phone and starts messing with it that they could erase everything on it?

 

[Kirby]

^ But that's the thing. Once a backdoor is created, there's no such thing as a one-time process. If one ever exists, it will exist for all time, and hackers can therefore use it for their own ends. It makes the entire system insecure.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I think Apple knows how to break into their own phones already.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Does this feature mean that if I want screw with someone, I can erase their phone by just entering the wrong passcode 10 times? Or that if my kid gets my phone and starts messing with it that they could erase everything on it?

Yes, but it would be a minor inconvenience since, if you are using the phone like most people, it's backed up to iCloud. So you're always just a factory reset away from getting all your data back.

If someone did this to you every day I'm sure it would become quite a hassle, though.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

many legal experts believe that just about everyone knowingly commits about one felony per day.

Yeah, I'm gonna...not believe that.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Yeah, I'm gonna...not believe that.

Which is a felony.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^

 

[Awesome Possum]

Yeah, I'm gonna...not believe that.

It happens, some laws were meant to be broken. Usually several times a day.

Granted I didn't get to vote on those laws and oppose them on every level, so I consider myself to be morally justified to continue to break them.

I don't care what those mattress people or the government says, I'm going to remove those tags.

 

[farmkid]

Yes, but it would be a minor inconvenience since, if you are using the phone like most people, it's backed up to iCloud. So you're always just a factory reset away from getting all your data back.

If someone did this to you every day I'm sure it would become quite a hassle, though.

So does that mean the data the FBI wants is on iCloud? If so, why are they messing with the phone?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I think Apple knows how to break into their own phones already.

I am pretty sure Apple if they wanted to could break into their own products. After all they make the things. They'd know how. Same for any other phone manufacturer.

I've been thinking about this overnight and changed my mind.

Fuck no to this happening.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

So does that mean the data the FBI wants is on iCloud? If so, why are they messing with the phone?

You can disable iCloud syncing, which was done in this case. The couple months leading up to the attack, nothing got sent up to iCloud, and it's whatever is on the phone from that time period which the FBI wants to get at.