Should Abrams Have Done A Clean Reboot

[Khan 2.0]

How so?

To much references to wrath of khan. I think STID should have taken a complete fresh way forward. DO as much s as it can to spate itself from the tos timeline.

I think part of the fun of a reboot is taking a new look at old material. I've enjoyed multiple versions of the Joker and Lex Luthor over the years. I thought seeing Khan again was fun, and outside of the engine room scene there is very little of The Wrath of Khan in it.
.

I thought there was LOADS of TWOK in STID:

Spocks near 'needs of the many' death at the start, the use of torpedoes for storage of bodies, the Khan brig scene was kind of similar to the Khan/Chekov scene on Ceti Alpha V and seemed to contain some very Horneresque cues, Kirk trying to give himself up to spare his crew, khan commandeering a federation vessel, Spock liaising with khan on the viewscreen trying to negotiate terms/tricking khan with the torpedoes (like kirk tricking khan with Prefix – 'you used what he wanted against him' – it is what you would have done'), beaming over a torpedo then it detonating, and of course Spock Prime recounting the events of TWOK, (and as mentioned the radiation chamber end with word for word lines/Khan! yell)

plus other stuff like Khans very WOKesque ridged coat (which helped give the game away he was khan in photos before release), Spocks line - 'Wrath' of the Klingons, the USS Vengeance recalled the original title of Star Trek II - The 'Vengeance' of Khan

 

[Franklin]

To much references to wrath of khan. I think STID should have taken a complete fresh way forward. DO as much s as it can to spate itself from the tos timeline.

I think part of the fun of a reboot is taking a new look at old material. I've enjoyed multiple versions of the Joker and Lex Luthor over the years. I thought seeing Khan again was fun, and outside of the engine room scene there is very little of The Wrath of Khan in it.
.

I thought there was LOADS of TWOK in STID:

Spocks near 'needs of the many' death at the start, the use of torpedoes for storage of bodies, the Khan brig scene was kind of similar to the Khan/Chekov scene on Ceti Alpha V and seemed to contain some very Horneresque cues, Kirk trying to give himself up to spare his crew, khan commandeering a federation vessel, Spock liaising with khan on the viewscreen trying to negotiate terms/tricking khan with the torpedoes (like kirk tricking khan with Prefix – 'you used what he wanted against him' – it is what you would have done'), beaming over a torpedo then it detonating, and of course Spock Prime recounting the events of TWOK, (and as mentioned the radiation chamber end with word for word lines/Khan! yell)

plus other stuff like Khans very WOKesque ridged coat (which helped give the game away he was khan in photos before release), Spocks line - 'Wrath' of the Klingons, the USS Vengeance recalled the original title of Star Trek II - The 'Vengeance' of Khan

Just my opinion, but those are very stretched comparisons. That said, you left out using Carol Marcus in both movies.

I'm sorry, but where it matters most to me, thematically and in character arcs, TWOK and STID were as different stories and uses of Khan as the appearances of the Joker were in "Batman" in 1989 and "The Dark Knight" in 2008. (And by the way, Heath Ledger looked nothing like Jack Nicolson, who looked nothing like Cesar Romero, and so on.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

the use of torpedoes for storage of bodies

I'm not sure Spock body in a torpedo counts as storage. It was a coffin not a morgue drawer,

 

[drt]

Plus, a lot of those are supposed to be "Easter eggs" for fans, which is funny because it's really only for casual fans since it drives the hardest core ones crazy (like using the name "Delta Vega" in '09).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Plus, a lot of those are supposed to be "Easter eggs" for fans, which is funny because it's really only for casual fans since it drives the hardest core ones crazy (like using the name "Delta Vega" in '09).

I'm pretty hardcore, but I love a good Easter Egg. They make me smile.

 

[Set Harth]

it was a proper reboot. at least star trek 2009 was as it took place in an alternate reality.

In Star Trek alternate realities are places you can visit and sometimes come back from. It was in no way a proper reboot. The alternate timeline branches from the Prime, and during the film we even see the depiction of events which had occurred in the Prime timeline. Spock Prime is ( as the nomenclature implies ) Spock from the Prime timeline, the same character who lived through TOS, the TOS films, and Unification. The Abrams films are in the same overall continuity as the Prime timeline material.

 

[Franklin]

Plus, a lot of those are supposed to be "Easter eggs" for fans, which is funny because it's really only for casual fans since it drives the hardest core ones crazy (like using the name "Delta Vega" in '09).

I'm pretty hardcore, but I love a good Easter Egg. They make me smile.

Me too. My favorite in STID was the attending physician's name on the screen near Kirk's hospital bed at the end of the movie was Dr. Boyce. How can doing something like that ruin a movie for anyone? (And no, I didn't notice that until my fourth or fifth Blu-Ray viewing.)

As far as the new universe "seeping" into the old one goes, maybe they should've been more explicit in ST09, but that was kind of the point. A completely new reboot is a cold start and a true separation of all that came before. This reboot actually ties the universes together through Spock Prime, and creates its own internal logic for the things that are similar (the idea that fate has a hand in things that "must be" like the seven getting together or Kirk coming across Khan and having a life-changing experience whatever the circumstances are). It's cool.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The idea that a "clean reboot" will somehow never reference bits from the previous continuity is a foolish one. Every reboot I've seen has had elements of the previous continuity referenced. Even casting old cast members in new parts is a nod.

 

[Mjolnir2000]

Should have been a clean reboot. Firstly, because they wouldn't have been able to rely on Nimoy telling the audience how scary Khan was supposed to be, and might have actually made him menacing in his own right, and secondly, because it's obvious a completely different universe with a completely different style, and trying to reconcile it as somehow belonging to the same continuity just doesn't work.

 

[ChristopherPike]

I'd have been happier if a Khan with Montalban's likeness had been referenced. Something which runs like a teaser for the graphic novel basically. A montage of the character's history flashing up - a Starfleet vessel finding the Botany Bay and images to illustrate much like in the first film where there's a dream-like sequence showing Spock Prime failing to save Romulus. Instead of a prolonged close-up of Cumberbatch is in the brig, explaining how John Harrison is a fiction created by Section 31... that would've been broken up with flashes of Admiral Marcus leading a boarding party, Khan as he was, an operating theatre, Harrison waking up, and lastly in the middle of some violent mission while he speaks of being used.

My problem with Easter Eggs, is that they come off as poorly thought through, and obviously there to pay lip service to the history and nothing more. Kind of like fridge logic, the more you think about it after the credits have rolled, the less they seemed to work. Sure, they can't have the whole film grind to a halt to explain the expanded universe. This I understand. But there should be an alternative to soulless name dropping.

 

[F. King Daniel]

and secondly, because it's obvious a completely different universe with a completely different style, and trying to reconcile it as somehow belonging to the same continuity just doesn't work.

Isn't the same true of TOS and everything that came after, visually and tonally? I recall TOS fans feeling their show had been ignored and rewritten to fit the TNG universe's way of doing things and TNG fans who saw TOS as a vaguely embarrassing relic that didn't really fit into their continuity.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

I'd have been happier if a Khan with Montalban's likeness had been referenced. Something which runs like a teaser for the graphic novel basically. A montage of the character's history flashing up - a Starfleet vessel finding the Botany Bay and images to illustrate much like in the first film where there's a dream-like sequence showing Spock Prime failing to save Romulus.

This would have solved most of my issues with the movie. That plus dump the two TWOK rehashes (hell, let Kirk die if you think that's a good plot point, just don't send him to the engine room!) and I wouldn't have complained as much.

 

[Set Harth]

because it's obvious a completely different universe with a completely different style, and trying to reconcile it as somehow belonging to the same continuity just doesn't work.

In Star Trek different universes exist within the same overall continuity. Also, style really means nothing.

 

[Therin of Andor]

and secondly, because it's obvious a completely different universe with a completely different style, and trying to reconcile it as somehow belonging to the same continuity just doesn't work.

Isn't the same true of TOS and everything that came after, visually and tonally? I recall TOS fans feeling their show had been ignored and rewritten to fit the TNG universe's way of doing things and TNG fans who saw TOS as a vaguely embarrassing relic that didn't really fit into their continuity.

Go back to fan critiques of TMP in places like "The Best of Trek" books and you'll find letters and articles by TOS fans trying to explain TMP as obviously an alternate universe because of the uniforms, transporter and warp FX, Perscan devices, wrist communicators, Enterprise redesign, Kirk's promotion, changed Klingon (and Andorian) makeups, lots of new UFP aliens, and even Spock and McCoy having broken up "the triumvirate".

 

[Set Harth]

History repeats itself...

 

[Malaika]

funny enough, I think that if he had done a 'clean reboot' like you are saying, the trek purists would hate the reboot even more for basically rewriting tos/the prime reality.
The fact that the reboot is set in another reality should give to those people some comfort in that there are two separate stories now and they aren't really rewriting history like other reboots/remakes do, and where you have changes those are justified by this being another reality. Yet, even with this being another reality some people still complain that they changed their trek.
There is no way they could have a clean reboot (this is one, IMO, precisely because they have another reality) and placate some fans.. unless the reboot was a carbon copy of the old thing... and in that case there would be no need for a reboot at all.

 

[Mjolnir2000]

and secondly, because it's obvious a completely different universe with a completely different style, and trying to reconcile it as somehow belonging to the same continuity just doesn't work.

Isn't the same true of TOS and everything that came after, visually and tonally? I recall TOS fans feeling their show had been ignored and rewritten to fit the TNG universe's way of doing things and TNG fans who saw TOS as a vaguely embarrassing relic that didn't really fit into their continuity.

Well you've got a hundred years to help you explain away the differences between TOS and TNG while TOS and nuTrek are theoretically the same era. Also you the original films to help bridge the gap, showing what TOS would have looked like with a good budget. The Constitution class refit is believably an evolution of the original design (even if there's no way in hell it's an actual refit), and the Galaxy class, while it does have those graceful curves, is still believably utilitarian in design. The flashy sports car JJPrise with its pulse phasers and brewery warp core and hyper fast transewarp drive (and yes, I know the rest of trek always had trouble with speed consistency) just doesn't 'fit' in my mind. The Kelvin was perfect, apart from the size. It felt like the Original Series in CGI. As for tone, while TOS had more false gods than TNG, I don't see that much of a difference; they were both mainly morality plays and interesting what-ifs.

Basically, I don't see that anything was gained by keeping the new films connected, and having a bunch of inconsistencies to explain away only makes it harder to suspend my disbelief as I try to let myself be drawn into the narrative.

 

[Mjolnir2000]

funny enough, I think that if he had done a 'clean reboot' like you are saying, the trek purists would hate the reboot even more for basically rewriting tos/the prime reality.
The fact that the reboot is set in another reality should give to those people some comfort in that there are two separate stories now and they aren't really rewriting history like other reboots/remakes do, and where you have changes those are justified by this being another reality. Yet, even with this being another reality some people still complain that they changed their trek.
There is no way they could have a clean reboot (this is one, IMO, precisely because they have another reality) and placate some fans.. unless the reboot was a carbon copy of the old thing... and in that case there would be no need for a reboot at all.

How is a clean reboot any less an alternate reality than time travel shenanigans? If anything it's parallel worlds like the mirror universe that exist alongside the prime continuity, while it's time travel that tends to erase stuff. Not that I particularly care either way, though for the sake of the novels, it would have been nice if they could have avoided blowing up Romulus.

 

[Wulff359]

I tend to desagree with Malaika. I think a clean and independend reboot would have been easier accepted by the so called "Hardcore Fans", than this soft-pre-se-quel-reboot. Because the JJ-Boot is so undisicive, weather it is a continuation, or a new start over, the forums around the globe are filled with people trying to make heads or tails of it.

My Point is: would Star Trek: Star Trek 2009 have been a clean reboot - a new ship, a new crew with familiar features and names - the fans who did not like it would have had the opportunity to say: I don't like it, but people who like it are welcome to. I have my own Star Trek. (Of course, the debate would have been about which of the versions was the REAL Star Trek.)

But the JJ-Boot utilized the Prime Universe and changed it. So it became impossible to say "This is your Star Trek - and this is my Star Trek" because it is (according to the storyline of the 2009 film) the SAME Star Trek Timeline.

With a clean reboot, one could have explained every difference between the now shown and what was on the old TV Show. They could even have completely redesigned Klingons and Romulans and Breen... Including their backgroundstories

I think by trying to eat the cake and keep it at the same time, the KLO Team wasted a chance to really rid themselfes of the balast of the old storylines AND create a brand new fresh and original universe around the caracters. (That is at least their explanation why they wanted to soft-re-pre-se-quel-boot.)

 

[SPCTRE]

Time for a clean reboot. *shudders*