Should a Galaxy Class ship required a Commodore?

[TheSubCommander]

The rank of Commodore has always intrigued me. Its not quite an admiral but more than a captain. In some sense it is just another way of saying "senior captain," more ceremonial than anything else. And in Star Trek, there is the precedent with Commodore Decker. He was a CO of a ship, filling the role of a captain. But in the TNG era, the rank disappeared

Given the special status of the Galaxy class, and the Enterprise-D in particular, do you think that the Galaxy class ships should have, rather than have a captain as a CO, should have had a Commodore?

Enterprise-D was a huge ship, which literally can become two ships. Captaining it is 10 times more difficult than say a Miranda, or even an Oberth class. Also, its clear from the beginning of TNG, that Picard was chosen as captain of the Enterprise-D due to his long and distinguished captaincy on the Stargazer. Also, it is mentioned (at the time of its launch, anyway), that the Galaxy class ships are the top of the line, not to mention that when the saucer is detached, it literally is two ships in one. With the Enterprise in particular, it is billed as the "flag ship."

In fact, a case could be made that there should be co-captains, a junior and a senior captain, particularly in times of saucer separation. The idea of co-captains would have solved the fact that Riker WAS a captain in BOBW, but was demoted to remain first officer in later seasons. There has been a lot of debate as to whether Riker should have moved on from the Enterprise after BOBW, and captained his own shipWhat would have been wrong with making Riker the captain, and promoting Picard to Commodore. Their job duties would not change, but their status of position would be more fitting of the responsibilities of the ship.

Also, there's been times where Picard has taken the role of fleet captain in multi-ship task forces, not only because he has the ship with the most tactical advantage, but because he was the captain with the most experience and arguably the one of the best captains of his era.

 

[Timo]

Captaining it is 10 times more difficult than say a Miranda, or even an Oberth class.

Is it, though? The missions performed by Picard were in general not different from the missions performed by Kirk, and included pretty menial stuff ranging from surveys to ferrying of VIPs to rescuing damsel-in-distress vessels and colonies. And Picard could always sit and wait while a dozen Klingons fired at him, debating with his officers what action if any he should take, while Kirk would have to respond in a split second lest his shields be pierced and his ship lost...

Also, its clear from the beginning of TNG, that Picard was chosen as captain of the Enterprise-D due to his long and distinguished captaincy on the Stargazer.

We don't know that Picard would have had a long captaincy of that ship. He served on that ship at an early stage, yes, and later was her commanding officer. But we aren't even certain whether it was a continuous stay, or whether the latter, CO part was particularly long or in any way distinguished. All we were really told was that it ended in infamy, loss and court martial...

With the Enterprise in particular, it is billed as the "flag ship."

Which prompts me to vote for option 2. But this role might befall a ship of a different class as well. I agree the Galaxy is an impressive design, and furthermore potentially designed to impress. The Nebula might be the same thing in a more spartan package, say. But the UFP might slap the flagship label on a particularly fast or particularly scary ship as well, depending on the circumstances; the Galaxy wasn't necessarily either of those. Or a historical relic might receive the honor. A Commodore in command (or at least aboard, with a Captain driving the ship) would be proper for reasons of protocol, not out of tactical need or the like.

...I wonder if Commodore Decker had a Captain as CO for his ship before he got everybody else killed? Or Commodore Wesley before he took casualties from M-5?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bolak]

In TNG we don't really see any scenarios that would involve a Commodore; in my 'personal canon' they'd probably be out on the frontiers commanding squadrons of patrol ships, or in core systems commanding a group of interceptors. Commanders and Captains on those ships would be the 'doers', the Commodore would be the planner and 'teller'. Probably riding along for experience more than sitting behind a desk, as Admirals tend to do.

Any time we actually saw groups of ships in action ( such as in DS9 ) they were large capital ships being commanded en masse appropriately by one or more Admirals.

I'd say that captaincy of a Galaxy Class would be a golden ticket on the career track to Commodore, in terms of demonstrated skills in man-management and supra-tactical thinking, but the likes of Sisko would also be a strong candidat e given the types and numbers of resources he commanded.

Picard could probably jump straight from Captain to Rear Admiral given his experience in diplomacy, but that would require him to forfeit direct command of vessels in daily duty. Commodore would seem to suit Riker better as a career ambition, he likes being hands-on.

 

[The Wormhole]

And in Star Trek, there is the precedent with Commodore Decker. He was a CO of a ship, filling the role of a captain. But in the TNG era, the rank disappeared

It didn't disappear, it was re-branded "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" just like in the real world US Navy.

Commodores don't typically command ships. They didn't really make it very clear why Decker was in command of a ship in The Doomsday Machine, other than for dramatic purposes the story needed an officer who outranked Kirk. Typically, like any other flag officer a Commodore aboard ship is only in command of the ship's mission or any fleet or task force the ship might be part of.

 

[Timo]

It didn't disappear, it was re-branded "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" just like in the real world US Navy.

Dialogue never features any "Upper Half" or "Lower Half" silliness, even though it does feature the words "Rear Admiral" in two TNG era episodes, both times referring to JAG flag officers (of whom Satie is out of uniform, and Bennett sports the four pips of full Admiral).

Commodore disappears in TNG in the sense that we never see a one-pip Admiral. Except we sort of do: in the first season, "Conspiracy" shows that the flag uniform can be worn with at least zero, one or two pips. And each one of those is addressed as "Admiral". We don't know what the exact terminology behind the pips would be for that era; all we know is that later on, with the "boxed" pips on collars, three is appropriate for Fleet Admiral and four for Rear Admiral, which basically completely contradicts the idea that there would be any connection to the USN practices.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TheSubCommander]

Is it, though?

I think so. That is like saying being a captain of a Coast Guard cutter is the same as being a captain of an aircraft carrier. I think the latter is far more demanding.

We don't know that Picard would have had a long captaincy of that ship

He was supposedly captain for 22 years.

But this role might befall a ship of a different class as well.

At the time of TNG, the E-D was it. It's unknown to me if E-E retained the title or it went to another ship or class.

In TNG we don't really see any scenarios that would involve a Commodore; in my 'personal canon' they'd probably be out on the frontiers commanding squadrons of patrol ships, or in core systems commanding a group of interceptors. Commanders and Captains on those ships would be the 'doers', the Commodore would be the planner and 'teller'. Probably riding along for experience more than sitting behind a desk, as Admirals tend to do.

Well, aside from my idea that the Galaxy class is really two ships in one in special situations (as far as I know most saucer federation ships can separate, but the Galaxies seem unique in reassembling themselves without a star base or space dock), I believe in TNG the episode Redemption II could be cited as Picard filling the role of Commodore, during the blockade of the Romulans. Also, this is actually getting into DS9, but typically there were Galaxy class battle groups, where the Galaxy classes were escorted by other ships, with the Galaxy class as the lead of the battle group. I think those cases could qualify as a case for a commodore.

It didn't disappear, it was re-branded "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" just like in the real world US Navy.

I was aware that was done in the US Navy, but in what case was that stated in TNG. Was this in a book? If so, do you happen to know which one?

 

[suarezguy]

I like it as it is; commodore seems like it would be a superfluous intermediate position, at least for the stories shown, and the captain and first officer should develop enough command of the crew and trust in each other that they don't have to actually be co-captains to operate similarly to as if they were, especially during saucer separations.

 

[sonak]

it should have had a flag officer, as the "flagship," not because it was a galaxy-class one. Star Trek writers weren't very informed about military stuff though, because they seemed to think "flagship" just meant "really big, important ship." Nothing new with that, as they also didn't understand the difference between staff officers and line officers("Disaster") or the distinction in what enlisted personnel and officers do.

 

[MacLeod]

Well just because we don't see the rank of Commodore in the TNG era trek doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

it should have had a flag officer, as the "flagship," not because it was a galaxy-class one. Star Trek writers weren't very informed about military stuff though, because they seemed to think "flagship" just meant "really big, important ship." Nothing new with that, as they also didn't understand the difference between staff officers and line officers("Disaster") or the distinction in what enlisted personnel and officers do.

But one of the definitions of flagship is the most important thing owned or operated by an organsition. But by the 24th century what we class as staff and line officers today might not hold true then. Anyway in "DisasterW whilst Troi appeared to be nominal in charge it look like O'Brien was running the show. As Troi seemed to follow his advice more than Ro's.

 

[Timo]

That is like saying being a captain of a Coast Guard cutter is the same as being a captain of an aircraft carrier. I think the latter is far more demanding.

Personnel management gets more difficult when crew count goes up from twenty to two thousand, yes. But that's the worry of the XO, really.

In which way are the missions and operations of a Galaxy qualitatively more demanding than those of a Miranda? Both have "flight decks" operating multiple "aircraft", so that doesn't create a big difference yet. Both have the usual things: phasers, torpedo launchers, sensors, scanners, labs, cargo and supply holds, whatever. Both appear to perform the same types of missions.

A CG cutter has far simpler aircraft ops (if any) in comparison to a carrier, operates a narrower range of sensors that don't allow her to perform situational awareness and management ops similar to those of a carrier, has no command and communications facilities for management of multi-ship ops, etc. Those are real qualitative differences that don't apply in the starship case.

He was supposedly captain for 22 years.

Nope. The episodes and movies tell us nothing about when he became captain. That 22 yr thing is an unused tidbit from a writers' guide, apparently abandoned along with assorted other stuff.

Really, being stuck commanding a single decrepit relic for 22 years is a recommendation? It would instead appear to establish that Picard is incapable of getting promoted to meatier assignments.

At the time of TNG, the E-D was it. It's unknown to me if E-E retained the title or it went to another ship or class.

Yup, "Flagship of the Federation" is a title only ever used for the E-D, so we can't tell one way or another. If it's class-related, we should remember that the Galaxy class persists beyond the loss of the E-D, and might well still rule sovereign among Starfleet designs when it comes to big and flashy showpiece ships.

I believe in TNG the episode Redemption II could be cited as Picard filling the role of Commodore, during the blockade of the Romulans. Also, this is actually getting into DS9, but typically there were Galaxy class battle groups, where the Galaxy classes were escorted by other ships, with the Galaxy class as the lead of the battle group. I think those cases could qualify as a case for a commodore.

Then there is "Chain of Command" that basically tells that the E-D and the Galaxy class in general were designed to command multiple other ships in combat, or at least were expected to perform that task at the drop of a hat.

Certainly somebody sitting in the center chair of a Galaxy would be a de facto commodore, then; the word isn't just a rank, but also a job description extending to such things as "convoy commodore" (a civilian lording over a group of ships in convoy and holding liaison with possible military escorts).

they seemed to think "flagship" just meant "really big, important ship.

...Which it does, among other things. Several episodes used the word "flagship" in the other sense, indicating the ship where a flag officer has unfurled her flag, kicked up her legs, ordered a basket of canapes and assumed command of a formation. Both usages might be considered valid.

Well just because we don't see the rank of Commodore in the TNG era trek doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

...But the first season of TNG does establish that even the lowest and least decorated flag rank is addressed as "Admiral", while the form of address in ST:TMP still was "Commodore". So something has changed (even if only for the duration of TNG S1, potentially reverting back by S2).

Anyway in "DisasterW whilst Troi appeared to be nominal in charge it look like O'Brien was running the show. As Troi seemed to follow his advice more than Ro's.

Yes, it was a complex game of personnel politics there. Quite possibly Troi had no business being in formal command, but O'Brien forced her there and thus played Ro out of the board. We might wonder why Ro doesn't cry foul, but that might simply not be her style - instead, we see her defying Troi's supposed authority, consistently refusing to address her by rank or position, using insulting body language etc, all things that should have Troi crying foul if she really thought she was formally entitled to the privileges of the position (or O'Brien crying foul for her). It was just a bit of make-believe to keep things from exploding, be they warp cores or demi-rogue Ensigns.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TheSubCommander]

Personnel management gets more difficult when crew count goes up from twenty to two thousand, yes. But that's the worry of the XO, really.

In which way are the missions and operations of a Galaxy qualitatively more demanding than those of a Miranda? Both have "flight decks" operating multiple "aircraft", so that doesn't create a big difference yet. Both have the usual things: phasers, torpedo launchers, sensors, scanners, labs, cargo and supply holds, whatever. Both appear to perform the same types of missions.

A CG cutter has far simpler aircraft ops (if any) in comparison to a carrier, operates a narrower range of sensors that don't allow her to perform situational awareness and management ops similar to those of a carrier, has no command and communications facilities for management of multi-ship ops, etc. Those are real qualitative differences that don't apply in the starship case.

Nope. The episodes and movies tell us nothing about when he became captain. That 22 yr thing is an unused tidbit from a writers' guide, apparently abandoned along with assorted other stuff.

Really, being stuck commanding a single decrepit relic for 22 years is a recommendation? It would instead appear to establish that Picard is incapable of getting promoted to meatier assignments.

Well, by that rationale, you are arguing against yourself.

Which is it? A captain is a captain, regardless of size of ship, or are there some ship assignments and captaincies that are more demanding and distinguished than others? If it is the latter, doesn't such a position deserve the accolades that come with the accomplishment? Even silly titles can make all the difference.

And in my personal canon, Picard was the 24th century analogue to Kirk in his younger days, and he did in fact spend 22 years on the Stargazer as a distinguished captain. Really, in season 1, he was written that way, IMHO.

Then there is "Chain of Command" that basically tells that the E-D and the Galaxy class in general were designed to command multiple other ships in combat, or at least were expected to perform that task at the drop of a hat.

Certainly somebody sitting in the center chair of a Galaxy would be a de facto commodore, then; the word isn't just a rank, but also a job description extending to such things as "convoy commodore" (a civilian lording over a group of ships in convoy and holding liaison with possible military escorts).

Very good point!

 

[Salinga]

I would always go with an Atari.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Yeah, but all the Atari kids secretly wished they had a ColecoVision. At least until NES.

 

[trekshark]

I voted "Only in Picard's case, since the Enterprise-D was the flagship" and I'd add that since it was the flagship and got so many diplomatic missions that it should have also had dedicated diplomatic staff onboard even if they were limited to advising Picard and not the ones making decisions

 

[The Old Mixer]

Each in command of a Galaxy-class starship...that would be one funky fleet....

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5EmnQp3V48[/yt]

 

[sonak]

Well just because we don't see the rank of Commodore in the TNG era trek doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

it should have had a flag officer, as the "flagship," not because it was a galaxy-class one. Star Trek writers weren't very informed about military stuff though, because they seemed to think "flagship" just meant "really big, important ship." Nothing new with that, as they also didn't understand the difference between staff officers and line officers("Disaster") or the distinction in what enlisted personnel and officers do.

But one of the definitions of flagship is the most important thing owned or operated by an organsition. But by the 24th century what we class as staff and line officers today might not hold true then. Anyway in "DisasterW whilst Troi appeared to be nominal in charge it look like O'Brien was running the show. As Troi seemed to follow his advice more than Ro's.

relying on someone else's expertise when making decisions doesn't mean one is not in charge, that's just being smart and knowing your limitations. Troi was still making the command decisions there which was just silly. Her rank aside, as psychologist she shouldn't have been in the chain of command anymore than a Navy chaplain is.

 

[Timo]

A captain is a captain, regardless of size of ship, or are there some ship assignments and captaincies that are more demanding and distinguished than others?

Surely the latter must be true. And what is also important is that the officer remain dynamic, capable of adapting to new challenges: mere good, solid work of a single kind doesn't make you stand out sufficiently to be hand-picked for UFP Flagship command.

Also significant would probably be whether Picard came in contact with other Starfleet and civilian personnel who would later speak in his favor. If he's out there commanding a deep space exploration vessel for two decades, it's difficult to mingle, brown-nose and impress.

Picard was the 24th century analogue to Kirk in his younger days

Hmm... Possibly. But Kirk was described as an uptight "stack of books with legs", squealer and stickler to rules, while Picard apparently was quite the hellraiser. And we don't really know how long Kirk was stuck doing a single assignment - he did five years on the Enterprise, but may have had other commands and prime assignments before and after. That he perhaps became associated with the Enterprise in the public view would be due to him abusing his authority in ST:TMP for a nostalgia trip. And even that maneuver didn't necessarily bring him to constant contact with the ship, as he's again riding a desk when we next see him, and only performs birthday cruises, joyrides and one-off diplomatic missions with her in the later movies.

Troi was still making the command decisions there which was just silly.

How so? Her two underlings apparently had all the technical facts down pat, so she could make informed choice between courses of action, choosing decent odds of lots of lives saved (O'Brien) against excellent odds of few lives saved (Ro). Why couldn't a chaplain or a dentist make that choice, when somebody clearly had to?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

A captain is a captain, regardless of size of ship, or are there some ship assignments and captaincies that are more demanding and distinguished than others?

Surely the latter must be true. And what is also important is that the officer remain dynamic, capable of adapting to new challenges: mere good, solid work of a single kind doesn't make you stand out sufficiently to be hand-picked for UFP Flagship command.

Also significant would probably be whether Picard came in contact with other Starfleet and civilian personnel who would later speak in his favor. If he's out there commanding a deep space exploration vessel for two decades, it's difficult to mingle, brown-nose and impress.

Picard was the 24th century analogue to Kirk in his younger days

Hmm... Possibly. But Kirk was described as an uptight "stack of books with legs", squealer and stickler to rules, while Picard apparently was quite the hellraiser. And we don't really know how long Kirk was stuck doing a single assignment - he did five years on the Enterprise, but may have had other commands and prime assignments before and after. That he perhaps became associated with the Enterprise in the public view would be due to him abusing his authority in ST:TMP for a nostalgia trip. And even that maneuver didn't necessarily bring him to constant contact with the ship, as he's again riding a desk when we next see him, and only performs birthday cruises, joyrides and one-off diplomatic missions with her in the later movies.

Troi was still making the command decisions there which was just silly.

How so? Her two underlings apparently had all the technical facts down pat, so she could make informed choice between courses of action, choosing decent odds of lots of lives saved (O'Brien) against excellent odds of few lives saved (Ro). Why couldn't a chaplain or a dentist make that choice, when somebody clearly had to?

Timo Saloniemi

Well this is getting off topic because the thread's not about "disaster" but it's kind of relevant because it's the same type of misunderstanding as the "flagship" thing.

Troi, as a ship's psychologist, is part of the same category as chaplains or doctors. They're specialists, they're typically not part of the traditional chain of command in a navy. Their rank is relevant to the extent that it matters for things like pay, seniority within the field, etc., but not as far as outranking a line officer would put Troi in a position of command. You don't say "hey, the chaplain is a Lt. Commander, he's next up in charge because the operations officer is just a lieutenant." It doesn't work that way.

As you can tell from the episode, Troi did not have the experience as far as starship knowledge of operations. Anyone can just take competing advice from two people and then make a decision, that doesn't mean they belong in command. Of course Troi makes the right call and does okay because it's a work of fiction and her name is in the credits.

 

[J.T.B.]

Troi, as a ship's psychologist, is part of the same category as chaplains or doctors. They're specialists, they're typically not part of the traditional chain of command in a navy. Their rank is relevant to the extent that it matters for things like pay, seniority within the field, etc., but not as far as outranking a line officer would put Troi in a position of command. You don't say "hey, the chaplain is a Lt. Commander, he's next up in charge because the operations officer is just a lieutenant." It doesn't work that way.

Yes. Or to turn it around: Would a captain trained to command a ship be qualified to choose between courses of medical treatment recommended by MD lieutenants, simply because the captain has a higher rank?

 

[DWF]

They tried to get Lionel Richie but he only wanted to work on the night shift.