Shipper war: Spock/Uhura or Spock/Chapel?

[indranee]

I dislike almost all of the episodic women he was with, mostly because he was out of character for some reason when interested in them (spores, regression due to going back in time, etc). I understand the necessity of some kind of catalyst to temporarily modify his behavior, and it's fun to watch, but it does little for long-term interest. Also, they seemed rather bland as characters (I'm thinking specifically of Droxine, Zarabeth, and Leila). All blonde and soft-focused and smiling like lovesick puppies. I don't mind sweet, innocent characters, but come on, girls. You have to work harder than that if you want to keep a Vulcan after he's come down from outside influence.

you didn't like the Romulan Commander?

Ah, you're right there. But that was a ruse.

Personally, I always thought Spock dug her.

I believe he did. and I also believe it was mutual. hence, the scene in the elevator at the end

(one of my favorite Trek novels over the years has been Sonni Cooper's Black Fire)

 

[indranee]

Greg, does that mean we can look forward to Sp/U nuance in your subsequent Trek novels?!

Yes, please.

Nothing definite in the works at the moment, but maybe someday . . . .

well, make it so then!!

 

[DevilEyes]

Are you kidding? After the movie "Obsessed," we really don't need another movie with a triangle like that. And let's fact it, we all know that no matter what happens in the movie, it will turn into a female race war among the fans. Look no further than the IMDB forum for the movie.

I fail to understand why we're even addressing this. If Abrams put Spock with Chapel, we wouldn't even entertain the possibility of Spock choosing Uhura. There would be no polls, no controversial threads, and no questions asked.

I can't believe that so many people like Star Trek, but can't handle Uhura being the romantic lead. Things like this really tick me off!

Because of all the people who have been whining, I mean complaining, "OMG why Uhura? Where is Chapel? Bring back Chapel! She's the one who was in love with Spock" (as if two women can't be attracted to the same man ) eversince the movie first came out. Then there are also those who are complaining because they're just appalled by the idea of Spock not being emotionless and asexual. I wanted to know what the actual stats were, and I have to say I am surprised by the results.

Personally, I'd have been very disappointed if they hadn't finally done something with S/U after all those years... Although TBH the movie has surpassed my hopes.

I dislike almost all of the episodic women he was with, mostly because he was out of character for some reason when interested in them (spores, regression due to going back in time, etc). I understand the necessity of some kind of catalyst to temporarily modify his behavior, and it's fun to watch, but it does little for long-term interest. Also, they seemed rather bland as characters (I'm thinking specifically of Droxine, Zarabeth, and Leila). All blonde and soft-focused and smiling like lovesick puppies. I don't mind sweet, innocent characters, but come on, girls. You have to work harder than that if you want to keep a Vulcan after he's come down from outside influence.

Yup, so true!

FYI, Spock gets much higher quality nookie in the books.

I always thought S/U would've been a great development in TOS, but Paramount was much too timid for that - heck, they had a hemorhage over the K/U kiss. That, BTW, was originally to be a S/U smooch.

Rackon, yes, they weren't brave enough for that. I can't helo thinking that Spock and Uhura had a couple of blatantly flirtatious scenes in the first few episodes, but then they barely had meaningfull dialogue together in the rest of the show, with just little hints of attraction... Maybe someone in the network didn't like what they saw. Is it a coincidence that the only one of the male character in the Enterprise crew who was openly shown to be attracted to Uhura was Sulu? Not one of the white guys.

Tribbles, you hit the nail on the head... Most female characters in TOS were not written as particularly interesting or strong, with some exceptions. That's exactly why I always liked Spock/Uhura, I saw a spark there that I didn't see with Chapel, or most of the other females he was paired up with.

And while I loved episodes like "This Side of Paradise" and "All Our Yesterdays", the disposable love interest mechanism was always rather lame. You always knew that Kirk, Spock and McCoy had to remain single, so whatever happened, the woman had to disappear by the end of the episode and never come back, never to be mentioned again. So, for instance, whenever Kirk would actually fall in love, the love interest had to die, or turn out to be a serial killer or something like that. With Spock, the outside influence plots allowed them to show Spock's emotional side, but it was also the way for the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it. We could see Spock fall in love and be passionate and romantic, many fans, particularly females ones, would love it and cry their eyes out, but at the end they could just hit the reset button and Spock would be back to his usual self. It's really not surprising that Star Trek gave rise to so much slash - the relationships between main male characters were the only enduring relationships, and they were also far more interesting than most of the romances on the show, since female characters were so lame for the most part.

With Chapel, they could have her as a recurring character because it was written more like unrequited love, and she was written as character who would always carry a torch for Spock instead of either moving on or trying to do something about it (she didn't even use the chance when she did get it, in "Amok Time"), which allowed them to have that ongoing storyline without it ever being resolved one way or the other.

Out of Spock's love interests, Droxine was the worst IMO and I was totally unconvinced by that episode, especially since Spock was in complete control of his emotions at the time. But if he hadn't been, she wasn't someone I could see him interested in, she was just a pampered little princess and didn't seem incredibly smart, special, and (IMO) not even that attractive as she was supposed to be.

Zarabeth was OK (she wasn't all that innocent really, she was lying to Spock to keep him with her, understandably) but it seemed like the main reason Spock liked her (besides the very fact that she was just there while he had no control over strong emotions) was because she was so lonely, something he could relate to. The two of them finding each other like that was a moving story, but I can't help thinking that in some other circumstances, they might not have been interested in each other at all. (I've already mentioned why Spock fell in love with her, and on her part, well, Spock and McCoy were the only people she had seen for years,or was likely to see till the end of her life). Leila was just as you described her, all sweet and tender and smiling in a lovesick way. TSPO is one of my favourite TOS episodes, but Leila wasn't interesting by herself at all, though the story about her and Spock was. I thought that he had had some feelings for her before, but he was probably not even fully aware of it, and the spores allowed him toshow it and made him realize what he felt. But, it seemed like they could never really have a relationship in regular circumstances when Spock was anything like himself. She probably wanted him always to be the way he was when he was happy spore-infected Spock. Unlike Amanda or Perrin, who could have a relationship with Sarek, a Vulcan who doesn't show his feelings the way humans are used to, and understand what was behind that facade and that he really did love them, Leila might have needed to a lot more, a more open display of affection, which Spock normally wasn't able to give. In any case, these episodes were moving, but I never got the impression that Spock fell in love with them because any of those women were all that special or that it was a case of "true love", it seemed like all those strong suppressed emotions in Spock had to come out once he lost emotional control, and those women were there, they loved him and had enough attractive qualities to become the object of those emotions.

The Romulan Commander was the most interesting one, although I didn't find the romantic plot 100% convincing. I do think he liked her, though - he did say he "hoped" that they had "shared something".

 

[Commander Rabbit]

No triangles, please! I voted for Uhura. Chapel was kind of dull.

 

[indranee]

it's all in the writing and the acting. they could, if they wanted to, give Chapel a lot more than she had before in terms of personality.

that is, of course, if they wanted to use her.

 

[Tribbles]

indranee, I like the Romulan commander okay, but I've only seen clips from that episode. Since I haven't watched the whole episode yet, I felt it would be premature for me to comment on her. She seems more interesting from what I saw! I'll have to get back to you on it, though.

It's really not surprising that Star Trek gave rise to so much slash - the relationships between main male characters were the only enduring relationships, and they were also far more interesting than most of the romances on the show, since female characters were so lame for the most part.

I hadn't considered the prominence of slash in the Trek fandom in those terms before, but I think you're absolutely right. There's little romantic tension when fans are aware of the inevitable reset button that will come at the end of an episode with a female-of-the-week, whereas we get to watch the boys develop relationships over multiple seasons. Like you, I enjoyed TSOP and All Our Yesterdays too, but I enjoyed them for the novelty of watching Spock behave uncharacteristically; the girls are rather innocuous. To be fair, though, I guess Leila was also under the influence of the spores. Do you think when she is free of them, she also manages to escape the fuzzy lens through which she is often filmed?

With Chapel, they could have her as a recurring character because it was written more like unrequited love, and she was written as character who would always carry a torch for Spock instead of either moving on or trying to do something about it (she didn't even use the chance when she did get it, in "Amok Time"), which allowed them to have that ongoing storyline without it ever being resolved one way or the other.

When I saw that scene in Amok Time, I scratched my head. Christine, did you not understand his innuendo, dear? Well, let us never say she isn't a woman of integrity, at least! Unwilling to take advantage of the commander's delicate situation, apparently...

Out of Spock's love interests, Droxine was the worst IMO and I was totally unconvinced by that episode, especially since Spock was in complete control of his emotions at the time. But if he hadn't been, she wasn't someone I could see him interested in, she was just a pampered little princess and didn't seem incredibly smart, special, and (IMO) not even that attractive as she was supposed to be.

I watched that episode after you mentioned it in another thread, and I was also surprised, to say the least. I really couldn't see how she would merit special attention from Spock. If Kirk was drawn to her, I wouldn't think twice about it. She was a cute girl, makeup and being far too thin aside. But she did seem to be a naive, sheltered princess, and I don't see Spock finding himself enthralled with such a person. His talk to her about pon farr blew me away. I thought it was supposed to be a very private subject that Vulcans hesitate to discuss even among themselves. It seems inappropriate to discuss with an evidently impressionable young girl, at any rate, and I think it's out of character for Spock to be so bold in that regard.

Zarabeth was OK (she wasn't all that innocent really, she was lying to Spock to keep him with her, understandably) but it seemed like the main reason Spock liked her (besides the very fact that she was just there while he had no control over strong emotions) was because she was so lonely, something he could relate to. The two of them finding each other like that was a moving story, but I can't help thinking that in some other circumstances, they might not have been interested in other at all.

I guess you're right. Her little cavewoman outfit wasn't all that innocent either (though I can't deny that she rocked it!). To be shallow, I thought she was the loveliest of all Spock's ladies, and I did feel the most sorry for her. What a horrible situation! At least he could relate to her loneliness, as you pointed out. I'm not sure about what he could connect with the other girls.

I'll watch the episode with the Romulan commander soon.

 

[indranee]

you guys should read Yesterday's Son by A.C Crispin. it takes off from where All Our Yesterdays leaves off.

oh, and that novel was so successful it had a little sequel of its own!

Tribbles, Christine always struck me as someone who was afraid of taking Spock up at that obvious innuendo/pass. maybe because she knew he wasn't thinking straight. she did look a bit embarrassed and Nimoy played it to the max with the "hmm?". good stuff! love Amok Time!

 

[Aashlee]

I like Spock-Uhura best because of how they wrote Uhura in the new timeline. She's the serious, driven, brainy type that would appeal to him, so it makes sense to me. Also, as Zach Quinto said, she is his emotional canvas, so she helps us learn more about Spock. Otherwise Spock has a way of holing up into himself, especially at this point when he doesn't know Kirk and McCoy well enough to let them bring out parts of his personality.

Overall, though, I'm with Jeri. Chapel-Spock was interesting in the original timeline. Spock-Uhura works in this one. I have no problem with both existing.

 

[Cassy4]

Cassy, I don't remember ever reading this, but it doesn't mean JJ didn't say it. Do you have a link?

The way the actors played it, it seemed to me that they were already lovers...or certainly IN love with each other, requited or otherwise. The scene in the shuttle hanger certainly implies a sexual relationship. Also, their interactions and body language in most scenes seems to support a serious relationship(e.g. as Spock hurries from the bridge to beam down to Vulcan).

When I first saw the movie my first impression also was that they were in a serious relationship before getting on the enterprise. Perhaps, though, they were in love and just hadn't become romantically involved yet? I'll try to find the interview and post a link for you.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Here's a little something from Orci & Kurtzman on the Spock-Uhura-Chapel thing...

Kurtzman: The Uhura-Spock relationship actually evolved a little differently because we'd originally done a Spock-Nurse Chapel storyline, and the gag was that Nurse Chapel was totally in love with Spock and he wasn't giving her the time of day. I think what happened was when we came to the context of what he loses at the midpoint of the movie, we felt like he genuinely needed to be comforted by somebody in a way that I think the audience wished he would be. And, keeping in line with the idea that you are in a parallel universe, and yet we want to make homage to -

Orci: The first interracial kiss between Kirk and Uhura. So it was an interspecies kiss.

Kurtzman: Some things could be similar, and some things could be different, so it just felt like a really, no pun intended, logical mirror to Kirk and Uhura.

Orci: That was scary. We were like, oh my God, are fans going to kill us?

Kurtzman: For sure. We talked about it a lot, and J.J. was the one who said, "you've got to do it," and he kind of gave us the confidence to know that we could take the leap.

http://www.cinematical.com/2009/05/07/interview-star-trek-writers-alex-kurtzman-and-roberto-orci/

 

[Jeri]

Thanks for the link, Salvor.

 

[SalvorHardin]

No problem Jeri.
Here's a little something more...

Saldana described the moment she learned about it:

They locked us in the office at Bad Robot, so that we could read the script, and I dropped it and grabbed my Blackberry and kept saying, "This man's crazy! J.J.'s out of his mind. I'm not that aware about Star Trek, but I do know that [Spock and Uhura] never mingled. It's crazy!" But once I finished the script, it just made so much sense. They have the most similar characteristics. I almost feel like she had this admiration for Spock because he was older and sort of like a teacher, and there was this crush or platonic infatuation with someone that's wiser, wittier, handsome and had pointy ears. Why not?
​

Quinto went on to explain what he felt it meant to baby Spock to have this outlet.

The relationship between Spock and Uhura, that dynamic provides a lot of levity and humor between Kirk and Spock and between Kirk and Uhura. But between Spock and Uhura, I think it actually represents a depth, whereby Uhura is almost a canvas onto whom Spock can project the emotion that he is not able to express himself.
​

But of course Leonard Nimoy felt left out by Young Spock's conquest:

Frankly, I was extremely jealous of his scenes with Zoe Saldana, and I think it's totally unfair that I never got to do that. I will never forgive the writers and the director, for having put me in this position, to have to be watching that, rather than participating.
​

http://io9.com/5231407/the-romance-that-changed-star-trek-forever

 

[Jeri]

That's our Nimoy! Thanks.

 

[trampledamage]

Nimoy is fantastic!

 

[indranee]

No problem Jeri.
Here's a little something more...

Saldana described the moment she learned about it:

They locked us in the office at Bad Robot, so that we could read the script, and I dropped it and grabbed my Blackberry and kept saying, "This man's crazy! J.J.'s out of his mind. I'm not that aware about Star Trek, but I do know that [Spock and Uhura] never mingled. It's crazy!" But once I finished the script, it just made so much sense. They have the most similar characteristics. I almost feel like she had this admiration for Spock because he was older and sort of like a teacher, and there was this crush or platonic infatuation with someone that's wiser, wittier, handsome and had pointy ears. Why not?
​

Quinto went on to explain what he felt it meant to baby Spock to have this outlet.

The relationship between Spock and Uhura, that dynamic provides a lot of levity and humor between Kirk and Spock and between Kirk and Uhura. But between Spock and Uhura, I think it actually represents a depth, whereby Uhura is almost a canvas onto whom Spock can project the emotion that he is not able to express himself.
​

But of course Leonard Nimoy felt left out by Young Spock's conquest:

Frankly, I was extremely jealous of his scenes with Zoe Saldana, and I think it's totally unfair that I never got to do that. I will never forgive the writers and the director, for having put me in this position, to have to be watching that, rather than participating.
​

http://io9.com/5231407/the-romance-that-changed-star-trek-forever

@ Len Nimoy!!

oh and thanks Salvor!

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

When I saw the thread title "Shipper war..." I was afraid to come in here. (I went through the ENT shipper wars. ) But I'm glad I looked in. First thread I've ventured into regarding Spock/Uhura, and it's interesting to see what folks think.

It worked for me in the film, for the reasons the writers discussed, and I'm hoping it will be followed up on in future films. And this is from a longtime TOS fan, who thought the Spock/Christine unrequited love in that show was quite poignant overall.

Thanks for the links, Salvor. Nimoy's comment was perfect!

 

[JustKate]

See, I am also a long-time fan, but I had and have no patience with all that y-e-a-r-r-r-r-r-r-ning Chapel did. It's just so weak and poor-little-woman-ish. I know that's partly because it was filmed in the 1960s, and that was typical of the time, but now? No. Or at least it shouldn't be. Yes, I know that even now in the 21st century, people still yearn after those they want but cannot have, and people presumably will in the 23rd century, too. But when it's a woman yearning after The Unapproachable Male, it's almost always dull and hackneyed. At least IMO.

So they needed to do something different - and why not Uhura? I admit it jolted me, not because of race but because it was Spock! and Uhura! SpockandUhura! UhuraandSpock! But who says a jolt is a bad thing? Not me, at least not in this case.

If they'd made it Chapel, it I would have hoped to God that we would have had something besides y-e-a-r-r-r-r-r-r-ning.

As for the question of Spock having a relationship at all, I was against it at first, but that was until I realized that we are simply talking about a series of movies here. I mean, I might have found it tedious in a TV show (mostly because most TV, and that includes Trek, is not good at showing long-term romances, and I lose patience with all that break-up-get-back-together stuff that TV is addicted to), but in a movie...it might work very well. It did in this one, for example, although I'm hoping in the next one we get to see more of Uhura as an officer rather than as a love-interest.

 

[M'Sharak]

When I saw the thread title "Shipper war..." I was afraid to come in here.

Heh.

 

[DevilEyes]

Heh. If it was a war, it's obvious which side is winning. I am pleasantly surprised by the results of this poll, after all the whining and fuming over Spock/Uhura storyline that I've seen on IMDB and all sorts of other places, with some people crying "OMG what about Chapel?!", others mad over Spock having a love interest at all and being "too emotional", and others shouting that Uhura should not be involved with anyone, especially not Spock, because it apparently "reduces" her, or hurts her dignity (? ). Not to mention those who just throw in slurs and offensive comments about Uhura that I won't bother to repeat. I guess, similar as with people who hate the movie, one can get the wrong impression that there are more people with negative opinions than there really are.

See, I am also a long-time fan, but I had and have no patience with all that y-e-a-r-r-r-r-r-r-ning Chapel did. It's just so weak and poor-little-woman-ish. I know that's partly because it was filmed in the 1960s, and that was typical of the time, but now? No. Or at least it shouldn't be. Yes, I know that even now in the 21st century, people still yearn after those they want but cannot have, and people presumably will in the 23rd century, too. But when it's a woman yearning after The Unapproachable Male, it's almost always dull and hackneyed. At least IMO.

QFT. But I have to say I generally dislike endless storylines about unrequited love, whatever the genders involved.

Nimoy is fantastic!

And here's more from Nimoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYvHloEVjpw

 

[Anika Hanson]

Spock and Uhura are more interesting that Spock and nurse chapel.