Ship of the Line by Diane Carey

[tomswift2002]

With the B5 DVD's and downloads, you have to remember that the way Warner Brothers created the widescreen versions of the graphics was to crop 4:3 480i image to a 16:9 240i image and the upconvert and de interlace to 480p, with your TV and playback device further upconverting that, especially HDTV's to 720p/1080i/1080p.

But Idran with Picard's comment I would disagree that he was referring to the Vulcans, as he mentions that first contact occured "centuries" ago, but between that and when the Federation and Klingons were at peace were after "decades of war", and in the interim the Federation had drafted the Prime Directive and put it into force. And I don't think he was talking about a war that took centuries as in 200 or 2000 years. So, I'm pretty sure Picard was referring to human-Klingon first Contact. And the Prime Directive was not enacted till sometime after the 2160's as the Horizon had left material behind that had contaminated a planet 100 years before "A Piece Of The Action", in clear violation of the PD, but apparently not during the time of Horizon's visit.

 

[Idran]

but yeah there's nothing on any Trek series anywhere near the awful visual effect that is a Vorlon ship.

It was pretty impressive at the time, IIRC. Didn't it actually have moving patterns on its hull? That was something that had never been done before, that was only possible with CGI. At the time, Foundation Imaging's effects for B5 were pretty breathtaking compared to what we'd seen before on television. As I recall, the only things I felt they did poorly were fluid/gas effects like thruster exhaust. Maybe the resolution makes the effects look bad on a modern HDTV, but in the standard-definition video of the '90s, they were really impressive and groundbreaking.

Fair enough! I admit that the garishness might be putting me off too; it's such a loud design. But yeah, the resolution might also be a factor; I've noticed some stairstepping on edges here and there.

B5 itself (as in the station) does still hold up pretty well, for what it's worth. Was it a model, or was it also CG?

 

[Christopher]

^The effects in Babylon 5 were 100 percent CGI. It was, I'm pretty sure, the first SFTV show to abandon miniatures entirely in favor of CG models.

As I recall, Foundation Imaging's work for B5 and later shows was based on a piece of software (and hardware?) called the Video Toaster, which allowed creating CG animation far more swiftly and inexpensively than had been possible before, and totally revolutionized TV SF/fantasy by allowing far more elaborate visuals than had been achievable on TV budgets before. It was a major contributor to the SFTV boom of the '90s. And B5 was where it all started.

 

[diankra]

IIRC, the video toaster was a group of networked Amigas... single ones were already being used for static visuals like logos, but networking several to produce affordable moving CGI was a breakthrough idea.

 

[Christopher]

Now that I think back on it, even at the time, it was evident that the Video Toaster effects lacked the resolution of physical miniature effects. But that was more than made up for by the greater versatility and freedom of movement and composition, and the much greater number and variety of VFX shots that the Toaster allowed a TV show to use per episode.

 

[Avro Arrow]

See this thread: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=208597

Starting at post #169 for excerpts.

Ah, thanks for those!

(A thread you posted in!)

Um, er... well, it was two years ago. I probably won't remember this thread either when we revisit this topic in the spring of 2017...

 

[Stevil2001]

I don't think Picard can have been talking about human-Klingon first contact, though, because covert surveillance actually would not have helped in that situation.

PICARD: It was my error, not hers. Chancellor, there is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact. We never know what we will face when we open the door on a new world, how we will be greeted, what exactly the dangers will be. Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then we would do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. I believe it prevented more problems than it created.

Humanity didn't "open the door on a new world" in "Broken Bow"--the Klingons crashed on Earth at a time when Klingons were already a warp-capable civilization! Whatever Picard was referring to must have preceded "Broken Bow."

 

[Idran]

And to stave off one argument, even before Enterprise had established anything it couldn't have referred to Human-Klingon relations as there had never been a state of war between us. Not unless you wanted to posit a decades-long war between humans and Klingons some time between 2063 and 2161 that had just never otherwise been mentioned. Post-Federation there was no state of war until "Errand of Mercy", that's why it was such a huge deal that the Federation had officially declared war there. We were certainly at odds with one another, but it was purely a cold war outside the occasional skirmish.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

but yeah there's nothing on any Trek series anywhere near the awful visual effect that is a Vorlon ship.

BEHOLD.

And make your peace.

 

[Christopher]

Resolution aside, that Vorlon ship was a pretty revolutionary design. In addition to the animated patterns on the hull, it would've been difficult to pull off those thin tendril thingies in a scale model, since they would've broken off pretty easily and been hard to mold. It could've been done, probably, but it would've been way too expensive and fiddly for TV.

 

[Idran]

Looking at that image, it really is the texture for me more than the model itself. Even without resolution issues, I'm sorry, but that's just one ugly texture to me.

That's probably why the station looks so much better to me, it's just got a much better texture. And similar deal for other ships, the more I think about it; Shadow ships definitely look great even today, for example. Those colors on the Vorlon ship, though.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Resolution aside, that Vorlon ship was a pretty revolutionary design. In addition to the animated patterns on the hull, it would've been difficult to pull off those thin tendril thingies in a scale model, since they would've broken off pretty easily and been hard to mold. It could've been done, probably, but it would've been way too expensive and fiddly for TV.

B5 had some wonderful, inventive ship designs. There were points of similarity where it counted for consistent worldbuilding - you could see, for example, how human, Narn and Centauri capital ships were built on similar principles (and were likely borrowing from one another's influence), but the show really went out of its way to be imaginative. We had ships that were more vertically orientated, like the Minbari or Brakiri cruisers; really elegant and graceful shapes, like the organic Vorlon designs or the spindly Shadow vessels. Not everything is original, admittedly - the Drazi fleet is deliberately Liberator-esque and the Vree have classic flying saucers - but it all adds to the diversity. It's all very colourful and arresting; most franchise universes seem to have almost interchangeable grey and white bricks for spacecraft - or maybe I'm simply not watching a wide enough selection.

Still, Trek is pretty good for ship creativity in my opinion - most of the ships play to a set design (horizontal orientation, twin engine nacelles, mounted one either side) but that at least makes the universe feel consistent, that something about those vessels appeals to the underlying physics of this universe. And there's a lot of variation within that uber-design.

 

[Christopher]

Looking at that image, it really is the texture for me more than the model itself. Even without resolution issues, I'm sorry, but that's just one ugly texture to me.

Well, it's supposed to be a profoundly alien design. The Vorlons were meant to be strange beyond comprehension. So if the design seems wrong and uncomfortable to you, that arguably means it's doing what it was supposed to do.

 

[Idran]

Looking at that image, it really is the texture for me more than the model itself. Even without resolution issues, I'm sorry, but that's just one ugly texture to me.

Well, it's supposed to be a profoundly alien design. The Vorlons were meant to be strange beyond comprehension. So if the design seems wrong and uncomfortable to you, that arguably means it's doing what it was supposed to do.

Haha, fair enough, though I wouldn't say it seems wrong and uncomfortable, exactly. I think I can see what the designers were going for. It looks like they wanted something that looked natural, something reminiscent of animal or insect coloration, to fit the organic nature of Vorlon technology. I just don't really think it came off well.

I didn't mean to turn this into B5 CGI bashing, though. They did do a lot good, it's just this one example that puts me off.

 

[Ithekro]

It's all very colourful and arresting; most franchise universes seem to have almost interchangeable grey and white bricks for spacecraft - or maybe I'm simply not watching a wide enough selection.

And yet the Earth capital ship are basically grey bricks in Babylon 5. Wonderful brinks mind you. But still bricks with engines.

 

[tomswift2002]

I don't think Picard can have been talking about human-Klingon first contact, though, because covert surveillance actually would not have helped in that situation.

PICARD: It was my error, not hers. Chancellor, there is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact. We never know what we will face when we open the door on a new world, how we will be greeted, what exactly the dangers will be. Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then we would do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. I believe it prevented more problems than it created.

Humanity didn't "open the door on a new world" in "Broken Bow"--the Klingons crashed on Earth at a time when Klingons were already a warp-capable civilization! Whatever Picard was referring to must have preceded "Broken Bow."

In that quote Picard doesn't mention the Federation. And, besides the Klingons, Picard doesn't mention other race, and in the same scene, it is only the Prime Minister and Picard in the room, a Melkorian and a human, and if Picard had meant the Vulcans or another race, he would said "Centuries ago, a disastrous contact, by the Vulcans (insert race name), with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war." Instead he doesn't mention what race had the contact, merely resting on the Melkorian Prime Minister, and us, to understand that he was referring to a contact between humans and Klingons. A contact that Brannon Braga and Berman screwed up with their script.

Or the other option is that Enterprise does not exist in the same universe as TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager, but it does exist in the same universe as Star Trek'09 and Into Darkness.

ANd Christopher, at the same time that Babylon 5 was using the Video Toaster, seaQuest DSV was also using the Video Toaster for it's CGI shots.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I don't think Picard can have been talking about human-Klingon first contact, though, because covert surveillance actually would not have helped in that situation.

PICARD: It was my error, not hers. Chancellor, there is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact. We never know what we will face when we open the door on a new world, how we will be greeted, what exactly the dangers will be. Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then we would do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. I believe it prevented more problems than it created.

Humanity didn't "open the door on a new world" in "Broken Bow"--the Klingons crashed on Earth at a time when Klingons were already a warp-capable civilization! Whatever Picard was referring to must have preceded "Broken Bow."

In that quote Picard doesn't mention the Federation. And, besides the Klingons, Picard doesn't mention other race, and in the same scene, it is only the Prime Minister and Picard in the room, a Melkorian and a human, and if Picard had meant the Vulcans or another race, he would said "Centuries ago, a disastrous contact, by the Vulcans (insert race name), with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war." Instead he doesn't mention what race had the contact, merely resting on the Melkorian Prime Minister, and us, to understand that he was referring to a contact between humans and Klingons. A contact that Brannon Braga and Berman screwed up with their script.

Or the other option is that Enterprise does not exist in the same universe as TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager, but it does exist in the same universe as Star Trek'09 and Into Darkness.

ANd Christopher, at the same time that Babylon 5 was using the Video Toaster, seaQuest DSV was also using the Video Toaster for it's CGI shots.

Picard also repeatedly is keeping things relatively simplified throughout that episode, because this is Durkin's first contact with aliens, with people from other worlds, and his cultural mindset says that his people are the center of creation. It's really easy to believe that Picard is referring to a Federation member world's first contact with Klingons, but not being specific because he's aware that Durkin is just beginning to accept aliens like Picard, let alone the 150 species of the Federation.

There have also been numerous contradictions within canon - there's a lot established in DS9 and Voyager alone that runs counter to things from the early seasons TNG. Even TNG isn't entirely compatible with itself. I mean, TNG's fourth season says that during the first season, there was apparently a war going on with the Cardassians that was never discussed. The Trill symbionts are kept a closely guarded secret in TNG's 'The Host,' while a year and a half later on DS9, symbionts are public knowledge across the Federation, to the point where they have a major organization known as the SYMBIOSIS Commission. Trek canon has never been entirely internally consistent.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

It's all very colourful and arresting; most franchise universes seem to have almost interchangeable grey and white bricks for spacecraft - or maybe I'm simply not watching a wide enough selection.

And yet the Earth capital ship are basically grey bricks in Babylon 5. Wonderful brinks mind you. But still bricks with engines.

True. The Earth Alliance has a utilitarian and bare-bones/brute force aesthetic (particularly post-Minbari War, notably; the older Hyperions are quite smooth and graceful).

 

[Idran]

In that quote Picard doesn't mention the Federation. And, besides the Klingons, Picard doesn't mention other race, and in the same scene, it is only the Prime Minister and Picard in the room, a Melkorian and a human, and if Picard had meant the Vulcans or another race, he would said "Centuries ago, a disastrous contact, by the Vulcans (insert race name), with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war."

I'm from Oregon; would you say I was being incorrect if I talked about our involvement in the War of 1812 since Oregon wasn't a state yet? Or even more relevant, if I talked about our relationship with England before the Revolutionary War? We weren't involved at all, after all, only they were. Because that's pretty equivalent to what you're saying here; that Picard wouldn't consider pre-Federation Vulcan history as relevant because he personally isn't Vulcan, even though there's a line of historical continuity from Vulcan history to Federation history even when Earth wasn't involved exactly as much as there's a line of historical continuity from the 13 Colonies' history to the United States' history even when Oregon wasn't involved.

And again, I have to ask: when would you put this war between Humans and Klingons before Enterprise was created? Chronologically, when do you claim it happened in your personal Trek timeline? It couldn't be post-founding of the Federation because the Federation was never at war with the Klingons before "First Contact" beyond a few hours in 2267 before the Organians stepped in; certainly not for decades. So are you really going to say that there was a decades-long war that Earth had with one of the most prominent non-human races in Star Trek pre-Federation that just never got mentioned at any point beyond one line by Picard in one episode? Is that really more parsimonious an explanation to you?

Seasons 1 and 2 of TNG mentioned more than once that the Klingons were part of the Federation, does that mean that later TNG isn't really part of the same timeline? Jadzia looked nothing like Odan, does that mean that DS9 is a different timeline?

 

[Christopher]

Picard's line was, "Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war." He does not say whose contact it was. It's purely due to ethnocentrism that fans tend to assume he was speaking of humans; there's no actual evidence to support that belief.

If anything, the fact that he says "a disastrous contact," rather than "my people's disastrous contact" or "our disastrous contact" or the like, suggests that he's thinking about it from a certain remove, and thus that it wasn't his own people's contact. Now, the scriptwriter probably was assuming he meant humanity, but the sentence as phrased is arguably more compatible with it being some other race.

And it made sense to me that it would be the Vulcans, hence my attributing it to them in A Choice of Futures. After all, pre-ENT, the Vulcan High Command maintained an active military presence in this region of space, and a somewhat aggressive one compared to what they became after the Syrannite reforms, as seen in their ongoing conflict with the Andorians. It was presumably the Vulcan fleet's control of this region of space that protected Earth from being raided or conquered by the Klingons. So it stands to reason that the Vulcans and Klingons would've had a history of conflict.